ToniG123 Posted January 26, 2016 Posted January 26, 2016 I enjoy riding my EUC (9B1) but having gone throuh a bad fall and some broken bones, I am always afraid of another bad fall. Seeing people report injuries here doesn't help to ease my worries, so I have been growing an idea and I will share it here, give it out freely for all the EUC makers or even for anyone who is willing to turn it into a business (selling it as an accesory maybe). I myself definitely would buy it. I've noticed that many falls and injuries come from EUC cutoffs, either from system failure (motherboard, BMS, firmware, etc) or from abuse (over leaning,etc). I also have been reading here about the idea of having redundancy on the EUC, which I don't see happening anytime. None of the vehicles we use everyday have redundancy. A failure in the hidraulic system in your car will send you crashing against the wall. What we do have in our cars are systems that react to an emergency: we have airbags that pop open upon a crash, seatbelts that tighten on inertia, cars that will brake automatically if they sense inmediate collision, traction control systems that detect and adjust any problem with the wheels, etc, etc . This is called active safety. So... Why not have active safety on our EUCs? I guess it could be done in many ways, but here goes my idea: Why not have a small emergency wheel, tucked away that can detect a cutoff somehow (hooking into the electronics or by its own means) or detect a situation where the rider would normaly be thrown off and in that case make the wheel pop out in front very quickly so the EUC does not tilt forward and will not throw the user off. It's a quite simple idea, I think it would be easier and cheaper than full redundancy and I'm sure it would save some injuries. Something like this:
BA-B8 Posted January 26, 2016 Posted January 26, 2016 Why make it difficult? You can make it yourself very simply by attaching one like a permanent erection. LOL
JesperF Posted January 26, 2016 Posted January 26, 2016 1 hour ago, ToniG123 said: I enjoy riding my EUC (9B1) but having gone throuh a bad fall and some broken bones, I am always afraid of another bad fall. Seeing people report injuries here doesn't help to ease my worries, so I have been growing an idea and I will share it here, give it out freely for all the EUC makers or even for anyone who is willing to turn it into a business (selling it as an accesory maybe). I myself definitely would buy it. I've noticed that many falls and injuries come from EUC cutoffs, either from system failure (motherboard, BMS, firmware, etc) or from abuse (over leaning,etc). I also have been reading here about the idea of having redundancy on the EUC, which I don't see happening anytime. None of the vehicles we use everyday have redundancy. A failure in the hidraulic system in your car will send you crashing against the wall. What we do have in our cars are systems that react to an emergency: we have airbags that pop open upon a crash, seatbelts that tighten on inertia, cars that will brake automatically if they sense inmediate collision, traction control systems that detect and adjust any problem with the wheels, etc, etc . This is called active safety. So... Why not have active safety on our EUCs? I guess it could be done in many ways, but here goes my idea: Why not have a small emergency wheel, tucked away that can detect a cutoff somehow (hooking into the electronics or by its own means) or detect a situation where the rider would normaly be thrown off and in that case make the wheel pop out in front very quickly so the EUC does not tilt forward and will not throw the user off. It's a quite simple idea, I think it would be easier and cheaper than full redundancy and I'm sure it would save some injuries. Something like this: I think It is a great Idear. :-)
DS Posted January 26, 2016 Posted January 26, 2016 Hey @ToniG123 that idea came to my mind also but with both sides dropping wheels and sort of a little wider than the main wheel. I was considering some electromagnet powered from main battery to keep them up....and in the moment of electricity cut off nothing holds them anymore and strong springs shoot the safety wheels down Since I havent had bad accident so far, that idea was just a lazy thought 3-4 times in my mind. One is for sure, nevertheless which direction the euc development will take, the safety level wont stay on the curent initial level.
Tom Posted January 26, 2016 Posted January 26, 2016 But if the wheel cuts off, the gyroscope will stop working, the wheel will have no power, so you'll just find the wheel gets thrown forwards as you fall back, regardless of if the wheel doesnt tip fully forwards.
Tomek Posted January 26, 2016 Posted January 26, 2016 interesting idea, but Imo by the time the wheel would fall down, your face would already be touching the ground too. falling is really a fraction of a second affair :/
Cloud Posted January 26, 2016 Posted January 26, 2016 This will be difficult to make effective and evenif possible would only work at a slower speed. Nice concept though. i would invest in a design that throws an inflatable mattress in front of the falling rider along with a system of all kinds of airbags deployed at cut off if the rider is knocked unconscious, he can at least get a good night sleep. Another option is to deploy a small parachute behind the rider
DS Posted January 26, 2016 Posted January 26, 2016 22 minutes ago, Cloud said: This will be difficult to make effective and evenif possible would only work at a slower speed. Nice concept though. i would invest in a design that throws an inflatable mattress in front of the falling rider along with a system of all kinds of airbags deployed at cut off if the rider is knocked unconscious, he can at least get a good night sleep. Another option is to deploy a small parachute behind the rider I was thinking also of jet lunch ejection system To lunch you upwards/ backwards 45 degrees
Cranium Posted January 26, 2016 Posted January 26, 2016 I had pondered something similar as well but then dismissed it as being practical. Deploying fast enough wasn't an issue...neither was deployment when there was a power dropout. The issue is that you have an arm with a wheel extending out in front of you at a high rate of speed in the attempt to keep you upright. If it caught something in front of you on the ground, this could instead pole vault you through the air instead of protecting you.
ToniG123 Posted January 26, 2016 Author Posted January 26, 2016 Hehe great sense of humor at the forum... Anyhow, trying to stay serious I see no problem with any of the objections: 1. Lack of power: the system should be independent from EUC power, obviously. 2. Time to pop out: I'm sure this can be done. Airbags deploy much faster. 3. "Pole vault" effect: the arm would lock only when fully extended, so that it encounters anything on its way it will not lock stiff. Anyhow, I just wanted to introduce the idea of active security. How to implement it is another thing, it can probably be done a thousand different ways, some better some worse.
DS Posted January 27, 2016 Posted January 27, 2016 11 minutes ago, ToniG123 said: Hehe great sense of humor at the forum... Anyhow, trying to stay serious I see no problem with any of the objections: 1. Lack of power: the system should be independent from EUC power, obviously. 2. Time to pop out: I'm sure this can be done. Airbags deploy much faster. 3. "Pole vault" effect: the arm would lock only when fully extended, so that it encounters anything on its way it will not lock stiff. Anyhow, I just wanted to introduce the idea of active security. How to implement it is another thing, it can probably be done a thousand different ways, some better some worse. Yeah, more seriously..i also see the safety wheel not with arm but at the end of two metal tubes one in another again unfolded by spring..Kind of.telescop...or like shock absorber on the car wheel.
citiboi Posted January 27, 2016 Posted January 27, 2016 5 hours ago, ToniG123 said: I enjoy riding my EUC (9B1) but having gone throuh a bad fall and some broken bones, I am always afraid of another bad fall. Seeing people report injuries here doesn't help to ease my worries, so I have been growing an idea and I will share it here, give it out freely for all the EUC makers or even for anyone who is willing to turn it into a business (selling it as an accesory maybe). I myself definitely would buy it. I've noticed that many falls and injuries come from EUC cutoffs, either from system failure (motherboard, BMS, firmware, etc) or from abuse (over leaning,etc). I also have been reading here about the idea of having redundancy on the EUC, which I don't see happening anytime. None of the vehicles we use everyday have redundancy. A failure in the hidraulic system in your car will send you crashing against the wall. What we do have in our cars are systems that react to an emergency: we have airbags that pop open upon a crash, seatbelts that tighten on inertia, cars that will brake automatically if they sense inmediate collision, traction control systems that detect and adjust any problem with the wheels, etc, etc . This is called active safety. So... Why not have active safety on our EUCs? I guess it could be done in many ways, but here goes my idea: Why not have a small emergency wheel, tucked away that can detect a cutoff somehow (hooking into the electronics or by its own means) or detect a situation where the rider would normaly be thrown off and in that case make the wheel pop out in front very quickly so the EUC does not tilt forward and will not throw the user off. It's a quite simple idea, I think it would be easier and cheaper than full redundancy and I'm sure it would save some injuries. Something like this: I am one of these people who suffered injuries as a result of the sudden shut off/cut off. The problem is once this shut off/cut off occurs the EUC stalls and stops moving or decelerates rapidly to a stop. Your forward inertia will then throw you forwards into a faceplant. Your idea although novel will not prevent this from happening as the EUC will not continue to move forwards or decelerate into a stop gradually. What I cannot understand is, why the manufacturers cannot design or find a motor which continues to rotate even after a shut off/cut off occurs.. much like a manual car running on neutral. This will ensure that the EUC continues to coast to a stop thereby allowing the rider to take the necessary steps to prevent an injury.
dmethvin Posted January 27, 2016 Posted January 27, 2016 2 hours ago, citiboi said: What I cannot understand is, why the manufacturers cannot design or find a motor which continues to rotate even after a shut off/cut off occurs.. much like a manual car running on neutral. This will ensure that the EUC continues to coast to a stop thereby allowing the rider to take the necessary steps to prevent an injury. The motor continues to rotate fine when the power shuts off, but it is "free wheeling". If you are moving forward when it shuts off you nearly always have your center of gravity a bit forward of the wheel. By the time you realize you are leaning too far forward you are unable to recover. And really, recovery cannot consist of more than hopping off since it is very difficult to balance on an EUC that is turned off. Cars and motorcycles do not have this problem because they balance themselves.
citiboi Posted January 27, 2016 Posted January 27, 2016 5 hours ago, dmethvin said: The motor continues to rotate fine when the power shuts off, but it is "free wheeling". If you are moving forward when it shuts off you nearly always have your center of gravity a bit forward of the wheel. By the time you realize you are leaning too far forward you are unable to recover. And really, recovery cannot consist of more than hopping off since it is very difficult to balance on an EUC that is turned off. Cars and motorcycles do not have this problem because they balance themselves. Oh... then it MUST be peculiar to the geared motor in my Rockwheel. I fell forwards because the EUC suddenly stalled and decelerated almost instantly to zero when the battery suddenly shut off. My EUC was left way behind when I fell forwards.
SlowMo Posted January 27, 2016 Posted January 27, 2016 28 minutes ago, citiboi said: Oh... then it MUST be peculiar to the geared motor in my Rockwheel. I fell forwards because the EUC suddenly stalled and decelerated almost instantly to zero when the battery suddenly shut off. My EUC was left way behind when I fell forwards. You can view an actual example of unexpected motor shutdown showing exactly how a freewheeling EUC could do on the the first post of this thread. The unfortunate gentleman was riding a Ninebot One (blue custom color): Edit: The poster made the video private. But here's another video example (looks like the same brand):
Frankman Posted January 27, 2016 Posted January 27, 2016 @dmethvin I completely agree with you. You gave the best explanation of what happens in case of a shut off. Although the idea that @ToniG123 propose is interesting, unfortunately it doesn't solve the problem anyway.
SlowMo Posted January 27, 2016 Posted January 27, 2016 One good Idea is to have an air mattress pop-up when it senses a motor failure just the same like an airbag.
Frankman Posted January 27, 2016 Posted January 27, 2016 @dmethvin I wonder if an emergency super capacitor (as last chance) could give the last correct impulse at the right moment to prevent the final fall. What do you think about ?
johrhoj Posted January 27, 2016 Posted January 27, 2016 As far as i understand, there are too many accidents. Let me categorize these as follows: 1) unsafe wheeling - drivers that do stupid things, e.g. not pay attention to traffic or go unresponsibly fast 2) unable drivers - drivers that do not have enough 'training' of lack some basic skills, like emergency breaking 3) malfunctions/cutoffs - mother board failure, often because of bad design of motherboard, or lack of testing. Some euc's can drive too much current through the motherboard by either prolongued or sudden breaking. - battery depletion, in essence this is asking more power from the battery then it can deliver. Solutions for the different categories: 1) Hope they learn, maybe the hard way, while not causing others trouble and without permanent injuries. 2) Educate. What should you skills be before you drive around through traffic. - ride slow in straight line - ride a perfect 8 several times in a row - be able to to break from 25 km/h to 0 in 3 (maybe 5?) meters and the step off in a controlled way - ride backwards - stop on and off with ease - know all traffic rules and be responsible towards the other traffic participants. 3) better safeguards - rigorous testing of motherboards, also when a heavy person making a full stop. I wonder if the makers of the EUC's take into account that outside asia many 100kg plus persons use their product. The heavier the person, the less the max speed should be ... make the max speed configurable. - enforce max speed by tilting. This is the best way i know to ensure that a rider does not exceed the limit. - lower the max speed when battery goes down . This can either be depletion, or less power because of cold conditions or age of battery. I think with the above implemented, 90% of accidents are solved.
SlowMo Posted January 27, 2016 Posted January 27, 2016 10 minutes ago, johrhoj said: - know all traffic rules and be responsible towards the other traffic participants. In our place, EUC's are not allowed in traffic.
Cranium Posted January 27, 2016 Posted January 27, 2016 I think that when manufacturers are forced to start considering ways of making their devices safer due to the mounting injuries that are occurring, the focus will be on the electronic design rather than a mechanical safety device. Segway sets a very good example on how to make a self balancing device safe. Redundancy is all over the place. 5 gyros, 2 tilt sensors, 2 motor controller boards, 2 batteries, motors with split windings so that each controller board powers 1/2 of them. Failure of a gyro, motor controller or battery will not cause a crash and will allow the rider to come to a safe stop. http://www.segway.bg/segway-ht-2/a-closer-look/component-details/?lang=en <-- Segway used to have this predominant on their site but it is now not easy to find. Maybe because of others wanting to copy what they do. Of course we should expect any kind of increased safety to raise costs a bit whether it is electrical or mechanical. Someone with some skills should try to implement the deployment of the emergency wheel to test its feasibility.
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