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Hi, This is EUC.SALE  This post have nothing about true.  And just an attack to our shop. 

Case with v10f in Finland, closed. Client pay 235Euro. Not 735euro as written. 45Euro delivery, 90e full disassemble with investigation and all tests. 100e for burned battery BMS module repair, separate cells balancing and recharge all cells to equal voltage.  

Not a warranty case according our warranty  rolls. all information are public. > https://eucsale.com/buying-guide/euc-sale-products-warranty-notes-attention-please-read-before-order.html

And client receive same text warranty card. 

  • Mechanical, chemical, thermal, electric or any other type of damages resulting from incorrect installation, configuration, usage or other activities inconsistent with the operation manual or contradictory to technical specifications attached to the device;
  • Mechanical damage to any part of the equipment caused by acts of an accident or fall or other external factors;

The unicycle come to us unsafe and destroyed by many external factors, crashes, mechanical motor damage. Broken inner shell, broken covers. Burned main board, burned BMS module. Almost extremely discharged battery. 

We made inspection, have all photos. All information was provided to the customer. with a offer to repair i with new parts. New batt, new main board. repair works and shipping. total price was about 800e. 

Client ask us to try to solve his problem by attempting to repair broken parts. To pay Less. 

We agree to help customer. Give him for free new main board. repaired BMS, recharged batt. And charged only 235e for such job. Few dealers in Europe can provide such deep repair service  works.  We can. 

After repair customer refuse to pay us 235e, Asked about pay 100e and after receive rest money and etc. 

Any way. He payed 235e and we send him his V10F. 

So this message are nothing about real. just to broke our reputation. 

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36 minutes ago, DenisH said:

Hi, This is EUC.SALE

Nice of you to respond.

36 minutes ago, DenisH said:

Client pay 235Euro. Not 735euro as written.

The only way to ship the wheel back to you cost the customer 500€. Finnish consumer laws dictate that any shop selling to Finland must provide warranty services in a way that the consumer doesn’t have to pay anything at all. You failed to provide a returning service which for example Voltride does provide, for free.

You declined to provide the required parts as a warranty, and demanded that the whole wheel must be shipped to you instead despite a clear video showing measurements on the output voltage of the failed battery pack.

 

36 minutes ago, DenisH said:

Not a warranty case according our warranty  rolls. all information are public. > https://eucsale.com/buying-guide/euc-sale-products-warranty-notes-attention-please-read-before-order.html

Based on your restrictions, your warranty is not applicable if the EUC has been ridden in anywhere else but paved roads, or if someone has made any “adjustments”, such as setting a lower speed limit.

 And that is the problem. Every single customer of yours fails to meet the criteria for any warranty services.

And that’s the part that people need to know.

 

36 minutes ago, DenisH said:

The unicycle come to us unsafe and destroyed by many external factors, crashes, mechanical motor damage. Broken inner shell, broken covers. Burned main board, burned BMS module. Almost extremely discharged battery.

You provided a new control board as a warranty several weeks before the wheel was shipped to you! The board was to be replaced by the customer, but you didn’t provide any instructions for doing so. You could clearly see that the outer cover had only cracked at the indents where the cover is to be pried open. Now you’re claiming that a wrong opening technique of the cover is a part of declining further warranty services??

The inner shell had absolutely no abnormal wear, and the motor cover only had it’s paint worn out from regular use.

 You are declining warranty because of normal wear on a 4 month old wheel.

 

36 minutes ago, DenisH said:

with a offer to repair

Which you then executed without the customers consent.

 

36 minutes ago, DenisH said:

After repair customer refuse to pay us 235e, Asked about pay 100e and after receive rest money and etc.

To which you replied that either the customer pays or you will damage the wheel.

36 minutes ago, DenisH said:

So this message are nothing about real. just to broke our reputation. 

I know you have a business to protect, but I think it would be more honorable for you to not respond at all than to lie.

 

You received the original control board long before the rest of the wheel was shipped back to you. By your inspection, what was the issue with the original board? My guess is that in your books it was wrongful usage as well.

Heck no, the controller mosfets were simply dangling in the air with zero contact to the thermal plate! It’s a miracle that the wheel lasted as long as it did, even on the slow <60kg rider. It only took a single lift of the wheel without properly pressing the motor kill button to fry the main board and the BMS. If that’s not a warranty case for you, my suggestion is that people shop elsewhere.

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Thanks for responding so quickly! I appreciate all you say but it's just too easy for a customer to feel annoyed with a seller and too easy to effectively try and blackmail them with bad publicity. I can't see anything positive coming from this but perhaps you guys see otherwise :efee565ab0:

 

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On 10/18/2021 at 10:46 PM, mrelwood said:

 

 

EUCsale.com (EUC.sale) = NO warranty.

A Finnish customer has recently paid 735€ in total for V10F warranty repairs and shipping both ways. I examined the wheel myself prior to that, and it was obvious that it was a clear warranty case. EUC.sale lied and bullied the customer to pay for parts and service they didn’t ask for, and threatened to damage the wheel if the customer didn’t pay. By which time the costs had suddenly gone up already.

I strongly advise avoiding EUCsale.com like the plague.

 

5 hours ago, mrelwood said:

Nice of you to respond.

The only way to ship the wheel back to you cost the customer 500€. Finnish consumer laws dictate that any shop selling to Finland must provide warranty services in a way that the consumer doesn’t have to pay anything at all. You failed to provide a returning service which for example Voltride does provide, for free.

You declined to provide the required parts as a warranty, and demanded that the whole wheel must be shipped to you instead despite a clear video showing measurements on the output voltage of the failed battery pack.

 

Based on your restrictions, your warranty is not applicable if the EUC has been ridden in anywhere else but paved roads, or if someone has made any “adjustments”, such as setting a lower speed limit.

 And that is the problem. Every single customer of yours fails to meet the criteria for any warranty services.

And that’s the part that people need to know.

 

You provided a new control board as a warranty several weeks before the wheel was shipped to you! The board was to be replaced by the customer, but you didn’t provide any instructions for doing so. You could clearly see that the outer cover had only cracked at the indents where the cover is to be pried open. Now you’re claiming that a wrong opening technique of the cover is a part of declining further warranty services??

The inner shell had absolutely no abnormal wear, and the motor cover only had it’s paint worn out from regular use.

 You are declining warranty because of normal wear on a 4 month old wheel.

 

Which you then executed without the customers consent.

 

To which you replied that either the customer pays or you will damage the wheel.

I know you have a business to protect, but I think it would be more honorable for you to not respond at all than to lie.

 

You received the original control board long before the rest of the wheel was shipped back to you. By your inspection, what was the issue with the original board? My guess is that in your books it was wrongful usage as well.

Heck no, the controller mosfets were simply dangling in the air with zero contact to the thermal plate! It’s a miracle that the wheel lasted as long as it did, even on the slow <60kg rider. It only took a single lift of the wheel without properly pressing the motor kill button to fry the main board and the BMS. If that’s not a warranty case for you, my suggestion is that people shop elsewhere.

This texting are very subjective point of view. 

This is why we have warranty rolls. officially published on our web.

Regarding your point of view. 1 time buy. damage it in total. and seller must cover it included with a transport. Little bit funny. Every user see the warranty rolls and if client disagree just free to choose another shop. But never be like You must because I want.

Regarding Service repair for BMS You ask to Help you with repair, we agree. The Service engineer not GOD, he can not scan, with power of mind, defective board inside and exactly say what broken and how long it will took by working hours to repair. Just start his job step by step fixing board, Fuses, Diodes, drivers and etc. after job was done calculates, materials + Hours was spend to fix. 100Euro not a huge price compare to the new batt pack. 

We understand you are unhappy with a such situation, we also not happy about that. But Your wheel was damaged in all specs. Motor damaged, motor cover looks like you used it like circular saw, Inner shell, from top, near Serial number broken by half both sides. water no can easy go inside the wheel and made short cut, I'm first time see such strong damages, both side covers multiple damages of asphalt contact.  V10F very good robust product tested in time. Riders rides 10 000km with out any problems.  And according damages was done to the EUC it is no warranty covered. 

EUC.SALE one of the biggest distributor in Europe. With 1000+ happy customers. Very sorry, But we can not help you this time and cover damages was done to the wheel by not prompt usage.

Regards Euc.Sale

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I am not picking any side here but it is a very good example of one pf the biggest problems I see with getting EUC more accessible to more potential riders.

I worked as a reseller for IT, now I do customer support for IT products. One of the challenges is set right customer expectations. If you don't then you will end up with an unhappy customer and no way around this will cost money. 

With EUCs there are so many things you can claim to avoid providing warranty. But you still have to prove this inside EU within the first 6 months. after that most EU countries has a 18 months reclamation rights where the proof is the customers responsibility. But this is one of the problems both reseller and customer don't want to talk about Because who would start a sale and close it with when you have problems we provide this for you? That is what every customer should consider buy often price considerations outweighs this. I am not putting blame on either side because I think both have to engage this discussion.

And no matter what a reseller write in his or her terms, they cannot sidestep purchase laws, but that is always the law or the reseller. The customer is acting as importer when buying non-domestic. And most have little experience about what this means sine most only buy cheaper stuff.

Now here on this forum many things are shared with best of interest, one could argue if this cost sales then the reseller might look into why. That said I fully agree you have to take everything with a pinch of salt of what you read. That said a customer should also know posting something that gives a bad viewpoint means you have closed the door for anything at the resellers goodwill.

I can say I have had my fair share of problems too, buying 3 or my 5 wheels as 1st batch.From what I do gather from the reseller topic is some resellers do a good job, but this is not just selling it is more important in what happens in after sales to create happy loyal customers. One of my resellers went out of business very fast after my 2nd purchase. The other still remains and he helped me a lot in a bad situation for both of us. 

The reseller that closed due other things I believe but this played a big part too:

The good reseller is @EUniCycles.eu, and thank again for the help you gave me with my KS16X.

When we talk after sales it seems to me the ewheels.com @Jason McNeiland EUCO do a great job in the US. Unfortunately we don't see as many of those in the EU. I would like to have a great reseller in my country. We seem to have on in Stockholm, but so far this reseller do not appeal to me. 

So my next EUC are likely to be bought again from https://eunicycles.eu/en/

Take-away from this in short:

Now one of the good things I do think this reseller did was to respond here so people can make up their own minds. It is all about making informed decisions.

But one have to realise that 1 unhappy customer makes a lot of noise. 1 happy customer isn't often as loud. So it very easy to ruin a good reputation as a reseller. We have seen the same with shops from Aliexpress too. 

When looking at buying any product it isn't just the cost of purchase you need to look at, it is the purchase price and cost to serve and risk of service you need to consider. And if that business still are around when you need it.

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On 10/21/2021 at 6:24 PM, mike_bike_kite said:

Thanks for responding so quickly! I appreciate all you say but it's just too easy for a customer to feel annoyed with a seller and too easy to effectively try and blackmail them with bad publicity. I can't see anything positive coming from this but perhaps you guys see otherwise :efee565ab0:

 

I understand the point of view yet I can't say if this is happening here. But I do know that @mrelwoodis a stand up guy (met him IRL recently again).

I do see thing in a different way. You can read this in my other post here in this thread. But I think in general you (as in each individual) need to be careful with going too deep into public debate if you story isn't 100% correct as it can backfire fast and big time, goes for both customer and reseller.

I just wounder why this case didn't get resolved if you have 1000s of happy customers.

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I'm absolutely sure mrelwood is a stand up guy and I'm sorry if anything I said came across different. Equally, the guy who is complaining bought the wheel for a cheap price because the wheel came with no warranty etc. He then crashes the wheel enough to damage the case - a V10F is a fairly rugged wheel so that takes some fairly decent crashes. Then he expects the seller to help out with repairing the wheel and pay for shipping? To me that just seems wrong but obviously we have different views on this.

I bought my current Nikola Plus for a great price from a seller who made it clear he offered no warranty. The seller actually delivered the wheel to my house and took me through all the set up and made sure everything worked fine for me. We then ended up spending a couple of hours chatting over tea and biscuits in my garage. If the wheel didn't work immediately then obviously I'd want my money back, if it died a week or two later then I'd definitely expect some advice on how to fix it. If I smashed it enough to break the case in various crashes and it then stopped working then I'd probably be looking in the mirror to see where the fault lay. 

Obviously the law is different in different countries and this is an international forum and we can't be expected to know the law in each country. I'm not saying you or mrelwood is wrong, I'm simply giving my opinion and why I think that way.

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4 hours ago, mike_bike_kite said:

I'm absolutely sure mrelwood is a stand up guy

Hmmm, maybe... but

ngcb11

There's not much we can depend on with absolute certainty; least of all euc warranty repair

As wheels get more expensive, our risk only grows. Only spend what you can afford to lose...

Edited by RayRay
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On 10/21/2021 at 4:11 PM, mrelwood said:

You provided a new control board as a warranty several weeks before the wheel was shipped to you!

you are stating that this store provides no warranties, yet you also say a board was send on a warranty?
 

On 10/21/2021 at 4:11 PM, mrelwood said:

Heck no, the controller mosfets were simply dangling in the air with zero contact to the thermal plate! 

Did you notice that on a brand new wheel, or at a state where it had already the shell broken and the motor paint worn off due to normal usage?
If the latter, why are you certain the fets were not moved out of place due to shock?

 

If indeed the fets were not in contact with the heatsink, I think a warning should be made against buying inmotion products, it looks like gotway is the way to go if one wants QC after all. 

Edited by enaon
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On 9/28/2021 at 10:56 AM, sadarahu said:

Inmotion

Inmotions are said to be the most waterproof so that makes them a lot more safe. Inmotions are not know for having as much torque unless you look at the V12 or v11 but I vote quality design over speed anytime! That being said I love my KS it runs so smoothly!

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1 minute ago, AeonDrone said:

Inmotions are said to be the most waterproof so that makes them a lot more safe. Inmotions are not know for having as much torque unless you look at the V12 or v11 but I vote quality design over speed anytime! That being said I love my KS it runs so smoothly!

My comment was supposed to be on the black humor side.  

 

I fail to see how a fet not touching the sink leads to a warning on the retailer, and not the manufacturer. 


 

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3 hours ago, enaon said:

I fail to see how a fet not touching the sink leads to a warning on the retailer, and not the manufacturer. 

The retailer handles warranty and then deals with manufacturers according to their deal. Yes, Inmotion seems to have failed the assembly but handling of fixing it was retailer’s responsibility. In this case it seems like the retailer has tried to set up conditions on warranty that are not in accordance with EU law. 

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8 hours ago, enaon said:

you are stating that this store provides no warranties, yet you also say a board was send on a warranty?

The warranty required by law is that the customer is provided either a new or a fixed product, without additional cost. The seller didn’t provide any of those.

They started the process by providing one broken part, the mainboard. But as the battery pack turned out to be faulty as well, they stopped providing any warranty services.

8 hours ago, enaon said:

Did you notice that on a brand new wheel, or at a state where it had already the shell broken and the motor paint worn off due to normal usage?

The shell was clearly and cleanly broken only from the spots that are bent with a screwdriver when opening the shell. The V10F is very difficult to open without cracking the shell, so it wasn’t a surprise at all that the owner had cracked the shell at those exact spots when opening it up.

 Other than those cracks, the shell didn’t have any damage that would’ve looked like anything beyond the first few tumbles of a beginner rider.

8 hours ago, enaon said:

If the latter, why are you certain the fets were not moved out of place due to shock?

Mosfets or transistors in general are never simply resting against a heat sink only supported by the soldered legs. On any product. Mass production simply cannot provide anywhere near the accuracy it would require to have every mosfet on every V10F pushed towards the heat sink at a sufficient pressure. Besides, there would have to be a thermal plate in between for the mosfets not to short out. There wasn’t.

8 hours ago, enaon said:

If indeed the fets were not in contact with the heatsink, I think a warning should be made against buying inmotion products, it looks like gotway is the way to go if one wants QC after all. 

If one single unit out of tens of thousands is enough for you to discriminate all products of the same brand, how on earth are you even mentioning GW??

 

Now, it does feel wrong for me to step in with the issue as a third party, but given the situation as a whole, I do feel obligated to share what the customers have experienced. Because the communication went wrong in almost every turn.

 Is it possible that I don’t know the exact truth about every detail? Of course it is. The owner couple (that I call friends) could be pathological liers for all I know, and they could have planned an elaborate hoax to get me to believe them instead of the seller.

 But based on my past personal experiences with the seller, my experience with the wheel in question, and the extremely unlikely probability of the above situation, I have found it reasonable to trust the customer in this case. To be frank, they don’t have any of the knowledge about wheels it would take to have been able to fool me like that.

 If the customer hadn’t utilized the warranty at all in any step of the way, I would’ve replaced the failed mosfet and attached them all properly to the heat sink. And I would’ve replaced the failed fuse on the BMS. Cost would’ve been 10-15€ in parts and maybe 100€ worth of my time. By utilizing the warranty from another EU country, they have now paid 735€ + 50€ = 785€ in total.

That’s not how it should be.

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Seems the divide in opinion is whether the law of the buyers or the sellers country should apply. There must be some EU regulations regarding this.

edit: or if warranty should be regulated at all.

Edited by div
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17 minutes ago, div said:

Seems the divide in opinion is whether the law of the buyers or the sellers country should apply. There must be some EU regulations regarding this.

There is an EU consumer law applicable for whole common market.

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https://europa.eu/youreurope/business/dealing-with-customers/consumer-contracts-guarantees/consumer-guarantees/index_en.htm

 

EU law also stipulates that you must give the consumer a minimum 2-year guarantee (legal guarantee) as a protection against faulty goods, or goods that don't look or work as advertised. In some countries national law may require you to provide longer guarantees.

 

After-sale responsibilities/faulty products

If the product you sold turns out to be faulty — or doesn't look or work as advertised — within the timeframe of the legal guarantee, you are responsible for this. In some countries this can also be the case if you are the manufacturer or importer.

When can your customer claim redress?

Be aware that you are legally bound by any public statements you make about your products, especially through advertisements or on labels.

If you are a retailer, your customers can ask for redress under the legal guarantee provided by EU law - if an item:

  • doesn't match the product description
  • has different qualities from the model advertised or shown to the client
  • is not fit for purpose - either its standard purpose or a specific purpose ordered by the customer which you accepted
  • doesn't show the quality and performance normal in products of the same type
  • wasn't installed correctly - either by you, or by the customer, due to shortcomings in the instructions

If you inform your customer that the product you are going to sell has quality problems, they cannot then claim redress from you about this particular defect.

 

What can your customer claim?

Your customers have the right to ask you to do any of the following without any charge (for postage, labour, material, etc.):

  • repair the product
  • replace the product
  • reduce the price
  • cancel the contract and reimburse them in full (in some countries, the sales contract cannot be cancelled if the fault is minor, e.g. scratch on a CD case)

 

Repair or replacement

In most countries there is a "hierarchy of remedies". This means that your customer must firstly request that you repair the product, or replace it if repair is not a viable option (e.g. too expensive). You must do this within a reasonable time and without significant inconvenience for your customer.

Price reduction or full refund

Another option for your customer is that you give them a price reduction or a full refund, but only if repair or replacement:

  • is not possible
  • would be too expensive, given the nature of the product/defect
  • would be very inconvenient for the customer
  • cannot be completed by your business within a reasonable time

 

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1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

If one single unit out of tens of thousands is enough for you to discriminate all products of the same brand, how on earth are you even mentioning GW??

 

thanks for not being offended from my post, it was meant to be black humor :)

I understand your point, I have been in your shoes my self, trying to short out problems for other users because I have more experience,  but think that the same way you give inmotion the benefit of a doubt because just one unit you know off was on gotway's level QC, you should maybe do the same with the retailer. 

You are a well respected member here, your "why I ride video" is pure class, so comments like "No warranty" when a board was send, or "worn off motor paint due to normal usage" makes you no justice I think. 

 

Edited by enaon
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5 hours ago, UniVehje said:

The retailer handles warranty and then deals with manufacturers according to their deal. Yes, Inmotion seems to have failed the assembly but handling of fixing it was retailer’s responsibility. In this case it seems like the retailer has tried to set up conditions on warranty that are not in accordance with EU law. 

yes, but in this case the mosfets were on the air, this could have ended a lot worse than the buyer paying 700 euros, mrelwood friends were very lucky I think, I have never heard of a similar case, even on gotways. 

 

So waranty aside, I find it strange that this is just an argument for a claim, for balance reasons I would expect the same frustration level against inmotion. 

 

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Quote

You are a well respected member here, your "why I ride video" is pure class

Thank you for the very kind words! :wub:

Quote

comments like "No warranty" when a board was send

I do see your point, and my wording could’ve been more precise. Although, I’m not sure how to formulate it better so it would describe in just a few words that several aspects of the EU warranty law were not followed, and only some of the non-functional parts were provided, which didn’t make the wheel to function…?

Quote

"worn off motor paint due to normal usage" 

The wheel wasn’t “brand new”, it had been used for about three months. I didn’t even inspect the worn rings on the motor very closely, since I’ve seen similar marks on several EUC motors before. If the pedal hangers were too loose causing them to touch the motor cover: obviously a warranty issue. If the pedal brackets were bent or somehow softer than usual: again a warranty issue. If a rock or a solid piece of mud had been stuck between the pedal hangers and the motor cover long enough to cause wear: I call it normal wear, and it should definitely not cause both the mainboard and the battery pack to fail. If it did, there is an issue with the wheel design if it doesn’t allow riding on gravel roads, or even on pavement that has a few pebbles. I should check to confirm, but I’m pretty sure the V10F manual doesn’t prohibit riding on gravel roads, and it is definitely reasonable to expect the wheel to be capable of doing that.

Besides, if it would’ve been a rock large enough to halt the motor instantly (which is when the motor currents do rise to dangerous levels), the motor cover wouldn’t have had smooth areas for the paint to wear out from, but deep grooves that would’ve lasted for a maximum of a few full turns of the wheel, and ending abruptly. There would be scratches with deep grooves.

I can’t think of any way for the worn rings to form that could be interpreted as mishandling the wheel or using it differently than what the wheel was intended for.

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16 hours ago, enaon said:

My comment was supposed to be on the black humor side.  

 

I fail to see how a fet not touching the sink leads to a warning on the retailer, and not the manufacturer. 


 

Then you need to read on any laws that gives customer warranty or reclamation rights. 

These are always given towards the reseller. What the reseller do towards distribution or manufactor is not a matter for the end consumer. The idea is to give the customer rights as the small part Vs the bigger part, the reseller. One cannot assume a customer have the same expertise as a reseller. So it is to level out this advantage in expected knowledge. 

Also on a side note, using sarcasm or black humour or irony might work fine in other [laces but on a global internet forum this is often misunderstood due to language and you can't see the person putting this across. When pulling out this card it really doesn't excuse any comment made. One should still consider if this will upset people. 

Now I do understand not all are layers and experts in trade laws. And that is why I see this as a good topic to share experiences. It also serves for resellers to understand why people in other countries expect something different from warranties and service.

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7 hours ago, enaon said:

So waranty aside, I find it strange that this is just an argument for a claim, for balance reasons I would expect the same frustration level against inmotion. 

The owner did say at some point that she’ll never buy Inmotion again, so the frustration definitely exists to that direction as well. But as I said before, while a single case of a missing thermal plate is a bad mistake from the manufacturer, a single case of anything can happen when mass producing any products. And that is exactly what the warranty exists for: manufacturing defects.

Me ranting about any single mass produced item would not be fair, and it would be completely unreasonable and unfair for me to hope to redirect sales to other manufacturers because of it.

 Buying at a higher price locally or as close to home as possible is usually supported due to warranty services alone. Offering warranty services and communicating directly with the customer for several emails spanning through several weeks is not a mass produced item. It’s (almost) always a human that determines whether a case is to be taken under warranty, because it needs to be. It is not reasonable to expect repeated mistakes from one company when messaging to one customer.

I see this case and the other EucSale experiences I’ve heard about as a huge issue in the seller’s general attitude towards their customers. I feel that they are abusing their role as an EU seller. That is not something I can just skip with a shake of shoulders. I think their behavior is unreasonable and that they should be held accountable for it. I consider me bringing this issue up in the local and global communities as a fair thing to do.

 Don’t buy local. Support Aliexpress! :P

(Seriously though: Investigate first the seller you buy from, local AND Aliexpress alike.)

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