Shouldn't pedals be shorter

[kolmog]

If you had pedals that were shorter than your feet, you would get several advantages:

* Pedal overhang; You would be able to grip the pedals with your toes

* You would know exactly where your feet are on the pedals at all times, due to overhang

* You would have more leverage on the pedals

* Less pedal scrape

Disadvantages:

* More foot pain?

* Prob have to have different sizes of pedals for different feet (maybe s/m/l). Perhaps the manufacturers took the view that people with large feet might complain if the pedal was not as big as their foot.

Thoughts?

 

Edit: https://youtu.be/OfoS_MDFHLk?t=74 Seems like problems are due to long pedal

 

Edited September 30, 2021 by kolmog
vid

[.....]

I have large pedals on all my wheels and my feet are still longer than they are with a size 10 shoe. Even my sherman nylonove XL pedals are big and my foot is bigger. I can feel where my feet are in relation to all my pedals. Shorter pedals doesnt allow you as much choice of how far forwards or back from center you can stand. Curling the toes under to grab a foot plate is a sure way to get cramps FAST. It took me a lot of miles to quit trying grab the pedals with my toes on uphill. Pedals are not for leverge, they are for standing. Power pads are for leverage. Big flat pedals are WAY more comfortable.  Pedal scrape happens at the outside edges of the pedals and not front/back. You will find that MOST upgrades include larger pedals. If smaller pedals was an advantage in most cases, we would still see wheels issued with tiny plates made for kid sized chinese feet.

Your vid is of a sherman. They notoriously have low pedals and pedal dip.

Edited October 1, 2021 by ShanesPlanet

[kolmog]

8 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said:

I have large pedals on all my wheels and my feet are still longer than they are with a size 10 shoe. Even my sherman nylonove XL pedals are big and my foot is bigger. I can feel where my feet are in relation to all my pedals. Shorter pedals doesnt allow you as much choice of how far forwards or back from center you can stand.

Right... So standard pedals are a perfect size for you. But this will depend on your foot size; I am a size 8.5, so I can't always feel where my feet are on the pedal, and the sherman pedals are super long.

8 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said:

Shorter pedals doesnt allow you as much choice of how far forwards or back from center you can stand.

I've read alot of times here on the forum that people do this to get more leverage. I think it's a stretch to say that pedals are not for leverage. Not everyone is riding power pads all the time, nor do wheels come with them.

8 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said:

Pedal scrape happens at the outside edges of the pedals and not front/back.

It can happen at front and back quite easily, if you go up or down a curb at an angle.

[yoos]

1 hour ago, kolmog said:

Right... So standard pedals are a perfect size for you. But this will depend on your foot size; I am a size 8.5, so I can't always feel where my feet are on the pedal, and the sherman pedals are super long.

After riding enough on your wheel you should be able to feel where your feet are on the pedal not by directly sensing it with your feet but through wheel feedback and control (how it reacts to your movements and stance). If the feedback does not feel different to what you are used to then your feet are probably in the right position already.

1 hour ago, kolmog said:

I've read alot of times here on the forum that people do this to get more leverage. I think it's a stretch to say that pedals are not for leverage. Not everyone is riding power pads all the time, nor do wheels come with them

Of course pedals are for leverage and longer pedals give more leverage because their edge is further out. But powerpads give a much larger increase in leverage than just longer pedals. It also opens new ways of applying the leverage and gives added stability (more difficult to bounce off).

 

1 hour ago, kolmog said:

It can happen at front and back quite easily, if you go up or down a curb at an angle.

Yes, large pedals are not without drawbacks  still I would prefer large pedals (I have stock KS16S pedals and they are too small even for my 7.5UK=8.5US shoe size). 

At least newer wheels usually have worked out the pedal dip problems (especially problematic in turns) so that width is more important than length for scraping.

10 hours ago, kolmog said:

* Pedal overhang; You would be able to grip the pedals with your toes

* You would know exactly where your feet are on the pedals at all times, due to overhang

* You would have more leverage on the pedals

To have max leverage you put you weight at the edge indeed (gripping the pedal edge to some extent). Still, applying the same gripping technique to the edge of a longer pedal would give even more leverage.

I would still refrain from having your toes in front and downwards of your pedal. Better to scrape the pedal than your toes -- this could be quite catastrophic [I sometimes scrape my shoes in slow tight turns since the Ks16s pedals are small and the clearance is low]

10 hours ago, kolmog said:

* Prob have to have different sizes of pedals for different feet (maybe s/m/l). Perhaps the manufacturers took the view that people with large feet might complain if the pedal was not as big as their foot.

Thoughts?

There is a choice of aftermarket pedals (though they are large in general). For example, hextech pedals (which fit Veteran and begode wheels) now come in 4 sizes:

 250 х 120мм - slim
 250 х 130мм - standard
 270 х 120мм - Long slim
 270 х 135мм - Long standard

Edit: the question of pedal length was surveyed and discussed in this thread previously. 76% voted for 250 mm or longer.

Edited October 1, 2021 by yoos

[Surfling]

Shoe size can be a factor.....

@kolmog I'm the same US size 8.5 - 9 (depending on the shoe brand). If you have the means and inclination, try riding with a shorter pedal and observe.

I like to tinker and have tried it. The smaller pedals gives me a good heel-overhang for better stopping torque - a good safety margin and better ride control. So I replaced all my pedals to the same size as the mten3 (5" x 8"). Got a used one from @ShanesPlanet actually (thanks again, bro).

Oddly enough, I had to revert back to the stock pedals on the MCM5 (5.5" x 9"). Noted that MCM5 pedal hangers are placed more narrow (~ 6") compared to the Mten3 (~ 7.5") and the 16X (~ 8.75"). That width difference might be the culprit.

I was going to grind the pedal length from 9" down to 8" but it seems to work good so far.

 

11 hours ago, yoos said:

Of course pedals are for leverage and longer pedals give more leverage because their edge is further out

 .....obviously, that rule didn't work for me. 

As for COMFORT, with my mten3 and 16X having the same pedal size. I get more foot pain on the mten3  and I'm convinced it's because the smaller wheel feels bumpier and requires more steering attention. The 16X feels like a cadillac. 

On riding style, I try to keep my feet relaxed as much as I can. Relying more on body english and manipulating COG when rolling. No power pads, no complains. 

 

21 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said:

kid sized chinese feet.

I think Yao Ming (former Houston Rockets center), will not agree

Edited October 1, 2021 by Surfling

[.....]

Is it considered leverage when you are merely applying weight? Or does leverage indicate two point of contact? I dont grab with my toes and without power pads I typically dont ride leveraged. Its more of a weight shift. Longer pedals aid in this technique of riding. If I were to use the pedals themselves as levers by grabbing with my toes, I could see how long pedals would require you stand farther from centerline and undermine the leverage with your toes. Im not sure how you would grab a pedal with your heels. Long pedals do have a drawback of going slowly down curbs at angle. I had forgotten about that, as I don't attack curbs and jumps at angle. I suspect an offroad rider could benefit a lot from smaller pedals.

*fwiw, only one of my 3 wheels has powerpads or alterations to stock ride design. Of course, my 18xl and mten came stock with 'big' pedals. I rode the mten, sherman and 18xl with the small pedals too. Sherman stock pedals are pretty long.

Edited October 1, 2021 by ShanesPlanet

[Tawpie]

9 minutes ago, ShanesPlanet said:

I suspect an offroad rider could benefit a lot from smaller pedals.

There's a balance... contact between feet and pedals isn't the best when the ground is rough, so having a large pedal surface provides some protection against getting bounced totally out of position. But large pedals are more apt to get hung up on "stuff", and pedal strikes put you on the ground in no time flat.

I ride in hiking boots so there's no gripping with my toes or feeling where the pedals are under my feet. I have to go entirely by how everything feels. If I'm too far back, I spend more time pressing with the balls of my feet (which hurts after a while). Too far forward and the wheel gets squirrely.

My MTen came with Nikola pedals on it and they were so overly huge it was a bit comical. Maybe they would have been more comfortable, certainly they would have pedal scraped more. I had to do a pedal swap for Tesla pedals, those work just right for me.

Edited October 1, 2021 by Tawpie

[.....]

5 minutes ago, Tawpie said:

My MTen came with Nikola pedals on it and they were so overly huge it was a bit comical. Maybe they would have been more comfortable, certainly they would have pedal scraped more. I had to do a pedal swap for Tesla pedals, those work just right for me.

My newest mten also came with comically large pedals. I bought the last set of slightly smaller (idr the name) e-wheels had, for a hefty sum. The comical pedals were not longer but wider. Its amazing how close we get used to standing to pedals. The slightly wider pedals were biting my ankles all the time while standing. They also scraped like crazy. So yes, there's definitely a limit to how big is usefull and how big is just getting in the way.

Edited October 1, 2021 by ShanesPlanet

[mrelwood]

 

On 10/1/2021 at 2:48 AM, kolmog said:

* Pedal overhang; You would be able to grip the pedals with your toes

Not if you’re wearing shoes though… Unless there is a secondary meaning for the term “to grip” that I don’t know of.

On 10/1/2021 at 2:48 AM, kolmog said:

* You would have more leverage on the pedals

Incorrect. Leverage literally means the distance from the axle center point.

On 10/1/2021 at 2:48 AM, kolmog said:

Perhaps the manufacturers took the view that people with large feet might complain if the pedal was not as big as their foot.

The increase in pedal size we’ve seen over the years comes directly from the community crying for larger and larger pedals.

 

17 hours ago, yoos said:

But powerpads give a much larger increase in leverage than just longer pedals.

They do, but they help with stability in different situations than longer pedals, and they require the user to actively lean on them to give their support. Large pedals give more stability without limiting the ankle movement. Standing on solid ground vs standing on a horizontal pole and leaning against something with your shins.

 

6 hours ago, Surfling said:

Shoe size can be a factor.....

Absolutely! And it’s the reason why large western feet asked for larger pedals than the originally small ones developed for small Asian feet.

 

6 hours ago, Surfling said:

The smaller pedals gives me a good heel-overhang for better stopping torque

 Torque = Force * distance from the pivot point, so it’s not torque that you feel. I’d guess it’s about the added grip as your heel locks behind the pedal edge, and maybe the position of your ankle.

 

6 hours ago, Surfling said:

 .....obviously, that rule didn't work for me.

The literal meaning of the word “leverage” is not a “rule” that might or might not work for someone. What you’re feeling is something else.

 

5 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said:

Is it considered leverage when you are merely applying weight?

Sure. When removing the tire bolts on a car, a longer tool gives you more leverage whether you also touch the pivot point or not.

5 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said:

I suspect an offroad rider could benefit a lot from smaller pedals.

Narrower ones, for sure. But the length of my modified pedals has never been an issue. Quite the opposite, the added control and leverage have felt really really good.

 The V11 rides so high though, that the width hasn’t been an issue, not even once.

[Surfling]

8 hours ago, mrelwood said:

Torque = Force * distance from the pivot point, so it’s not torque that you feel. 

......pft!.....not torque?

if I place my heel further back over the back edge then I'm increasing the distance from the pivot point. 

 

8 hours ago, mrelwood said:

“leverage” is not a “rule” that might or might not work for someone

.....semantics, dude!

[Surfling]

13 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said:

The comical pedals were not longer but wider

When you can, what are the dimensions? 

[.....]

1 hour ago, Surfling said:

When you can, what are the dimensions? 

11x23cm

[winterwheel]

I have a basketful of factory pedals I have taken off wheels, some KS, some GW, and replaced with larger pedals. Anyone who is convinced by any arguments made here that they need smaller pedals that they have now, I'll be happy to let them go for cheap. 

 

 

[Surfling]

@winterwheel  Do you have anything that's 8" (20 cm) long and at least 5.5" (14 cm) wide?

[mrelwood]

6 hours ago, Surfling said:

......pft!.....not torque?

if I place my heel further back over the back edge then I'm increasing the distance from the pivot point.

Umm… yes, and if you wave your hand in the air, that’s even further. But the furthest point where you can apply any force to the pedal is the pedal edge. The part of your foot hanging in the air beyond the pedal edge does not provide any force to the pedal itself, and is not capable of tilting the wheel backward or forward.

6 hours ago, Surfling said:

.....semantics, dude!

Exactly!

“Semantics means the meaning and interpretation of words, signs, and sentence structure.”

https://study.com/academy/lesson/what-is-semantics-definition-examples-quiz.html

So yes, there is a meaning to all words in the written language. Let’s use the same meanings, shall we?

[Surfling]

2 hours ago, mrelwood said:

Umm… yes, and if you wave your hand in the air, that’s even further

you're going off tangent, homie. 

If you can do an Ollie on a skateboard, then you'll catch my drift. 

While I'm here trying to suggest something that might be beneficial to the OP, you come around nitpicking.

Chill out, Daren.

Edited October 2, 2021 by Surfling

[omuretsu]

On 10/2/2021 at 8:59 AM, Surfling said:

......pft!.....not torque?

if I place my heel further back over the back edge then I'm increasing the distance from the pivot point.

With the same pedal, yes. If you're doing this by shortening the pedal and not actually moving your foot further back, then you are accomplishing nothing.

The edge of the pedal is not the pivot point. The center of the wheel would be the pivot point. Shorter pedals only make it harder to place your weight further away from the pivot.

[Surfling]

1 hour ago, omuretsu said:

With the same pedal, yes

..and smh on the rest of that.

Let's get it clear, me and the OP wear the same shoe size. His theory worked for me and I suggest he tries the same.

I'm keepin' it real . Then Einsteins swooped down like flies-on-a-dead-cow with their opinions. 

 

1 hour ago, omuretsu said:

Shorter pedals only make it harder to place your weight further away from the pivot.

That's genius, right there....

[Surfling]

On 10/2/2021 at 11:21 AM, winterwheel said:

Anyone who is convinced by any arguments made here that they need smaller pedals that they have now, I'll be happy to let them go for cheap.

@winterwheel'gna ask again, I'd be interested. Just need the dims..

Edited October 5, 2021 by Surfling

[mrelwood]

 

Quote

I'm keepin' it real . Then Einsteins swooped down like flies-on-a-dead-cow with their opinions. 

 

That's genius, right there....

Time for an administrative reminder:

 Please be respectful towards one another. You don’t need to agree with other’s comments, but I’m sure you can find it in you to step above name calling at the poster himself.

 If you are not able to refute someone’s opinion, leave it be. Don’t attack the other person.

Edited October 5, 2021 by mrelwood

[Richardo]

For real though you can def find some small pedals to try it with. Wouldn't be the weirdest thing that ever happened if you love 'em!

I'm still a beginner and pretty consistently surprised with how much experimentation there is with riding a wheel. Little differences matter quite a bit, and there are more things to mess around with than hours in the day!

[EUC Sharkman]

I have size US 13 feet, and having smaller pedals messed up my foot placement in the beginning. I used to put my foot so that it would cover up the pedals as best as possible. It wasn’t later that I started shifting my feet a little more forward so that my ankle was closer to the axel, or the pedal hanger, rather than behind. This made my toes hang off, which was uncomfortable because toe grip cramped up my foot, but ultimately more comfortable when riding than having my ankles too far behind the axel.

 

Then I got larger pedals to reduce the overhang/toe grip, which solved that original discomfort. Honestly, I think it just comes down to riding comfort, which is a big deal if you’re riding long distances.

[winterwheel]

17 hours ago, Surfling said:

@winterwheel'gna ask again, I'd be interested. Just need the dims..

Didn't realize that was a serious request, I'll check them later today; they're the standard pedals that come with KS 14d/16s, gw-RS, gw-ex etc.

[winterwheel]

No one's mentioned that many of us have offset foot position -- one  forward and one back. Smaller pedals would make it more difficult to ride this way.

Edited October 6, 2021 by winterwheel
spelling

[winterwheel]

On 10/2/2021 at 11:09 AM, Surfling said:

@winterwheel  Do you have anything that's 8" (20 cm) long and at least 5.5" (14 cm) wide?

All the pedals are 8" long or longer, none of them are 5.5" wide. All about 5" wide.