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Largest tire that fits in an Msx84?


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Hey fellow riders

I'm curious which tire you think maximizes the available space in the good old msx84. 

The more air volume the better the "suspension". I like to maximize the suspension for the city riding that I do. The road quality is pretty awful sometimes.

Not to be confused with thicker tires like tubeless ones. I suspect that they don't necessarily offer better suspension. I'm a light guy and even the thinner CST C1488 hasn't managed to puncture once in 5000km. Unfortunately there isn't a 18x3.5in version of it to attempt.

Thank you for reading and/or commenting.

Edited by alcatraz
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Your best bet are the 2.75-14, 80/80-14, and perhaps some 80/90-14 motorcycle tires. I used the CST C-186 in size 2.75-14 on my MSX 84V, but I might’ve sanded the edge of the shell just a bit for it to fit better.

 While motorcycle tires are stiffer, shock absorption is a complicated matter. Thick, large MC tires like the ones mentioned above can be run with a lower pressure for a similar riding feel. They are also quite a bit calmer with the rebound, ie. the aftermath of being compressed.

So yes, a chunkier tire will absorb shocks better.

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I don’t know if they do in EUC sizes, to be honest. But a 3.5” tire would be so much taller that there’s no way it would fit.

 The C-5102 tire that the 84V MSX originally came with actually measures at about 2.75” when installed. So there are definitely much larger tires available in the 3” size category as well.

 Lots of people have explored the replacement tires that fit and work well on EUCs. I suggest you follow their footsteps instead, and not use your valuable time and money for learning from the same mistakes we’ve already done.

Edited by mrelwood
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Of those, the K340 and C6004 are tried and true tires that many people have tried and liked. Although, some have had issues to fit the K340 and it can even slip off the rim on some earlier Shermans. For me personally, I’d go with the more knobby like C137. If I had to choose from only those models that is.

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7 hours ago, alcatraz said:

How about these? Thanks for the tip with 2.75-14

C113 - C6004 are both very good

kenda 340 it's too big for msx/msp shell, it fit but the clearance is really really tiny 

for an msx i'll go with a C113 or C137, a bit lighter compared to others

Edited by EMA
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On 10/10/2021 at 3:56 AM, EMA said:

C113 - C6004 are both very good

kenda 340 it's too big for msx/msp shell, it fit but the clearance is really really tiny 

for an msx i'll go with a C113 or C137, a bit lighter compared to others

 

On 10/9/2021 at 10:38 PM, mrelwood said:

Of those, the K340 and C6004 are tried and true tires that many people have tried and liked. Although, some have had issues to fit the K340 and it can even slip off the rim on some earlier Shermans. For me personally, I’d go with the more knobby like C137. If I had to choose from only those models that is.

Where on the shell is the tightest spot? Is it always in the same place or does it move depending on tire choice?

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11 hours ago, alcatraz said:

Where on the shell is the tightest spot? Is it always in the same place or does it move depending on tire choice?

It depends on whether a tire is too tall or wide, or whichever combination of the two hits first. But for me the tightest spot on the MSX was always the curved edge of the shell’s tire opening. It starts to curve in pretty early, so just making the edge straight for a half an inch further (and smoothing out the rest to fit) was all it took to fit the C-186 without any risk of touching the shell.

 If the tire is not centered/aligned very well, it can also drag on the inside of the wheel well, since the shell does flex when riding on one leg during mounting.

Edited by mrelwood
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On 10/11/2021 at 4:13 PM, alcatraz said:

Where on the shell is the tightest spot? Is it always in the same place or does it move depending on tire choice?

on msx the curved edge of the shell’s tire opening in the back, kenda k340 can touch the inside of the shell when ride one foot. 

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My favorite MSX/MSP/RS tire right now is the 80/80-14 angel pirelli. Pics of the tire on both a 100V MSX and an RSHS. Great grip and performance.

 ZYxmFnW.jpgfTE9gL7.jpg

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I got a Chaoyang H-5102 on now. It's the one that came with my MSX and I haven't tried anything else. I have to say though that it feels really crappy.

The sidewalls are so thick that when I drop the pressure I can clearly feel them kind of keeping me up, and it's squirreling around a lot.

I kind of gave up on the idea of maximizing the tire volume and just ordered a good old C-1488 that I've been so happy with on my tesla. It's a thinner tire that is really supple and flexible. I didn't expect to enjoy that kind of tire so much, but after trying a thick tire, I gotta say that thin wins every time.

IMG_20211019_205103.jpg

Edited by alcatraz
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Wow, if you think a 5102 has stiff sidewalls dont go anywhere near a motorcycle tyre!

I felt the 5102 was very pliable personally, and I loved it at 25psi on my MSX. Super smooth, great for carving and running it at that pressure was good for bump compliance.

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Ok cool. As said, I don't have anything to compare it to. I might be wrong. Let's see the C1488.

I think I'm under 25psi. (my gauge is unreliable, but repeatable)

I basically go so low that I'm borderline bottoming out, on paved roads. Not on flat sections, but going over speedbumps etc. I don't bottom out but it feels like I'm close to = maximum compliance. When trying to do low speed turns it's really squirrely. :D

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I believe the load rating of a tire correlates to its thickness. So I might just need to find a 2.75x14 tire that has a very low load rating to get what I need. I'm not afraid of punctures really. Been running a thin 1488 tire for thousands of km and it just keeps on going, while being comfy.

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5102 and 1488 are the lightest tire you can use, super soft and comfy in some situation but with super low grip both

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8 minutes ago, RagingGrandpa said:

I come from road cycling and there rider weight makes a big difference. Mileage, comfort, puncture resistance.

It might be worth mentioning when recommending a tire. A 100kg rider will have a totally different favorite than a 65kg rider (on the same wheel).

Edit: With wheels weighing as much as 45kg (which is 7 bicycles) the system weight of rider + wheel is of course relevant. :)

Edited by alcatraz
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On 10/19/2021 at 5:51 PM, alcatraz said:

I basically go so low that I'm borderline bottoming out, on paved roads. Not on flat sections, but going over speedbumps etc. I don't bottom out but it feels like I'm close to = maximum compliance. When trying to do low speed turns it's really squirrely. :D

If you like to ride at very low pressures, actually a stiff tire should work better for you. They don’t get all squirrelly and undefined at low pressures. And if you think that a stiff tire would be uncomfortable, it really isn’t. Quite the opposite actually, a stiff tire has much less rebound on bumps, so it’s usually more stable and a smoother ride than the thin factory install EUC tires you’re familiar with, which try to follow smaller road inconsistencies. With a stiff tire you have the shock absorbing of air and a rubber bumper combined.

The ChaoYang H-666 was a nice step upwards from the standards, and already I found it more comfortable. When going all the way to the motorcycle tires like the CST C-186 and my favorite the Heidenau K66 (and properly riding them in), you do need to lower the pressure a bit for the same ride feel, but once you do, they roll much nicer! They don’t get wiggly under any circumstances, they are much more directionally stable, they are nearly immune to surface changes, and the grip is from a different planet. The K66 especially is a better tire in every single measure.

 Think about it this way: Deflate a bicycle tire and roll the separate wheel with the deflated tire around by hand. It’s all squiggly, goes wherever it wants, and doesn’t handle bumps at all well.

Then take a motorcycle wheel, deflate the tire and roll it around. Squiggly who? No, but Mr. Comfy MacStable.

Edited by mrelwood
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8 hours ago, mrelwood said:

 than the thin factory install EUC tires you’re familiar with, which try to follow smaller road inconsistencies.

I think the reports from various riders can be so different its really hard to know what a different tyre is going to do.

Not disputing your own feelings, but when I fitted the Pilot Sport to my MSX I felt it was awful. Immediately, the tramlining was far worse, I was even getting the wheel wanting to tilt just from the camber or the road (reminded me of the Z10) and although I hear what you are saying re the physics of rebound with a thicker rubber, the trade off of having reduced initial bump compliance didnt work at all for me. I went back to the 5102 within a day and all was good in the world again.

The only caveat I will admit to is that I used an 80/90 profile which is too wide for the msx really. This could have added to the problem but by how much is difficult to say.

That said, many people like yourself have good things to say about MC tyres, so the takeaway for me is that the only option is to try one really, its all in the eye (or ride) of the beholder!

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56 minutes ago, Planemo said:

Not disputing your own feelings, but when I fitted the Pilot Sport

Oh right, I didn’t even consider the pure street MC tires! I have no experience about them, as they don’t fit my riding habits at all.

Some MC tires may require drastically different pressures though, and had you been forced to stay with the Pilot, a lower pressure could’ve helped all aspects of the behavior by quite a lot.

 

56 minutes ago, Planemo said:

The only caveat I will admit to is that I used an 80/90 profile which is too wide for the msx really. This could have added to the problem but by how much is difficult to say.

I’ve been running the K66 80/90-14 on my V11 for maybe 1000km by now, and while there is ever so slightly more Z10 to it’s tilting behavior, it’s not more than can be found on some regular 18x3” tires. So it’s not the width of the tire as much as the profile and the tread pattern that make the behavior of a tire.

56 minutes ago, Planemo said:

That said, many people like yourself have good things to say about MC tyres

The knobby Kenda on the Sherman is a good example of a MC tire that many people like. Although, it does turn like a hog compared to the K66.

 

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I haven't read all the replies yet but I just wanted to give you guys an update. The C-1488 is now on the MSX. I don't wish to hurt anyone's feelings but it annihilates the Chaoyang H5102.

I run it at an even lower pressure and I can easily do complex maneuvers at low speeds. It's more squirrely than my C1488 16x2.5in but only very slightly. Like 1/10 from 0/10, Chaoyang 7/10. :facepalm:

Here are some weights.

Chaoyang h5102 18x3 1367gr (probably has a few thousand km on it). I guess it's 1400+gr new.
Chaoyang inner tube 332 gr

CST c1488 18x3 1325gr (brand new)
CST inner tube 334gr

I really wish CST made a wider C1488. I'm curious to try the C113 2.75-14.

Can you believe that the C1488 is rubbing the shell on the side ever so slightly when I do sharp right turns. I might need to find a way to align the shell. 

Edit: I'm not recommending people to switch from their Chaoyang H5102. I'm just saying that for my 65-70kg and urban street only riding, the CST is better.

Edited by alcatraz
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the grip of the 1488 is way better than the 5102 which is only usable on dry streets. 

c133 is already better on any aspect, weight 1.8kg but it's still on the soft side with more compound and deeper threads

MC grade tire belong to a complete different level of riding, grip is next level and the solid structure complete change the ridind and cornering feeling, specially if you ride aggressively.

for offroad the knobby is king

jm2c

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1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

had you been forced to stay with the Pilot, a lower pressure could’ve helped all aspects of the behavior by quite a lot.

I tried it down to 19psi in the end to try and get bump compliance. It worked to an extent, but handling suffered. Even by that point, it wasn't handling or dealing with bumps as well as the 5102 at 25psi. Thats when I called it a day.

1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

The knobby Kenda on the Sherman is a good example of a MC tire that many people like. Although, it does turn like a hog compared to the K66.

I agree, the Sherman knobby is extremely good for a thick carcass tyre. Surprisingly good. So good in fact that although I am primarily an asphalt rider and would love to try a Michelin City Pro/Pilot to get the low speed turning better, the ability of the knobby to take me off road when I occasionally need it is very handy. Something like a slick Pilot would be all over the place, dicey even on dry grass.

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