Begode 900Wh Battery Recall Options

[mrelwood]

 

16 hours ago, Felix said:

I think Fbook is a good cross section of all walks of life representing anyone.

This is one of the key issues that made me stop using FB. I really hope you’ll eventually learn to see how this opinion of yours on FB is badly distorted.

If FB had presented a good cross section of all walks of life to me when I left FB: 98% of the population were politically left/green, 85% voted for a president who lost the election, 70% of people were musicians, most people didn’t own a car, and 99.3% of people lived in Finland. And FB tries it’s best to make the effect larger and larger by only suggesting “new” content that it already knows you like.

This is why citing one’s personal FB experience as a source for any statistic doesn’t work one single bit.

16 hours ago, Felix said:

Even my mum is on Fbook

Mine’s too. I’m not. Hence I wasn’t taking part in your FB poll, just like the vast majority of the world’s EUC riders weren’t.

 

14 hours ago, div said:

I also mentioned a second set of data available to all which is participation in forums.

Less than 10% of the riders in our weekly meets have an account in this forum. And being a regular in weekly meets already makes one an enthusiast, not an average EUC owner.

 

13 hours ago, mike_bike_kite said:

Other wheels use these batteries

Other wheels use the same battery cells, not the same battery packs. Doesn’t BG themselves use the same cells in other than 900Wh packs as well? (Honest question.)

 Since the issue has so specifically concerned only the 900Wh pack, it seems reasonable to suggest that the issue seems to be in the specific BMS being used, or in the construction of the pack. And the possibility of counterfeit cells doesn’t seem too far fetched to me either.

 

13 hours ago, div said:

edit: actually, never mind, I can’t take you seriously with your self important tone. > ignored.

Guess what, you now did exactly what FB does: removed the disagreeing opinions from your view. Now the posts you see on this forum align better with your own opinions, making your view of the forum as a whole more distorted. “All walks of life” now applies even less.

 The above is in no way a judgement towards hiding someone’s comments, that’s what the feature exists for. I just wanted to point out how the same thing happens outside of FB as well. We simply never see “all walks of life” presented to us in any kind of realistic balance.

 

13 hours ago, Planemo said:

but the one simple thing that sticks out for me is ewheels stance on it. For a company to take that (costly) decision means there is a good reason that I just cant ignore.

I agree. Except for the cost of the decision though. Had they somehow been able to remove the 900Wh packs from their whole operation even sooner, they’d have avoided a huge amount of cost and grief from the warehouse fire. And considering that this was already the second GW/BG fire to destroy a large amount of their property, I’m sure the solution to remove the 900Wh packs altogether can cost a pretty penny and still be a much better deal.

 I would think that EUCO’s stance is probably quite similar.

 That’s one interesting stat actually, the amount of damage the GW/BG fires has brought to the largest US distributors. Ouch.

[Paul A]

Haven't seen this one before.

First chemical fire extinguisher not having much effect.

 

EUC Burn up after 10k miles. Gotway monster 84v

 

Apr 13

2021

 

[alcatraz]

At least there's a serious debate about the issue now. Begode is likely looking into the matter. If they want to restore their sales to maximum, they know that they need to make some changes.

They recently limiter charging. Could that really be the issue? People are charging too fast for the bms to sort out the balancing?

[Felix]

6 hours ago, mrelwood said:

Mine’s too. I’m not. Hence I wasn’t taking part in your FB poll, just like the vast majority of the world’s EUC riders weren’t.

Statistics (based on a poll) has nothing to do with capturing answers from vast majority of the worlds riders. Do you think in political poll they try to ask every single person? No, its about polling a representative group, and I do believe hundreds of riders from FB is a reasonable representative group. 

[Mango]

For it to be statistical accurate, you’d need to poll a randomized group of all known riders, and not based off voluntary participation.

There are lies and then there’s statistics.

[Felix]

28 minutes ago, Mango said:

For it to be statistical accurate, you’d need to poll a randomized group of all known riders, and not based off voluntary participation.

There are lies and then there’s statistics.

For sure that would be ideal. But beggars cant be choosers  And "lies" its a strong word

[Paul A]

2016

May 29

Krymo is so hot that his gotway catch fire

Street Roo

899 views · 5 years ago

 

[mrelwood]

 

7 hours ago, div said:

You are reacting to out of context bits and not to the meaning of my messages.

Seems I should’ve made a much better job in explaining my intention. It was not an argument against anything you wrote, but just to bring up an additional angle as to why any forum based poll or point of reference could also be way out of the global average.

 

7 hours ago, div said:

I don’t ignore people based on opinions or aptitude but on attitudes. That is not what makes the echo chamber effect. As for walks of life I have very different friends and relations, thank you.

If my post offended you somehow, or sounded like I was pushing my own actions and ideas to others, that was definitely not the intention. (Except for not to take a slice of FB as a useful randomized sample.) I may type in a reasonably fluent English by now, but the tone of my messages can be way off due to cultural differences. Please exercise some level of reasonable doubt. (I hope I used that term correctly.)

 Like I said, the ignore function exists so that people who wish to use it can do so. Just like FB exists for those who wish to use it. I have made my own decisions on both, but they are definitely not the decisions that everybody should follow. Absolutely not! In some professions no FB equals no work. My personal choice has nothing to do with it.

And just like my decisions, my moral is my own and mine only, I have zero interest in comparing it to others’ to see whose would be somehow better. That’s sounds absurd to me. I have no idea where that part of your reply came from, but it was definitely a grave misunderstanding.

[mike_bike_kite]

25 minutes ago, RagingGrandpa said:

There have been no fire reports yet from the new-design Gotway packs (48X, 50E, M50LT). Changes were made; not "nothing being done."

Sadly, there are a lot of old 900wh M50T packs still out in the world, and some percentage of them are likely to burn. 

So how does a rider know what type of pack they have in their Gotway/Begode?

Are old packs being replaced for free or at least for cost?

[Tawpie]

15 minutes ago, mike_bike_kite said:

So how does a rider know what type of pack they have in their Gotway/Begode?

I'm just guessing here, but I'm thinking eWheels will reach out to owners of affected packs using their sales database and provide details. I have no idea how they'll track down wheels that have been resold (or if they will). The recall hasn't started yet, I expect the fire set back their plans.

[RagingGrandpa]

28 minutes ago, mike_bike_kite said:

how does a rider know what type of pack they have in their Gotway/Begode?

The most interesting detail is "which cell?"

For almost all previous models, Gotway prints the cell model on the pack label, which is installed facing 'inward' - so gently lift one side of the battery out of the EUC (leave wires connected) to see it.

But the story is relatively simple: the poor-safety-record 900wh pack with the M50T cell was manufactured from early 2020 thru mid 2021 in:

• Nikola 100V 1800wh 21700: production before ~May 2021.
• MSuper Pro (MSP) 1800wh: all models.
• MSuper RS 1800wh: production before ~May 2021.

Some larger EUC's before May 2021 also used 3 or more of these packs, but have shown a low fire occurrence rate. We presume the 2-pack (1800wh) configuration is most vulnerable.

[goatman]

Li Tech bms

ive got the LHY24sp VER:03

theyre no longer going to use this bms?

im printing 18650 cell holders and was going to re use the bms even though i suspected it to be the culprit for my 0 volt cells 

where do i buy this Li Tech BMS, mentioned in the first post of this thread?

 

Edited March 1, 2022 by goatman

[Hansolo]

On 11/27/2021 at 2:05 PM, Paul A said:

2016

May 29

Krymo is so hot that his gotway catch fire

Street Roo

899 views · 5 years ago

 

It was a staging for the images, with a flammable product 

[RagingGrandpa]

9 hours ago, goatman said:

LHY24sp VER:03

theyre no longer going to use this bms?

The GW/BG BMS has been updated slightly since your version, but remains compatible because the BMS does not communicate with the controller, so no special features are needed for the pack to work in the EUC.

9 hours ago, goatman said:

where do i buy this Li Tech BMS

LiTech is a 3rd-party (in China) and some distributors are offering new GW/BG EUC's with LiTech packs instead of the standard packs. But it's the same story- the pack doesn't communicate with the EUC controller, and these packs are interchangeable with the originals.

I don't think repair parts (e.g.: BMS PCB) are available yet, for the LiTech design.

[supercurio]

53 minutes ago, RagingGrandpa said:

LiTech is a 3rd-party (in China) and some distributors are offering new GW/BG EUC's with LiTech packs instead of the standard packs. But it's the same story- the pack doesn't communicate with the EUC controller, and these packs are interchangeable with the originals.

It's interesting that since the pack can't communicate with the EUC Controller, they came up with the idea of the packs having their own alarm system with dedicated beeper.

I don't know if the LiTech packs are interoperable with the original packs tho, in a configuration which would mix both in the same wheel. More precisely, if a fault in one pack would stop charging in others. I hope they do, which would make them drop-in replacements for owners who had only 1 faulty pack in their 3 pack wheel for instance, and replace the faulty original with a LiTech pack.

[RagingGrandpa]

5 minutes ago, supercurio said:

drop-in replacements for owners who had only 1 faulty pack in their 3 pack wheel for instance, and replace the faulty original with a LiTech pack

I think they're not compatible with eachother's BMS charging-shutoff features...

But aside from BMS compatibility, replacing 1 pack in a used 2- or 3-pack EUC should come with careful consideration. Mixing aged cells with new cells, or M50T cells with 50E cells in the same system, is inefficient at best and hazardous at worst. 

"Age" is a real conern: If there are more than 100 cycles on the cells (e.g. 3000mi ridden), sadly, I think once any one cell is discarded it's worthwhile to replace everything. 
Younger packs... might be a risk worth taking, considering the expense. But certainly replace packs with identical packs (same cells, same BMS).

[alcatraz]

An older pack in good condition can still be ridden safely I think. As long as the rider is aware that it doesn't provide the same currents and low voltage sag of a new pack. Ride the wheel to 80% of its max and it should be fine.

Some manufacturers specify 80% remaining capacity after already 300 cycles. Then after hitting 80% the decline kind of tapers off in general. 1000 cycles ~76% etc. 

Mixing new and old cells within a pack comes with risk for someone that can't monitor the voltages. If you can, and you've grouped your cells with a bit of care you can get many years of use of that pack. 

As for replacing one of two packs. From a cell aging perspective there is no risk. It is an improvement from having two working aged packs. However, you must ensure that the charge cutoff system works.

(The following isn't addressed at anyone. Just speaking in general.) Blaming the cells when in fact the bms fails is unfair. New cells are usually matched and don't even require a bms at all. Cells are going to age, and the bms is supposed to step in and handle that.

If cells reach 80% capacity quickly and then remain within 70-80% for thousands of cycles, then you'd think that bms' would be designed with the ability to balance cells that have 70% of their original capacity. Sadly, this is usually not the case.

[RagingGrandpa]

15 hours ago, alcatraz said:

An older pack in good condition can still be ridden safely I think.

Agreed.

And we have lots of EUC's represented in the forum with >10,000km ridden safely.

  

15 hours ago, alcatraz said:

As for replacing one of two packs. From a cell aging perspective there is no risk. It is an improvement from having two working aged packs.

The fallacy of unmatched packs  made worse by the cyclic loading of EUC riding.
(In a single-discharge situation, you'd be right- more parallels of any sort usually help.)

Even if the voltage is equal and the internal resistance is equal...
If capacity isn't equal, among cells in parallel experiencing the same cyclic current, there will be unwanted 'balancing' currents passing between the cells after every pulse of energy. Because of it, the old cells will age even faster when paralleled with new cells, than if they were matched with old parallel neighbors.

 

Edited March 2, 2022 by RagingGrandpa

[alcatraz]

9 hours ago, RagingGrandpa said:

The fallacy of unmatched packs  made worse by the cyclic loading of EUC riding.
(In a single-discharge situation, you'd be right- more parallels of any sort usually help.)

Sounds like you're mixing up serial and parallel connections. The opposite will happen. The older pack will age a tiny bit slower.

Hooking up a newer pack in parallel will only unburden the old pack to a greater degree than if you add a similarly aged second pack. The newer pack has less resistance and will age faster because it's going to experience a higher share of the total current.

[goatman]

if you used new cells that like micro cycling it wouldnt prematurely age the new cells,  a 40T likes it

but if you paralleled new cells like a lg m50tl with old m50t's it would probably kill the new cells twice as fast

asking 15amps from a m50tl you only get about 3200 mah from the cell at 3.0v c/o

https://www.thunderheartreviews.com/2019/08/lg-m50t-grade-a-test.html

a 40T gives about 3400 mah before hitting 3.0v c/o

https://www.thunderheartreviews.com/2018/12/samsung-40t-high-drain-21700-li-ion.html

[alcatraz]

Aging is not really a big concern when paralleling packs. I don't even know why we're discussing it. The difference between an 80kg rider and a 60kg rider is going to stress/age packs a lot more than mixing an old and a new pack.

Yeah the old pack has some sag and, the new pack will take a bit more of the load. But it's not going to be a huge difference.

[Flying W]

I know Ewheels is still rebuilding after the fire. Had anyone heard anything new about when the recall could take place? 

 

[mike_bike_kite]

It's great that Ewheels is doing this but I'd prefer it if Begode issued a recall or at least offered safe 900Wh packs at cost.  

[Denny Paul]

5 hours ago, Flying W said:

I know Ewheels is still rebuilding after the fire. Had anyone heard anything new about when the recall could take place? 

 

Last I heard from an email from eWheels a couple weeks ago they were planning on starting in about 4 weeks or so. That puts us around mid March maybe.

I wouldn’t start hounding them immediately then for it; they’ve made it clear they plan on reaching out when they’re ready to start. And it’s a big project, so if it takes a couple weeks extra that’s just about expected. 

[Flying W]

@Denny Paul no hounding from me, Ewheels gets plenty of messages so I just check here for updates since someone already knows