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Power pads, how are they actually supposed to work?


alcatraz

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Hey fellow riders.

Sorry if this has been covered. After my first set of home made pads failed completely, I now have some questions.

The initial idea I got was to help you torque the machine and make you feel more locked in. The result of my pads was that I basically couldn't move at all. Like I couldn't lean forward at all because my legs were blocked by the pads. This happened basically the same even after moving them forward. 

Then after calmly going over a speedbump, I completely ripped the pads off because the legs didn't have enough room to absorb the sudden change in height.

I'm now wondering. How are they really supposed to work when they work well? How can you ride trails? What happens when the wheel tilts back? If they need to be set to the millimeter, then any slight pedal dipping/tiltback is going to make the wheel unrideable. (because the legs distance to the pads has changed)

How do you place them? Do they go high or low on the wheel? After failing to put mine high I'm starting to think they need to be super low. Just so your foot doesn't slide off the pedal basically. But in such a case it provides zero help to torque the wheel. In hard mode if I lean forward to accelerate hard, I could easily fall in front of the wheel. It's super sluggish.

Do you flare legs out sideways when going over a speedbump? I never do that. 

Do you turn off tiltback completely? I don't want to because I don't trust myself to hear the alarm. I ride in busy cities.

The MSX I ride in "hard mode" feels like a Tesla in SUUUUPER SOFT mode. It's pissing me off a bit how unresponsive the msx is. It's like a night and day difference hehe. I wish I could set it about 4 steps harder than the current "hard" mode. 

I do love the road stability with an 18x3in wheel. I don't feel nearly as safe on the msx as the tesla though. Not even close. I'm looking for ways to improve things. 

I've done around 6000km on the tesla and 1500km on the msx. (and 10000km on a v8)

Thanks for helping me. Cheers!

Edited by alcatraz
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8 hours ago, alcatraz said:

The initial idea I got was to help you torque the machine and make you feel more locked in. The result of my pads was that I basically couldn't move at all. Like I couldn't lean forward at all because my legs were blocked by the pads. This happened basically the same even after moving them forward. 

 

Sounds like maybe the pads were a bit too tight; however it's important to understand how power pads work. The idea is that you don't need to lean much - if any - to use them. To 'hit the gas' you bend your knees (squat down) which causes your shins to naturally project forward and contact the power pads which then causes the wheel to rotate forwards, throwing off the gyroscope (no lean required) and subsequently causing it to apply power. For braking it's the same - squat down like you're about to sit in an invisible chair behind you which causes your calves to contact the pads and rotate the wheel in the other direction.

8 hours ago, alcatraz said:

Then after calmly going over a speedbump, I completely ripped the pads off because the legs didn't have enough room to absorb the sudden change in height.

 

 

Legs aren't for absorbing bumps in the road. Bend your knees. Sans suspension, your knees are the shock absorber. Your legs/feet should stay (relatively) in place with power pads which is the idea (you don't get bounced off the wheel).

8 hours ago, alcatraz said:

I'm now wondering. How are they really supposed to work when they work well? How can you ride trails? What happens when the wheel tilts back? If they need to be set to the millimeter, then any slight pedal dipping is going to make the wheel unrideable.

 

During tilt back it's the wheel itself that is rotating (the pedals are not independently articulating). So there is no change in distance or angle between the pedals and the power pads.

8 hours ago, alcatraz said:

Also do you place them? Do they go high or low on the wheel? After failing to put mine high I'm starting to think they need to be super low. Just so your foot doesn't slide off the pedal basically. But in such a case it provides zero help to torque the wheel. In hard mode if I lean forward to accelerate hard, I could easily fall in front of the wheel. It's super sluggish.

 

Pads are typically low. Say, a quarter inch of play between the top of your shoes and the bottom of the pad. People often use velcro for attachment so they can adjust to what's most comfortable. And as mentioned previously, don't lean as much as squat down to get your shins into contact with the pads.

8 hours ago, alcatraz said:

Do you flare legs out sideways when going over a speedbump? I never do that. 

 

No. Bend your knees. Pads should be setup to allow a certain amount of knee bending to absorb shocks before contacting the front of the pads. That's why they are typically flared out at the top/front of the pad.

8 hours ago, alcatraz said:

Do you turn off tiltback completely? I don't want to because I don't trust myself to hear the alarm. I ride in busy cities.

 

no. never. unless you don't mind faceplanting :) but there are those that really like to push the limits.. you can find them in EUC crash videos ;) 

8 hours ago, alcatraz said:

The MSX I ride in "hard mode" feels like a Tesla in SUUUUPER SOFT mode. It's pissing me off a bit how unresponsive the msx is. It's like a night and day difference hehe. I wish I could set it about 4 steps harder than the current "hard" mode. 

I do love the road stability with an 18x3in wheel. I don't feel nearly as safe on the msx as the tesla though. Not even close. I'm looking for ways to improve things. 

I've done around 6000km on the tesla and 1500km on the msx.

As a general rule, the smaller diameter the wheel is, the more responsive it is (faster acceleration/braking/etc.). I don't recall all of the physics as to why that's the case, the formulas are out there on the internets...

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4 hours ago, level9 said:

Pads are typically low. Say, a quarter inch of play between the top of your shoes and the bottom of the pad.

This is true for "jump pads", where you want to use the top of your foot and heel to let you 'carry' the wheel in the air. For "push" and "brake" pads, they're usually mounted quite a bit higher on the shell so you do have room for your lower leg to flex about the knee and ankle when you're going over obstacles.

The velcro advice is very good—you'll want to play around with positioning high/low and space between push and brake to find what works for you. I've discovered that it's not easy to find a good all-purpose position for trails, hitting a bump means a lot of knee flex which means the push pad has to be quite far forward—and that makes it difficult to reach when you want to push against it for going up steep hills. I think I'll end up in a place where the push pad doesn't stick very far out from the shell so my knee can slide past it on bumps. Then I'll have to squeeze the wheel for climbing hills, but I hate squeezing the wheel because it prevents the side to side float I rely on to avoid pedal strikes. It seems most 'factory' pads are pretty low profile, I wonder if bumps are the reason.

Of course, for high speed pavement eating, you just sort of want to settle down into the push pad and not have to clench the wheel—so a low profile pad is no bueno. Score another point for velcro: different ride plan, different pads!

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I place mine wide and up high. THey allow me to lean about as far forwards as I want and then gives a place to lean against. If the pads arent soft or fleixble enough, one hard bump while leaning, and you get lumpy legs. JUMP blocks lock feet into pedals, but I dont use those. Pads can be very particular about placement. Mine happen to be ersting just barely touching the back of my leg when standing fairly straight. THe rear pad allows me to really lean back to stop fast, but catch me so I dont simply lean back onto my head. Pads need be wide enough you dont use them during normal riding, unless you are really leaning. Sometimes during hard climbs or when railign thru turns, I find myself allowing my legs to come outside and aside the pads. Pads are a little bit more tricky to get just right, than most people realize. I've a few vids in my signature that show me using pads on a sherman in various conditions. Fwiw, I dont use pads on my other wheels and didnt bother for about 2 yrs of riding.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, Tawpie said:

I've discovered that it's not easy to find a good all-purpose position for trails, hitting a bump means a lot of knee flex which means the push pad has to be quite far forward—and that makes it difficult to reach when you want to push against it for going up steep hills. 

Bingo. You hit the nail on the head there. This is something I can't quite wrap my head around.

How much do you guys think the front pad needs to stick out to have a good balance between "reaching it" and not smashing into your shin every time you need to bend your knees (which I do a lot, road quality is appaling where I live). What about the angle of the pad edge. What works well here? 90deg "wall" or 45deg or something inbetween?

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 First of all, thank you all, for taking the time to help. I really appreciate it.🙏

Right now I'm seriously wondering if for road riding, pads are needed or helpful. It would be cool to hear your opinions on what makes a good "city" power pad? Imagine pavement, sometimes pothole ridden, huge speed bumps, and dense traffic.

The no1 priority is safety. Being able to accelerate away from a dangerous situation, or stop before crashing into a car that's slammed the brakes, while still being able to go over potholes/speedbumps and allow for some serious knee bends. 

I guess one problem is that even with shallow power pads, when you're surprised by a scary looking obstacle at 40km/h and you really need to slow down AND bend your knees at the same, I might have an accident BECAUSE of the power pads. Doing technical stuff while losening the grip on the wheel (to avoid the pads) might cause the wobble or whatever that sends you down.

Maybe the best pads have a shallow and smooth transition edge. Hmm... Like these perhaps?

1638932754278.jpg

Edited by alcatraz
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OK Alcy,heres the drum for safety on the street.Step one ,get some studded pedals or studded inserts for ur pedals.Buy some sai or Clark pads and throw em on with some Velcro.Make sure ur pads have a bit of height above the toe .Centre them so ur equidistant front and back .When standing up u shouldnt be touching either shin or calf.Make sure u dont have a heel lock unless ur going jumping..Pads need to be loose enough to allow u to step off in traffic and get on smoothly with out fxxxing around with foot position to much.Their should be just enough space between top of pads and footplate to keep the wheel attached to u if u get a little airborne but not so tight that u are seriously locked into a big buffet of all u can eat Asphalt.Studs and pads will make ur traffic riding  better and safer!

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2 hours ago, alcatraz said:

90deg "wall" or 45deg or something inbetween?

I suspect this will be different for each rider, will depend on the pad material and will depend on placement. Time to slap some velcro on the sides and start sticking things on!

The grizzla pads look interesting, Clark’s are hugely popular, Russian pads are great looking and comfy but not very functional, Shanespads are totally functional and priced right. Great thing is you can experiment with pads made with foam and gorilla tape—just takes time, a razor knife, and a tiny bit of imagination.

I didn’t use pads at all for the first 2k miles though… now I run Shanespads on the 16x and Luksak’s pads in the S18 (it came with Russian pads). They’re both basically 90 degree pads, wearing moto pants provides extra “padding” so the reduced contact area doesn’t cause issues. I need them for trails (I’ve improved, and am tackling more challenging stuff), but not pavement riding. I’m lucky that I’m able to avoid the actual street for the most part… I loath riding with cars, would almost rather walk.

Edited by Tawpie
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Pads up high will be best for torque. They can be wide or slim depending on how much you want to pinch your legs together. The gap between the pads can take some time to fine tune. I used to run my pads with a huge gap at the top because bumps would cause my leg to hit the pads like you said. Problem with this huge gap is most of the time it feels like you have no pads and therefore need crazy lean to make use of it, so it is not very responsive when you need to quickly change speed or direction. After some more riding, I've learned how to bend the knees without them hitting the front pad so much and now prefer a smaller gap. Basically you just put yourself behind the wheel when going over bumps - similar to braking position but don't lean on the back pads, just let the wheel bounce up and in front of you, allowing your knees to move towards your chest. The counter-intuitive solution is not trying to stay centered over the wheel (front to back), and let the wheel go in front of you while hitting bumps and your shins won't be hitting the front pad because they are travelling up/down instead of rotating. It is hard to explain but basically instead of focusing on bending your knees (which causes shins to rotate forward and hit pad), you keep your knees in a bent position and instead rotate your hip (so that the angle between your shin and pad stays about the same). You'll also notice this causes less fatigue since you are absorbing shock through the larger upper leg/butt muscles.

As an extreme example, look at the position of the riders in mid air when hitting huge jumps - the wheel is in front of them and they are bringing their knees against the chest in a tucked position - their shins stay clear of the front pad (so that it doesn't rotate and spin out the wheel mid air). With this technique it is possible to absorb large impacts without your leg hitting the front pads.

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4 hours ago, alcatraz said:

 First of all, thank you all, for taking the time to help. I really appreciate it.🙏

Right now I'm seriously wondering if for road riding, pads are needed or helpful. It would be cool to hear your opinions on what makes a good "city" power pad? Imagine pavement, sometimes pothole ridden, huge speed bumps, and dense traffic.

The no1 priority is safety. Being able to accelerate away from a dangerous situation, or stop before crashing into a car that's slammed the brakes, while still being able to go over potholes/speedbumps and allow for some serious knee bends. 

I guess one problem is that even with shallow power pads, when you're surprised by a scary looking obstacle at 40km/h and you really need to slow down AND bend your knees at the same, I might have an accident BECAUSE of the power pads. Doing technical stuff while losening the grip on the wheel (to avoid the pads) might cause the wobble or whatever that sends you down.

Maybe the best pads have a shallow and smooth transition edge. Hmm... Like these perhaps?

1638932754278.jpg

Im a ShanesPads V2SE user. I also have spike pedals. Im not a fan of toe locks, but they are definitely the next step in staying locked into a wheel. I find  pads allow me to stop VERY quickly and when I need to, I can lean into them to accel. Im not an aggressive rider. They also help in slow speed control. Comfort and minimalism (and affordable) is kind of my thing. My Sherman is wide, so I had to stay thin or the knee/hip pressure annoys me. A wide pad at the top of the wheel, gets wider in feel as you lower it. Follow my sig link and youll find videos making it pretty obvious how they work. :)

Edited by ShanesPlanet
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It almost sounds like people use their pads differently. I might need to simply cut me a bunch of blocks and just velcro them all together. Then move them around until I have something I like.

Yeah I have super grippy griptape on the pedals that I change regularly.

I ride my wheels all year round. That means -20C and +35C. For sneakers in summer the space around my feet would be huge compared to when I wear deep winter boots. Another fun little problem to try and solve. :)

I do not look forward to rip off my normal side pads (again). It's such a pain in the ass. You can't really cut them before you know where the location of the power pads is going to be. Grr. Riding without them is super painful. I need to wrap my legs in bubble wrap or something haha.

Edited by alcatraz
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13 hours ago, alcatraz said:

Right now I'm seriously wondering if for road riding, pads are needed or helpful. It would be cool to hear your opinions on what makes a good "city" power pad? Imagine pavement, sometimes pothole ridden, huge speed bumps, and dense traffic.

The no1 priority is safety. Being able to accelerate away from a dangerous situation, or stop before crashing into a car that's slammed the brakes, while still being able to go over potholes/speedbumps and allow for some serious knee bends. 

The safest setup would be a suspension wheel (so you don't need all of that play in the power pads for crazy knee bending) with "jump" pads and spiked pedals. The "jump" pads and spiked pedals are for locking you in so you don't get bounced off the wheel when you hit a big pot hole you didn't see while trying to pay attention to the traffic, pedestrians, bicycles and those dogs over there not on a leash... That setup has saved my butt plenty of times. There's a lot going on on the road to pay attention to, especially when moving fast (30mph+). If I had come across those situations without "jump" pads I absolutely would have wiped out.

Jumping can also be useful in emergency situations. A car pulls out in front of out (didn't see you), you can't brake in time... hop a curb up onto the sidewalk or wherever - EUCs with "jump" pads can go almost anywhere. If you don't like the feel of being locked in with "jump" pads, take that as a sign you are likely under-geared.

For trail riding.. I haven't done as much myself at this point but my understanding watching some of the pros is that "jump" pads / spiked pedals are practically required. You can check out "chooch tech"'s EUC videos.. he's got a lot of serious offroad riding and typically uses clark pads.

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5 hours ago, amomymous said:

You should post a picture of your pads

ShanesPads

https://i.postimg.cc/L645rz0X/DSCN8448.jpg

For some reason, images arent showing up today...

3 hours ago, level9 said:

 If you don't like the feel of being locked in with "jump" pads, take that as a sign you are likely under-geared.

:laughbounce2:   Being able to jump OFF a wheel without being impeded is also a safety issue. Strokes for folk, but I am not a fan of having my feet stuck on an 80lb 50mph object. Of course, I don't wear seatbelts or much gear, so one must consider the source...

Edited by ShanesPlanet
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44 minutes ago, ShanesPlanet said:

:laughbounce2:   Being able to jump OFF a wheel without being impeded is also a safety issue. Strokes for folk, but I am not a fan of having my feet stuck on an 80lb 50mph object. Of course, I don't wear seatbelts or much gear, so one must consider the source...

I felt the same way when I first got my power pads and ended up taking them off. I've jumped off my wheel plenty of times (while learning) and it just seemed like a bad idea. Indeed the Clark Pads include a warning message along the lines of... you DO know what you're doing, right? :D Thought about it for a while and just realized I was realistically under-geared which is why it didn't feel safe. So I upgraded my gear and added the pads back. It's like a whole new wheel and a huge level up in experience and enjoyment.

You can still eject with the pads. Plenty of EUC crash vids out there with peeps using power pads and trust me.. nobody has managed to stay attached to the wheel at least that I've seen :laughbounce2:. I had an incident the other day where I was coming in very hot into a 90 degree turn. Braked HARD, so hard I could practically reach down and touch the ground, then jacked the wheel sideways to complete the turn but just slightly miscalculated and lost control. I came off the wheel just fine and still landed on my feet (ran it off). I was impressed I didn't eat dirt as I was really pushing it.

The real risk when moving fast is those pot holes.. even a seemingly minor, practically invisible dip in the road can throw you off... if you're going fast enough... 

If you're moving slow, that's a different story.. that's why you need multiple wheels.. some with power pads and some not depending on what kind of riding you are in the mood for ;)

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I'm always moving slowly. My poor sherman only does 50mph as it is..  Keep watching vids, theres a few cutouts and sand trap falls that ended in hitting the ground while feet still locked into blocks. Power pads don't really lock the feet in, unless you have those blocks that keep your pedals from closing. There's merit in the safety of jump blocks and the safety of NOT having jump blocks. In the end, if jump blocks help you ride and prevent a fall, whether or not you can eject easily, is a moot point. I only have pads (no locks) on my Sherman. Riding styles on my other wheels dont really warrant me using them. Maybe one of these years I'll revisit the jump blocks I designed. I've only been atop eucs for 3 yrs now, so it aint like I've got much experience either way.

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25 minutes ago, ShanesPlanet said:

I'm always moving slowly. My poor sherman only does 50mph as it is..  Keep watching vids, theres a few cutouts and sand trap falls that ended in hitting the ground while feet still locked into blocks. Power pads don't really lock the feet in, unless you have those blocks that keep your pedals from closing. There's merit in the safety of jump blocks and the safety of NOT having jump blocks. In the end, if jump blocks help you ride and prevent a fall, whether or not you can eject easily, is a moot point. I only have pads (no locks) on my Sherman. Riding styles on my other wheels dont really warrant me using them. Maybe one of these years I'll revisit the jump blocks I designed. I've only been atop eucs for 3 yrs now, so it aint like I've got much experience either way.

Yeah... one of my concerns about the OP (or anyone generally) about DIY power pads is there really is a lot going on with a good design that people may not be aware of. Well designed pads taper out in the perpendicular plane such that it allows you to easily slide out / disengine - if you want to. There are a lot of pads out there and definitely not all are created equal.. and of course everyone is unique (height, thickness of calves, etc.).. hence a split pad design with velcro for adjustment is the way to go.. it has to be dialed in per-user.

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The S18 I bought was owned and outfitted by a road warrior… pretty much all street riding. It came with Russian pads, Fish studded pedals and some really cool jump blocks. Undoubtedly a great setup for the mean streets. Instantly a bad setup for me off road, especially the combo of super grippy Fish pedals and the jump block/pads… there was no way I was going to get my foot unhooked fast enough after a pedal strike throws everything sideways. It was really tough just repositioning my feet, and I do that about every 5 seconds it seems.

And while the Russian pads are oh so comfy, you can’t lean into them really, so they don’t help me force the wheel to climb. I need something much stiffer.

I put about 100 off road miles on the as received setup before deciding it had to change—to me it wasn’t working well at all.

Anyway, lots of words to say: there almost certainly isn’t a one-solution-fits-all setup. What works for street will probably suck off road and vice versa. That’s why you end up with Velcro covered side panels. And a box of pads.

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Perfect timing on this thread. Finally got power pads for the V12 after riding the 16X pad free for a year. I did the thing where you put a piece of cardboard in between the velcro and try to line it up with my feet in place but these things feel so foreign! Hesitant to take them out on the road, feel like I've lost my obstruction-free comfort on the wheel. Do these seem poorly placed or too hard to tell since everyone rides different?

 

https://imgur.com/a/CE9QxTm

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3 minutes ago, RagingGrandpa said:

Way too far rearward, IMO...

 

ha, thanks, that's what I figured when I saw others' photos. they look way off. I'll mess around with them some more then.

Edited by wheel-life
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  • 2 weeks later...
On 12/8/2021 at 3:43 PM, ShanesPlanet said:

May I ask, where did you get that cover for the Sherman?

On the topic of pads, I think if you don't get a split set with velcro you're doing it wrong. Being able to adjust the front and back independently to suit your body, riding style, and wheel is of great benefit. I have the Grizzla pads which work well.

 

Edited by InfiniteWheelie
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