EUCs can be dangerous

[Tawpie]

Just a suggestion... there was a very long thread where we went through this agony. Perhaps, if you must relive it, post there? I don't see a need to revisit it in yet another thread.

 

Edited March 16, 2022 by Tawpie

[Paul A]

That thread has been locked.

The video by 'Live' has shown he was another rider involved in the incident.

It illustrates that it was not the actions of just one rogue rider 'Turbo'.

It illustrates that there seems to be a sub culture within the NYC riders.  A group of reckless riders.

The videos show that the topic of the dangers of EUC's, can be materially contributed to by the behaviour of irresponsible riders.

Irresponsible behaviour is something that can be controlled.

Dangers of EUCs are not confined just to the rider....the general public at large can also be at risk.

[supercurio]

15 minutes ago, Paul A said:

That thread has been locked.

The video by 'Live' has shown he was another rider involved in the incident.

It illustrates that it was not the actions of just one rogue rider 'Turbo'.

It illustrates that there seems to be a sub culture within the NYC riders.  A group of reckless riders.

The videos show that the topic of the dangers of EUC's, can be materially contributed to by the behaviour of irresponsible riders.

Irresponsible behaviour is something that can be controlled.

Dangers of EUCs are not confined just to the rider....the general public at large can also be at risk.

Then maybe time for a thread #2?

I also noticed that you are bringing the Alley Cat topic in various other threads - although if it can be mostly off-topic in their context.
Example: like the other day when I was trying to de-escalate and extract info from evX

I understand why however, since it was highlighting double standards, and the intent is legitimate. Ideally tho not every discussion turns into an alley cat rant, like it would become an EUC Forum Godwin's law.

And now it's me being out of topic, sorry about that.

[BKW]

OK, sorry. Will keep this thread on topic from here on out

[Skeptikos]

26 minutes ago, Paul A said:

That thread has been locked.

The video by 'Live' has shown he was another rider involved in the incident.

It illustrates that it was not the actions of just one rogue rider 'Turbo'.

It illustrates that there seems to be a sub culture within the NYC riders.  A group of reckless riders.

The videos show that the topic of the dangers of EUC's, can be materially contributed to by the behaviour of irresponsible riders.

Irresponsible behaviour is something that can be controlled.

Dangers of EUCs are not confined just to the rider....the general public at large can also be at risk.

No, I agree with Paul A, who is obviously the most rational poster on this entire forum. We should talk about this, again. (And again, and again, for the next 10 years at least.)

Lots of riders have hit pedestrians, and that's bad. So it's great that we have the examples of Live and Turbo, who have shown us how to ride "recklessly" without hitting a single person. I myself have had a closer call, when some kids jumped out from behind a parked car in front of me, which makes me a literal babykiller. So it makes sense to me that we should keep posting this video until non-NYC riders can learn how to not hit pedestrians anymore.

Unfortunately we're far away from the day when non-NYC riders stop hitting pedestrians, which means Paul A will have to post this again, and again, many many times. Maybe for the rest of his life. But it's all worth it if it saves even a single pedestrian from non-NYC riders.

[Paul A]

A YouTuber made that incident the teaser of a video.

The multitude of viewer comments expressing concerns were ridiculed, denigrated and treated with contempt by the YouTuber.

A major sponsor publicly called to be removed from the video.

In the follow up video announcing the discontinuation of the channel, there was no remorse, no contrition, no apology.

A blank black screen followed for several minutes.

The screen then resumed, showing a group of NYC riders flipping their middle fingers at the camera in an unmistakable signal.

 

That YouTuber has since recently resumed the channel.

Perhaps that YouTuber and the group of NYC riders should modify their attitudes and behaviour towards the safety of others.

[Mango]

22 minutes ago, Skeptikos said:

We should talk about this, again. (And again, and again, for the next 10 years at least.)

It’s the gift that keeps on giving. Sort of like Hillary Clinton’s vote for the Iraq war.

Always good to be reminded on NYC riders’ antics, as more people join the EUC scene. NPS.

[Skeptikos]

15 minutes ago, Paul A said:

A YouTuber made that incident the teaser of a video.

The multitude of viewer comments expressing concerns were ridiculed, denigrated and treated with contempt by the YouTuber.

A major sponsor publicly called to be removed from the video.

In the follow up video announcing the discontinuation of the channel, there was no remorse, no contrition, no apology.

A blank black screen followed for several minutes.

The screen then resumed, showing a group of NYC riders flipping their middle fingers at the camera in an unmistakable signal.

 

That YouTuber has since recently resumed the channel.

Perhaps that YouTuber and the group of NYC riders should modify their attitudes and behaviour towards the safety of others.

Heck yeah. Middle fingers are way better than hitting pedestrians, which that Youtuber (Mick/EvX) has not done, and neither has anyone in the video. We should all strive to be more like Mick.

No Paul, dropping the sarcasm, it's clear that you, and other commenters who can't let this go, have little concern about pedestrian safety. Why aren't you posting daily about the terrible subculture of riders in the Philippines, where a rider killed a grandma? Why aren't you harassing the riders who have actually, literally hit people?

Instead you're offended because a youtuber gave you the finger. You're unhealthily obsessed with how a small group of New Yorkers are rude to you.

We get it. You don't like them. Maybe you should post their videos 1000 more times just in case we didn't notice that you don't like them. Let's make every thread on the forum about how you don't like Mick because he gave you the finger.

[Paul A]

The concern is not a group of riders giving the middle finger in a YouTube video.

The concern is that the group by giving the middle finger, shows that they are unrepentant in their attitudes and behaviour.

Two riders speeding through a red light at a pedestrian crossing, nearly hit a little girl and her mother.

This group of particular NYC riders are unrepentant.

The recent video by 'Live' evidences that.

[Skeptikos]

1 hour ago, Paul A said:

The concern is not a group of riders giving the middle finger in a YouTube video.

The concern is that the group by giving the middle finger, shows that they are unrepentant in their attitudes and behaviour.

Two riders speeding through a red light at a pedestrian crossing, nearly hit a little girl and her mother.

This group of particular NYC riders are unrepentant.

The recent video by 'Live' evidences that.

I'm not following this, Paul. Are you talking about the video where he hits the car, where the car was at fault? Or are you talking about the birthday video? In both, they're riding in the street, not around pedestrians, and I saw no pedestrians in danger.

Most cases of pedestrians getting hurt that I've heard about happened on the sidewalk (the Filipino grandma is a sad exception), and it looks like Live generally rides on the street. It's not clear at all why you think these two videos are related to pedestrians.

Instead, I get the impression that you've been cyberstalking this group of NYC riders for over a year due to your grudge about them being rude to you, and for some reason you feel the need to post about them every day, maybe due to some kind of emotional problem you have. I honestly don't see how this has anything to do with pedestrians, at all.

Quick edit: Seriously, what's the original beef with Live even supposed to be again? That he was in the same video as another guy who maybe came close to hitting someone? Come on

Edited March 17, 2022 by Skeptikos

[Paul A]

'Live' came close to hitting the little girl and her mother on the pedestrian crossing. 

He was not merely in the same video as another guy who came close to hitting someone.

 

Riding backwards in the street, in heavy traffic, treating public roads as a playground....

It is endangering other road users.

Squeezing through narrow gaps between cars is endangering other road users.

Riding through red lights is endangering other road users.

Riding on the wrong side of the road is endangering other road users.

 

 

[Skeptikos]

17 minutes ago, Paul A said:

'Live' came close to hitting the little girl and her mother on the pedestrian crossing. 

He was not merely in the same video as another guy who came close to hitting someone.

If I recall correctly, the person who came close to the little girl was Turbo, not Live. I remember because we literally spent 3 ridiculous months discussing it, and Live was not the subject of discussion. So something tells me you're exaggerating about this, in a way that's not entirely honest.

 

19 minutes ago, Paul A said:

Riding backwards in the street, in heavy traffic, treating public roads as a playground....

It is endangering other road users.

Squeezing through narrow gaps between cars is endangering other road users.

Riding through red lights is endangering other road users.

Riding on the wrong side of the road is endangering other road users.

Let's be empirical. How many "other road users" has Live sent to the hospital?

As far as I know, zero.

Heck, let's expand the question. Has any car driver ever been injured by reckless unicycle riding? I don't think so. I think this concern is completely farcical.

At this point I sincerely can't tell if you have delusional beliefs about cars, or if you're making up nonsense about people you're mad at.

[techyiam]

2 hours ago, Paul A said:

'Live' came close to hitting the little girl and her mother on the pedestrian crossing. 

He was not merely in the same video as another guy who came close to hitting someone.

 

Riding backwards in the street, in heavy traffic, treating public roads as a playground....

It is endangering other road users.

Squeezing through narrow gaps between cars is endangering other road users.

Riding through red lights is endangering other road users.

Riding on the wrong side of the road is endangering other road users.

 

Sorry, but I had a different take on this. I had to watch the video more than once, and even slow down the playback speed.

I am only basing on what I saw and can make out in the video. Plus, I am not familiar with the euc scene in NYC.

Strictly based on this video, I cannot agree that the euc riders were endangering others who were also sharing the use of the road. You can say some of the euc riders were bold, and perhaps even riding offensively, and going through red lights, but they appeared skilled, in control, and riding in their comfort zone, and not in reckless way either. It is also possible that one rider in particular was doing a little show for the camera. At the crosswalk, while going through the red light, the rider did not approach the pedestrians with total abandonment, but rather he appeared he had full awareness of the traffic around him, including both pedestrians and motor vehicles and rode accordingly. True, he was crossing a red light. That is a fact. In addition, the person with the child seemed aware of the euc riders. Bottom line is that I just didn't see any evidence to suggest that someone was inevitably going to get hurt. Of course, this is only my opinion, or one data point.

Come on, a rider on a euc squeezing between cars and trucks, and you think the drivers will be the ones who are going to get hurt?

Edited March 17, 2022 by techyiam

[Paul A]

From the video by 'Live'.

The rider in front, on the red EUC, is 'Turbo'.

The traffic light is red.

The little girl and her mother are in the pedestrian cross walk.  Other pedestrians are on the cross walk.

The mother is scrambling to pull the little girl back.

This is how close 'Live' was to hitting the little girl and her mother.

'Live' continued through at high speed racing, nearly hitting the little girl and her mother.

 

 

Other road users are endangered by the reckless behaviour of irresponsible riders.

When a car(s) needs to take out evasive action to avoid hitting an EUC rider that is on the wrong side of the road, an EUC rider that is squeezing in between cars, an EUC rider that is speeding through a red light.......other road users are endangered in having to seek actions to save the life of a reckless EUC rider.

Collateral damage to others, caused by the deliberate, illegal actions of irresponsible EUC riders.

[techyiam]

18 minutes ago, Paul A said:

From the video by 'Live'.

The rider in front, on the red EUC, is 'Turbo'.

The traffic light is red.

The little girl and her mother are in the pedestrian cross walk.  Other pedestrians are on the cross walk.

The mother is scrambling to pull the little girl back.

This is how close 'Live' was to hitting the little girl and her mother.

'Live' continued through at high speed racing, nearly hitting the little girl and her mother.

 

 

Other road users are endangered by the reckless behaviour of irresponsible riders.

When a car(s) needs to take out evasive action to avoid hitting an EUC rider that is on the wrong side of the road, an EUC rider that is squeezing in between cars, an EUC rider that is speeding through a red light.......other road users are endangered in having to seek actions to save the life of a reckless EUC rider.

Collateral damage to others, caused by the deliberate, illegal actions of irresponsible EUC riders.

I didn't see this shot in the video. Can you include the link to the said video. Thanks.

EDIT:

Like I said, it was strictly based on what I saw in the video that you linked in the post containing your comments I quoted you. You did not provide the right link, then. 

Edited March 17, 2022 by techyiam

[Skeptikos]

@Paul A, do you drive? I do, and what you're describing isn't even in the same universe as my concern as a driver.

If I'm driving on city roads, I'm not going to swerve, because I don't need to. At the worst I'll just hit the brakes. The biggest danger is that someone rear-ends me, which is more annoyance than real danger.

If someone is riding a bike or whatever on the road, even if they're going in the wrong direction, I just make a bit of space for them. I've never had to "swerve" and it's never caused me problems, aside from slowing me down some. Or take Central Ave in Albany. It's notorious for having people recklessly jaywalk across the street (it's a busy 4-lane street). I've never heard of a driver being injured as a result of the chaotic jaywalking. It's definitely dangerous for the jaywalkers, but to drivers it's only irritating.

As a driver, my actual concerns are 1) me hitting other people, and 2) other cars hitting me. Bicycles/scooters/etc. are just a curiosity or mild annoyance. Unless you can find examples of EUCs or e-scooters or whatever injuring drivers, I just flat-out don't believe you. It doesn't sound like reality.

[redsnapper]

Re Live Turbo and the NYC Unicide squad - Clearly these guys are pushing the envelope by their wild antics but  in a standoff between traffic and EUC, the loser is definitely the UEC! Future Darwin award recipients... Not impossible for them to cause someone else to get into an avoidance based accident but way more likely for them to paint the road red. I hope they have good medical insurance - they gonna need it :-(

Edited March 17, 2022 by redsnapper

[mrelwood]

 

19 hours ago, Skeptikos said:

Let's be empirical. How many "other road users" has Live sent to the hospital?

You have made it very clear several times already that you do not understand the concept behind any of the words: risk, consequence, legality, manners, and example.

 Maybe it would be a good idea not to try and ridicule anyone who shows any kind of concern, and instead let the ones that understand the words above to discuss the matter by themselves?

[Skeptikos]

26 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

You have made it very clear several times already that you do not understand the concept behind any of the words: risk, consequence, legality, manners, and example.

 Maybe it would be a good idea not to try and ridicule anyone who shows any kind of concern, and instead let the ones that understand the words above to discuss the matter by themselves?

Well I obviously disagree. If you don't like my posts, I suggest you use the ignore option.

[mrelwood]

3 minutes ago, Skeptikos said:

Well I obviously disagree. If you don't like my posts, I suggest you use the ignore option.

I don’t think I’d be doing my job as a moderator if I would.

 But clearly my comment wasn’t related to that. It was my personal opinion, posted with a slight bit of hope that it could make someone see the event from a new angle.

[Skeptikos]

3 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

I don’t think I’d be doing my job as a moderator if I would.

 But clearly my comment wasn’t related to that. It was my personal opinion, posted with a slight bit of hope that it could make someone see the event from a new angle.

It seemed like you stopped by to randomly insult me, without responding to any points I've made.

Let me summarize those again, just to be clear:

• Who are the "other road users" being endangered, and how?
• If these risks are real and not negligible, how do you explain the lack of injuries to non-unicyclists on the road?
• I've been driving since 2004, and have never felt "endangered" by bicycles or other small vehicles. How is that consistent with unicycles putting drivers in danger?
• Given that, historically, as far as I've seen, most pedestrian collisions happened on sidewalks and other pedestrian-filled places (on EUCs and e-scooters as well), why are we singling out street riders for endangering pedestrians?

If these are real, legitimate concerns, you should be able to answer basic questions like this.

[supercurio]

@Skeptikos as third party, I don't think @mrelwood is insulting you anywhere there, or at least I don't see the intent to.

But I agree that you both come from two different views, even cultures and upbringing that you don't understand each other.

Coming from a culture similar to @mrelwood, I also would consider like common sense the principles he's listing resulting from basic things like respecting red lights etc, but I think think your asking sensible questions @Skeptikos by asking for proof and data in order to challenge an assumption.

I know that road safety figures is generally significantly worse in the US than in Europe for instance but there's a lot of factors at play.
"Stroads", which look like an aberration to most European I'm sure are a huge contributor for this increase number of accidents in cities, and probably also the main reason why street EUC riding looks so different between both continents.
In European cities we won't weave around cars switching lanes every few seconds, because this type of road often don't exist.

I'm saying that in the hope that instead of turning it into another NYC vs others, we would look into what are the elements creating this obvious difference of riding strategy in town.
Could it be the direct result of how the streets/roads/lanes are setup? Maybe!

[Skeptikos]

@supercurio I appreciate the diplomacy.

Can you point to where @mrelwood listed principles like respecting red lights?

If @mrelwood is arguing that riders should respect red lights, then we have nothing to disagree about.

Instead, what I'm reading is that @mrelwood supports Paul A's argument that it's logical to bash a small group of NYC riders in every forum thread, based on the seriously dubious claim that those bad unicycle riders are "endangering" car drivers. Or pedestrians, or whatever. In his two posts, @mrelwood hasn't really made it clear what his opinion actually is, except that he doesn't agree with me.

I'm perfectly happy to have a discussion with @mrelwood. But that would require him to stop posting about how I don't understand the word risk, and start actually discussing things.

[Paul A]

Speedy Feet's thoughts on the behaviour of the incident by the two NYC riders.

Speedy Feet downloaded and saved a copy of the video made and uploaded to the channel of that YouTuber.

 

The footage is originally from the video camera of 'Turbo'.

The footage was used as the teaser/introduction to a video,  to induce interest for people to view, the click bait...

 

Should people really strive to be like that YouTuber? 

The YouTuber that denigrated, ridiculed, treated with contempt the multitudes of viewer comments expressing concern?

The YouTuber that ended the follow up video with the group of riders flipping their middle fingers, to show that they were unrepentant?

 

Time mark 32.38 onwards.

• Who are the "other road users" being endangered, and how?
• If these risks are real and not negligible, how do you explain the lack of injuries to non-unicyclists on the road?
• I've been driving since 2004, and have never felt "endangered" by bicycles or other small vehicles. How is that consistent with unicycles putting drivers in danger?
• Given that, historically, as far as I've seen, most pedestrian collisions happened on sidewalks and other pedestrian-filled places (on EUCs and e-scooters as well), why are we singling out street riders for endangering pedestrians?

 

[mrelwood]

 

2 hours ago, Skeptikos said:

• Who are the "other road users" being endangered, and how?

For example the young girl who was yanked back by the woman, probably because young girls don’t tend to look if there are any race participants speeding towards her if she has the green light. The other girl behind them was luckily a few steps behind, since the woman probably couldn’t have yanked them both. Referring to all of the words: risk, consequence, legality, manners, and example.

2 hours ago, Skeptikos said:

• If these risks are real and not negligible, how do you explain the lack of injuries to non-unicyclists on the road?

Whether or not the behavior of a tiny group of riders is acceptable or not isn’t measured in the amount of injuries. It’s about the unnecessary and unexpected rush they pose to others, concerning the consequences of their behavior to other people, legality of speeding through red lights and riding on the wrong side of the road, manners of said behavior, and providing example to riders and non-riders alike.

 Further regarding risk: I have never been killed by playing Russian roulette. Does it prove that it’s a low risk thing to do?

2 hours ago, Skeptikos said:

• I've been driving since 2004, and have never felt "endangered" by bicycles or other small vehicles. How is that consistent with unicycles putting drivers in danger?

I haven’t commented on putting car drivers in danger, but it’s obvious that riding fast between cars is a surprise element that may cause for example elderly drivers to panic. Risk, consequence, manners, and example.

2 hours ago, Skeptikos said:

• Given that, historically, as far as I've seen, most pedestrian collisions happened on sidewalks and other pedestrian-filled places (on EUCs and e-scooters as well), why are we singling out street riders for endangering pedestrians?

Because it should be obvious to every single person past 6 years of age that a busy city street with pedestrian crossings is a different thing than a race track. 

 

58 minutes ago, Skeptikos said:

and start actually discussing things.

I thought you already took part at the hugely long discussion on the Alleycat races. If you didn’t, it might be good for you to start there. If you did, I can’t see how this would be the correct topic for starting up the discussion again, nor whether there would be any point in doing so in the first place.

 Now, I’m not sure which video clips were linked to earlier. My comments refer to all of the relevant clips I saw when the topic was fresh.