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THA

IPS Lhotz, Electro-sport.de and winter - 38,6 km/h tops

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Tuesday, last week, I placed my order to electro-sport.de, after having a few conversations with Ferenc Franke, apparently the entrepreneur himself. Because I had really a need for wheel, I e-mailed to several shops in Europe, most of them either didn't answer to my questions or didn't answer at all. Ferenc was in his category alone and I'm happy about that. Of course I might have saved around 100€ by taking the cheapest possible option. But Ferenc really helped me, and found a way to get the wheel for me in less than one week, thumbs up :)

So I got it after work on Tuesday, took it out of the box and outdoors, about -25--30 Celsius freeze, snow and stock tire on. Heh, first tender touch to pedals, smooth acceleration and what stability! Just unbelievable how big the difference is, but try to picture it: if You tried Rockwheel GR16 and Ninebot, You know that differences might be huge, but imagine that Lhotz is even same amount more stable, compared to NBO!

Okay, next I spinned. Went back indoors, tried to fit Michelin Starcross 60/100-12" front but it just wont fit, it's too wide and thick. Then measured stock tire and decided to give it a try, Best Grip 1000, might puncture the tube, might work fine. And it was just fine!
Pedals were way too slippery, barely a few flakes of snow and zero grip. So I installed some holding screws to pedals. Outdoors, testing, weird... because I installed the studs the way they wouldn't touch the floor without payload, they caused some instability. But now I wasn't able to make the wheel spin anymore, so got the traction needed.

Because we have very cold weathers now, temperatures have been -24 to -33 Celsius this week, battery doesn't feel so well. I can only get 8-10km range and already at the 6km (4 of those in -30...-33 C) it started to tilt pedals on uphill, even though it wasn't beeping, so I think less than 20 km/h. I didn't see red, just blinking green. How much freeze lowers battery voltage? Well, in -30 C app showed 61%, after 3h indoors (no charging) it climbed up to 90%. And when You put on any load, voltage will decrease more in freeze. So I believe 30-40km in summer conditions is quite possible for someone around 55 kg like me (my version is 340Wh).

After using my Lhotz for app. 10km for now I just love it! For these conditions 2-4 fold batteries would be awesome, that's the only drawback. I'm also happy choosing Electro-sport, and I got the 30km/h app by e-mail and never needed to try restricted speed - this is so fantastic wheel that already after something like 1-1,5km I felt 20km/h so slow. Tiny safety tilt back 20km/h felt weird, after 5km I used constantly speeds over 22 km/h, even about 25-27 km/h - I just didn't know that, since I had winter coats hood on over my fur hat and MX google strip over the ears too, all the time. I just noticed that from sports tracker, after I forgot the hood and heard a lot of beeping :) If anything, this should tell pretty well how stable wheel the Lhotz is! And it's easy too, even with those tricky studs I can make 8 in less than 1m wide fairway with ease.

Pedals are just great. Larger than in any other I think(?). And they reach under the big toes too, helps me a lot and haven't felt any numbness on my legs on this wheel.

So only negatives are the well known charging port cap, slippery pedals (for winter use), metal handle (in freeze, not nice to carry on stairs at work) and flexible feel on pedals (I really liked hard stiff Rockwheel pedals) is still a bit weird - even though it isn't even close how bad they are in NBO.

Photo 19.1.2016 16.47.41.jpg

prof_EUC_forum.jpg

Photo 21.1.2016 13.58.20.jpg

Photo 21.1.2016 13.57.50.jpg

Edited by THA
typo

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I was thinking of getting a Lhotz at one point, but I don't think I can fit 4 battery packs in it, so it's a no-go for me.

3 hours ago, THA said:

So I believe 30-40km in summer conditions is quite possible for someone around 55 kg like me (my version is 340Wh).

At best I got around 1km per 10Wh in more ideal conditions in the summer with the 264Wh double-pack of Firewheel (there are some range measures in my signature, done with a bike computer + fairly fast riding, averaging somewhere at or above 20km/h except for the very windy one). I weight less than 60kg, maybe around 60kg with the gear + the wheel is around 14kg, so 30-40km with 340Wh and your weight in summer conditions sounds plausible.

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Yes @esaj, I saw that earlier, great data and was surprised how much even 10 degrees affect. So I'm not disappointed, just the fact one needs to accept.

E: @esaj Why do You think it's not possible to double batteries? I planned to add extra cells in the same BMS circuit, on the top/left&right, if there isn't enough room inside. Just firm cases of plastic or carbon fiber. I forgot to mention, the shape of Lhotz is just great, it's really handy to control when it leaves knees free. At least for someone tiny like me, 1,5m (6ft) tall. The box-shape ones aren't so nice, especially with tilt back, RW was okay on that sense :)

Edited by THA

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12 hours ago, THA said:

Yes @esaj, I saw that earlier, great data and was surprised how much even 10 degrees affect. So I'm not disappointed, just the fact one needs to accept.

I don't think it was that much due to the temperature, rather the wind, 9-11ms = 32-40km/h... The air resistance gets so high. That was probably one the windiest, if not the windiest, of the whole summer. During faster gusts, it could almost stop me on a level road.

12 hours ago, THA said:

E: @esaj Why do You think it's not possible to double batteries? I planned to add extra cells in the same BMS circuit, on the top/left&right, if there isn't enough room inside. Just firm cases of plastic or carbon fiber. I forgot to mention, the shape of Lhotz is just great, it's really handy to control when it leaves knees free. At least for someone tiny like me, 1,5m (6ft) tall. The box-shape ones aren't so nice, especially with tilt back, RW was okay on that sense :)

I have 4 separate 16S -custom packs, each with their own BMS (so they're somewhat thicker than the cells alone). I need a new wheel where I can fit all those inside. 

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@esaj Isn't the BMS pretty much wheels sole in extreme conditions? Or did I miss something: this morning was the coldest weather this far and, like every other morning, Lhotz started to tilt back in a steep uphill, about 700m from home. But today it really slowed down too, beeping, blinking the lights. Didn't cut off and came back to normal soon after I reached flat. I went to visit home after 1 hour, at home 2.45 km from initial state, after warming up, battery was in 99%. So I supposed that behavior was due to BMS.
Can't ignore the fact that this seems very efficient and safe system, especially when the conditions are as planned. So if I change battery pack w/BMS, behavior described would change in the process?
Just thinking... perhaps it would be better to isolate the whole system for the rest of the winter, since voltage is obviously the only feed back in some close-loop control of BMS. Or is there some other PCB and/or circuit that causes this behavior?

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The voltage dropping in cold conditions is due to the chemistry of the cells, not the BMS. BMSs can have OVERtemperature protection (not all of them do though), but I don't think any of them react to lower temperatures (other than detecting the voltage dropping). The tilt-back and other warning logics are in the mainboard firmware, BMS will just cut the power without warning if the voltage drops too low (overdischarge protection).

Edited by esaj

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Thanks - so BMS has thus played any role only once - even though that happened when 41% was left (after warming up indoors). Need to do something to keep those cells warm, it seems to be the only problem in freeze - saw your link about those self-warming bats and got some ideas already. As soon as I get back to my junk box and find out what I have, what to order... :D

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2 hours ago, THA said:

Thanks - so BMS has thus played any role only once - even though that happened when 41% was left (after warming up indoors). Need to do something to keep those cells warm, it seems to be the only problem in freeze - saw your link about those self-warming bats and got some ideas already. As soon as I get back to my junk box and find out what I have, what to order... :D

@vee73 has some sort of battery heater setup. Personally I thought something like this could work:

http://www.aliexpress.com/item/TmallTech-DC12V-Digital-LED-Thermostat-Temperature-Controller-9-99C-Temp-Sensor/32586294909.html   (Digital thermostat with hysteresis)

+  http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Kanthal-A1-wire-32-Gauge-30-FT-0-2mm-Resistance-Resistor-AWG-A-1/32590134442.html   Heating resistor wire (sometimes called "Kanthal"-wire, according to the Swedish manufacturer), available in different resistances per feet/meter

Since the stuff is cheap, I've already ordered those (+ a few other types of thermostats) :P 

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1 hour ago, esaj said:

 

+  http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Kanthal-A1-wire-32-Gauge-30-FT-0-2mm-Resistance-Resistor-AWG-A-1/32590134442.html   Heating resistor wire (sometimes called "Kanthal"-wire, according to the Swedish manufacturer), available in different resistances per feet/meter

Hi @esaj. That is nice staff. What are the different marks on the label of the coils in the picture 22, 24, ..34? Later it says that resistance is 13ohms/ft (40 Ohms/m?), is it always the same. When I try to buy, it will not give me any alternatives? You gonna use 60V or less, to heat batteries? 

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3 minutes ago, Pasi said:

Hi @esaj. That is nice staff. What are the different marks on the label of the coils in the picture 22, 24, ..34? Later it says that resistance is 13ohms/ft (40 Ohms/m?), is it always the same. When I try to buy, it will not give me any alternatives? You gonna use 60V or less, to heat batteries? 

Where You picked up that extra info?

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7 minutes ago, THA said:

Where You picked up that extra info?

I opened that Aliexpress and then there is: scroll up to view item description.

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4 minutes ago, Pasi said:

I opened that Aliexpress and then there is: scroll up to view item description.

OK, need to check that w laptop

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54 minutes ago, Pasi said:

Hi @esaj. That is nice staff. What are the different marks on the label of the coils in the picture 22, 24, ..34? Later it says that resistance is 13ohms/ft (40 Ohms/m?), is it always the same. When I try to buy, it will not give me any alternatives? You gonna use 60V or less, to heat batteries? 

It's the wire gauge (32AWG), see http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/awg-wire-gauge-d_731.html . If you scroll down Aliexpress-the page you'll see other options from the same / other sellers (different gauges/resistances), or do a search for Kanthal in Aliexpress.

EDIT: Oops, the AWG-table I linked only goes up to 26AWG. Here's another page with conversion calculator & table up to 40AWG: http://www.rapidtables.com/calc/wire/awg-to-mm.htm

Mostly the gauge (in this case) doesn't matter that much, but the resistance per feet/meter, so you can calculate the heating power.

And about the voltage, the thermostats need 12V, so I'll probably try it with a e-bike buck-converter I have (36...72V -> 12V / 10A). Most normal linear regulators / switching regulators can't handle voltages above 35V or so. Another way is to use separate 12V battery to power the thermostat (and maybe also the heating).

Edited by esaj

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1 hour ago, esaj said:

It's the wire gauge (32AWG), see http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/awg-wire-gauge-d_731.html . If you scroll down Aliexpress-the page you'll see other options from the same / other sellers (different gauges/resistances), or do a search for Kanthal in Aliexpress.

EDIT: Oops, the AWG-table I linked only goes up to 26AWG. Here's another page with conversion calculator & table up to 40AWG: http://www.rapidtables.com/calc/wire/awg-to-mm.htm

Mostly the gauge (in this case) doesn't matter that much, but the resistance per feet/meter, so you can calculate the heating power.

And about the voltage, the thermostats need 12V, so I'll probably try it with a e-bike buck-converter I have (36...72V -> 12V / 10A). Most normal linear regulators / switching regulators can't handle voltages above 35V or so. Another way is to use separate 12V battery to power the thermostat (and maybe also the heating).

Are you going to put the wire around the batterypack or what? It is not very practical to put many metres of wire+insulation inside? Why not just put highly PTC resistors suitable amount (watts) or light bulb to heat inside, with thermostat os just with a switch.

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3 minutes ago, Pasi said:

Are you going to put the wire around the batterypack or what? It is not very practical to put many metres of wire+insulation inside? Why not just put highly PTC resistors suitable amount (watts) or light bulb to heat inside, with thermostat os just with a switch.

Probably there needs to be "something" between the pack and the wire, as the wire could get somewhat hot (and then some insulation on the outside too to prevent the heat from escaping as fast), so the space is going to be tight depending on the frame. Probably can't fit it in the Firewheel shell with all battery compartments in use, so I thought I might test this with my custom-frame:

lTAggL4.jpg

 

The temperature needs to be controlled with some accuracy, as too hot will cause a thermal runaway to occur in the cells, in which case they might leak, catch fire or explode. The high-specific energy -lithium-chemistries like NCA and LCO have fairly low thermal runaway temperatures (apparently the temperature is lower the more charge the battery has left), and could happen somewhere in the 130-160 Celsius -range.

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IPS Lhotz vs. generic 14" - Because of that snow You can't distinguish all the lumps and holes on surface, but there is a lot of packed snow under, app. 2 inch fresh light snow on top. Afterwards we traded wheels and she had now problems at all to handle Lhotz. IPS tire has actually almost 80mm bigger OD. It's really stable and now when only -5 Celsius outside, range is already around 15k, including a lot of accelerations and brakings, in run with the dog in leach about 8k too, imagine the sudden stops, pees, etc. :D

I plan to fit heating coil/winding inside the case and thermal insulation. No intentions to let it touch other components. For some reason coudn't attach this to the vid thread, but better here :) - next weekend need to try some extreme ;) I'm soooooo happy with with my Lhotz, what a Ferrari (Äidin ferrari = Mom's ferrari) B) And hi, it actually blows snow out from front, generic got stuck, cause: packed snow inside.

 

BTW, design, the form to be precise, is really perfect. I still haven't got sure feet in any way and control is perfect by any means - room to move really tight turns, great hold to wheel (thanks to those red rubber curved stripes up), etc. But I Should really attach some rubber stripe to shield my lovely wheel - how?? attaching anything more than 2-3mm thick between legs would ruin this perfect desing...

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Made some mods today. 
First isolated battery pack with some foil coated foam film between the battery and inner shell, same foam inside outer shell. It was nice to find out how well this casing design works, nearly nothing sprayed between shells - only marks from small drops were found from lowest 3-4cm "department". And I think I got windproof result. Then I put the "standard EUC kind" bumber rubber all over outer shells to cover my baby against more damage... at the moment we have +2C and ice all over, these small roads here are so bad that I need to wait more snow to cover them untill next ride. Or install studs to mid section too - but I prefer to keep this without stud contact while unloaded.

Designed some stickers to replace loose Lhotz logos, but need to wait a few days to get those, so I just draw copy to clear sticker as replacement. It says, translated to english, Mom's Ferrari :) Idea came from colleague of mine who commented my IPS: "it's like a Ferrari in comparison with Your previous ones" and I said "it is" :D 

image.jpg

image.jpg

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@esaj, made some investigations and measurements between shells: On the charging port side there is room for one extra pack if You just fit it in 3 parts (original battery pack are in 3 parts too, on switch side). My generic one stopped totally today, it is from verkkokauppa.com and we'll see how they dela with this cace since the motor is obviously broken (hard to turn the wheel, like steps all around) but case has many minor damages... so I measured it's battery (which actually is 2.9Ah, not 130Wh as claimed :o ), I'll fit it in if they refuse to replase the wheel/motor.
I also measured that Lhotz is actually about 15-20mm thinner than generic - I could just cut the case a little, fit easily extra packs on both sides. The new 191+ model is thus probably about 30mm wider than 191. But I believe that 3 packs = 520 Wh will serve my needs just fine - at least until next hard freeze, before that I can't really say how big difference this isolation makea, or doesn't...

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Just now, THA said:

 

Ou this feel awesome - quoted from video thread, hope I did it right!

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On 30.1.2016 at 9:16 PM, THA said:

My generic one stopped totally today, it is from verkkokauppa.com and we'll see how they dela with this cace since the motor is obviously broken (hard to turn the wheel, like steps all around) but case has many minor damages... so I measured it's battery (which actually is 2.9Ah, not 130Wh as claimed :o ), I'll fit it in if they refuse to replase the wheel/motor.

Well well, for any Finnish people to know: my generic one was replaced with another piece, used but looks good, like new. Other side has been open, panel dropped in 1min. Obviously wheel nut/nuts are loose since it makes "klonk klonk" noise in every reverse-forward direction change. So can't really give any + reputation for their service skills... need tocall directly to service tomorrow, I rather fix this myself even though service is located in Finland.

Lhotz instead seems every way HQ EUC, even though it looks a ship next to a boat, leaning to wall behind 14" generic :D Had to open to outer shells to find out if I can replace "front" leds with something better in sense of illuminance. I thus ordered a 8.4V 1W Cree, hope to get at least modest headlight to replace that original candle-like...

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From a Gotway topic I got the idea how to test my Lhotz theoretical max speed - just for safety reasons, since I can go downhill against quite strong tilt back. I thought it woudn't be possible, that the wheel would cut off immediately when airborne, but I was wrong - this wheel doesn't give crazy acceleration when lifted up. I noticed that when I tried some small jumps from plowed hard pile of snow and had no trouble at all landing in good balance, without loosing the grip. So I tested the top speed, got 38,6 km/h in app :o - last pic I managet to get was 37,5 kph.
I'm pretty sure I wan't exceed this speed accidently, constant beeping starts at 30km/h :D

SUNP0011 (2).JPG

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Some update to previous notes follows... I have now at least 130k on my Lhotz (Spotrs tracker recorded km's, app. 50km yet on device...). For last few weeks I've used my wheel almost daily, mainly for walking our dog on leash. Dog loves my EUC, so excited every time I mention "shall we go out with EUC" because she knows she can run as much and as fast she likes :D 
Our normal run is from 4.4km to 5.7km, including a small narrow snowy trail section in woods. Weathers has been light snowing max, temperatures from -5C to +2C. Some snow, 10-20cm all over makes testing pleasurable and safe, because falling down doesn't hurt (soft slides, some minor bruses tops) . Max speed from 20 to 25 kph acc. to GPS, 22 to 27 acc. to Xima app, average speed from 9.7kph to 16kph acc. to sports tracker. Battery has lasted 3 runs, every time! Sometimes on third run, when we choose a run that leads the steep uphill at the end of the run, wheel tilts back harsh on the clime and battery shows 0%. Top speed less than 10kph (but more than 5-6kph). After reaching the flat battery recovers to 4-10% and wheel allows at least 15kph without tilt back, last 400-500m is OK even when battery shows only 2% at home. Once I managed to crawl home at 0%, took the wheel indoors and after 20min warmimg up battery was at 9%. As lifted up at 0% got 33,x kph on app.

I don't know if this wheel runs 30kph under 40% battery, since when accelerating fast to around 20kph draws % under 40, wheel starts to flash lights and beep, so I put my phone away on that point. Accelerating futher in plausible, but hard since the wheel tries to prevent that by tilting back. I've managed to accelerate to app. 25kph (real speed), still no cut-off. Steep uphill and fast accelerations cause the same phenomenon of course, but 15-20kph travel speed to 9% battery is ok for me. And even though wheel beeps constantly at low %, no cut-off and I've tried hard! I managed to get about 32kph on downhill, constant beep but no cut-off there either. I'm pretty confident now, I think any BMS on other cut-off induced fall down is impossible...

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44 minutes ago, THA said:

Some update to previous notes follows... I have now at least 130k on my Lhotz (Spotrs tracker recorded km's, app. 50km yet on device...). For last few weeks I've used my wheel almost daily, mainly for walking our dog on leash. Dog loves my EUC, so excited every time I mention "shall we go out with EUC" because she knows she can run as much and as fast she likes :D 
Our normal run is from 4.4km to 5.7km, including a small narrow snowy trail section in woods. Weathers has been light snowing max, temperatures from -5C to +2C. Some snow, 10-20cm all over makes testing pleasurable and safe, because falling down doesn't hurt (soft slides, some minor bruses tops) . Max speed from 20 to 25 kph acc. to GPS, 22 to 27 acc. to Xima app, average speed from 9.7kph to 16kph acc. to sports tracker. Battery has lasted 3 runs, every time! Sometimes on third run, when we choose a run that leads the steep uphill at the end of the run, wheel tilts back harsh on the clime and battery shows 0%. Top speed less than 10kph (but more than 5-6kph). After reaching the flat battery recovers to 4-10% and wheel allows at least 15kph without tilt back, last 400-500m is OK even when battery shows only 2% at home. Once I managed to crawl home at 0%, took the wheel indoors and after 20min warmimg up battery was at 9%. As lifted up at 0% got 33,x kph on app.

I don't know if this wheel runs 30kph under 40% battery, since when accelerating fast to around 20kph draws % under 40, wheel starts to flash lights and beep, so I put my phone away on that point. Accelerating futher in plausible, but hard since the wheel tries to prevent that by tilting back. I've managed to accelerate to app. 25kph (real speed), still no cut-off. Steep uphill and fast accelerations cause the same phenomenon of course, but 15-20kph travel speed to 9% battery is ok for me. And even though wheel beeps constantly at low %, no cut-off and I've tried hard! I managed to get about 32kph on downhill, constant beep but no cut-off there either. I'm pretty confident now, I think any BMS on other cut-off induced fall down is impossible...

Good to hear, I'd expect the IPS BMSs to be top-notch, as from the pictures I've seen, they build them straight into the mainboard (at least for most if not all models). The downside is that using custom-packs can be hard / impossible, but for people who don't need such, IPSs seem pretty high quality.

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25 minutes ago, esaj said:

Good to hear, I'd expect the IPS BMSs to be top-notch, as from the pictures I've seen, they build them straight into the mainboard (at least for most if not all models). The downside is that using custom-packs can be hard / impossible, but for people who don't need such, IPSs seem pretty high quality.

Yep, the only connector/connection in sight that has 60V in the charger port, so need to connect extra 16 cells in parallel with the original cells, which are really some high quality ones. In comparison with the generic one, Lhotz voltage drops signicantly less with temperature (already without load). 
Here in the forum some people have criticized IPS regenerative braking, but my experience is all positive. Battery really charges on downhill slopes, from flat 10% to next flat 20% happened several times. Maybe these Lhotz/Zero japanese batteries are just better or this works best only on relatively small % range.

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