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build in charger why not ?


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I have many chargers since I have many wheels.  Would it be possible to build a EUC  that could just be plugged into the 220V socket directly (110V in USA/UK I Guess?)  Is that technically possible to do?   https://www.tvh.com/blog/when-do-you-opt-for-a-built-in-or-stand-alone-traction-battery-charger

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I dont want new chargers for every new wheel also they are expensive I dont believe increase in weight, size and complexity will be substantial 

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Im wondering if theres more certifications required when a device has internal charger? I can safely say that if there is, you wont be seeing internal chargers anytime soon. We all know the companies that make these devices, arent trying to force MORE testing and certs on themselves. ALl that stuff costs time and $$.

I use the same charger for my mtens as my scooter :)

Edited by ShanesPlanet
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1 minute ago, Finn Bjerke said:

Soon ill have 84V and 100V and 127V wheels .......One universal charger would be nice and better: bujild in.

flip side is.. ONE universal charger goes bad and you cant charge ANY of them. :)

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It would be nice if we can have one universal, adjustable, user-friendly charger but maybe better external and not built-in into the wheel.

Simply, more parts means more things can go wrong as explained by @yoos above.

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2 hours ago, yoos said:

Built-in chargers are a bad idea for many reasons:

  1. The wheel with built-in charger will be slightly heavier and bulkier
  2. It will add another weakness/fragility point to the wheel. You need to protect and waterproof the charging electronics as well as you protect the controller. And you cannot make the charger fast, or you would need to add active cooling.
  3. From the above it is clear that a built-in charger will be more expensive and complicated to make. External chargers are a common, standard piece of consumer electronics, you can order them easily (both as a rider and as a manufacturer). Making a built-in charger requires R&D, compromises, trials and errors.
  4. From 3 it is clear that you will pay more for a wheel with built-in charger than one with a standard external brick charger.
  5. If a built-in charger fails you cannot use the wheel, it should be repaired. If an external charger fails you can quickly buy a new one, or borrow one, or simply use a compatible one if you have many wheels. Much more convenient.
  6. If you have a built-in charger you are stuck with the charging rate it provides. You can perhaps buy an external fast charger and use that, but then you will be stuck with a wheel with a useless charger sitting inside which you have paid for (see 3) but cannot resell, unlike a stock charger.

What we should demand, however, are universal charging ports (like usb-c in the phone and laptop industry). In the future wheels could perhaps be sold without charger (just like companies recently started selling phones and other small devices with usb cable but without adapter/charger) at a minor discount.

I think it is already possible to buy a capable fast charging device that can work at different voltages (67,84,100,126 etc, whatever we need). But I have not researched this since I am happy with the stock charger.

 

Not sure I agree with most of the things written here. I have personally built 3-amp chargers into 2 of my wheels (MSuper and Monster V2). I love the convenience and had almost no issues with the process or results.

1. The added weight was negligible, basically unnoticeable.

2. They were built into the empty spaces already incorporated into the wheel so didn't require any additional shielding or protection.

3. More complicated to make: only slightly. More expensive: not significantly.

4. You will only pay significantly more for the wheel if you are comparing the price of a wheel that comes with no charger (internal or external) to one that comes with a charger built into it already. But honestly if the manufacturers planned it out correctly, the difference in cost of integrating the charging electronics into the wheel rather than just tossing an external brick into the box after the fact wouldn't be that large, if it was noticeable at all.

5. If a built-in charger fails then you absolutely would NOT lose use of the wheel. You just use an external one instead! I can not think of ANY reason a manufacturer would not keep the external charge port IN ADDITION TO the internal charger. They could even be used in tandem if you wanted to charge faster than a single charger alone!

6. Correct, you would not normally be able to change the internal charger if for example you wanted one with a faster charging rate (unless it was modular which would be AWESOME). However this isn't really a problem depending on how you use it.

 

Overall, whether or not an internal charger makes sense is really dependent on the rider and their use-case for the wheel. If someone ABSOLUTELY REQUIRES a 10-amp charger because they blast along at full speed on a Veteran Sherman or equivalent wheel and need to recharge from empty to full mid-ride, then you're right, an internal charger makes almost no sense -- it would be too big, too heavy, and require too much cooling for it to be practical. However, if you are going on a nice (long) leisurely cruise and just want the peace of mind knowing that you can stop anywhere to grab a bite to eat and charge up a little without having to carry a bulky/heavy brick in your backpack, then having a smaller 2-3 amp charger built into a wheel is more convenient than I can put into words. And I can say that from personal experience.

Anyway, different strokes for different folks I guess.  

 

 

Edited by Arbolest
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dont kid youself. Buying a 3rd party shit cheap charger is a LOT easier and cheaper on a mass scale, compared to designing and building one in house/custom. Just more liability and more crap to break. The reason is simple... $$. If it was not a big deal and only benefits, why are so many consumer electronics deciding to keep the power supplies seperate? What happens if a nations power grid is a different frequency than another? DO they have to incorporate voltage sensing or assume people will flip it to the correct input frequency? Will they need to create different versions of the same wheel, just to ensure charging capability? I'd much rather them concern themselves more with the actual wheel involved. No need to complicate a device that isnt exactly the best built things on the planet.

I personally wouldnt pay an extra dime for an onboard charger. 99% of my rides dont deplete a battery fully. Bringing a quality charger with me on vacation is no big deal. Having the charger being external, allow me to easily monitor it and it can stay cooler/safer. A quality charger weighs something and takes SOME room. Id rather they put more batteries in it or add some speakers...

I totally get why you did what you did @Arbolest. If an internal charger fit my needs, I would also create one and install it. I do bet that you spent more time and money and made it properly tho. Can we assume the same from any euc company and it not come at a HUGE price jump? I bet those boys that live near car charging stations would LOVE a converter built in. Imagine a full charge in lickity split from a self serv public station?!

Edited by ShanesPlanet
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Maybe some of my comments were ambiguous. I wasn't suggesting the cost of designing and properly integrating a custom charger from scratch would be equivalent. I kind of had in mind my simple, DIY/hacky way of dropping in pre-fab charger electronics into an empty void in a wheel. Unprofessional, I know, but it works and I like it.

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13 minutes ago, Arbolest said:

Maybe some of my comments were ambiguous. I wasn't suggesting the cost of designing and properly integrating a custom charger from scratch would be equivalent. I kind of had in mind my simple, DIY/hacky way of dropping in pre-fab charger electronics into an empty void in a wheel. Unprofessional, I know, but it works and I like it.

I think it can have it benefits tho. If a company were to PROPERLY design a QUALITY charger to put inside the wheel, they could closely control the quality and circuit. THey could also tailor make the charger output to maximize charge rates or battery safety or whatever they deemed suitable. HIgh quality music equipment typically incorporates quality power supplies and proper shielding and VERY use specific voltages, to ensure the best operation possible. Some try to do this with external supplies, but they inevitably push the boundaries of acceptable quality over time, when this happens. Tbf, if i trusted an euc company to make top tier products down to the very last bolt, I would PREFER their internal charger that meets their strict requirements.  If it was internal, it would be VERY difficult for it to be countereit, and i would know exactly WHO was to credit for the quality of the circuit in total. However, this would only make sense IF I trusted the euc company and their practices, above those of the quality external charges we curretly have available. ITs painfully obvious that the supplied external chargers are typically crap and hardly specd. So, do we trust the company who is pushing this crap on us from a  3rd party, to step up and do an even better job?

Edited by ShanesPlanet
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If you put a charger into the wheel, that's xxx cubic centimeters less volume available for batteries and springy suspensions, and aren't we all about mo batteries and less bumpy rides? New wheels are all about packing 90 lbs of features into a 65 lb package. I'll be surprised when someone builds the charger in... there are a lot of good reasons mentioned above for leaving the charger external.

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Considering how much a mere 1.5A external charger heats up, I would never put a charger inside the wheel next to the batteries, or even the controller.

5 hours ago, Paul A said:

Snap on battery pack(s), like on drills, allowing for quick change to a reserve/spare?

Too many issues and risks to incorporate in a 67+ volt dual battery pack wheel.

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Adds 3% weight to an S18 (25Kg) this might not seem like much but would impact on speed/acceleration and range even if only slightly.  As mentioned previously as battery tech improves and with current bigger batteries; range will become less of an issue and hence needing to charge on route. Its something else to go wrong or break especially going off road. Plus the cost does make a big difference to businesses. Imagine $10 extra cost x 2000 wheels= $20000 extra initial outlay. Then the time constrains to add this additional component etc etc,  Interesting idea though.

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@Arbolest indeed, it is not that hard to diy a charger into your wheel, if space allows and you have the skills. However, I am not sure that compact wheels (mten3, mcm5, v8, ks14, ks16) have enough space [I am just guessing].

I also suspect that the majority of EUC users have EUCs with enough range for their use case to avoid charging anywhere but at home in 90% of cases. I commute on a 16S and have to climb stairs both at home and at work, I would not want even a 100g extra weight in the wheel.

Anyway, I think a built-in charger is a great EUC mod for some users and could perhaps be offered by ewheels or other shops as a custom option (if the wheel does indeed allow). But I would prefer to always have the option to buy a wheel without one.

I hope (and expect) in the future when EVs become more widespread there will be universal PEV chargerswith host-device negotiated voltage and current available everywhere, like gas stations and the "built-in vs external" problem will become moot. If I understand correctly, such universality is already implemented with usb-c power delivery for phones, laptops etc. This is very convenient and I use my laptop charger to also charge my phone. The laptop charger supplies 3A @5V, higher than most included phone chargers (which are slow, usually 1A or 2A to cut costs and to force customers to buy a separate fast charger). However the USB-c power delivery standard only goes up to 20V and 100W, which is too low even for scooters and EUCs (and terribly slow for a car).

 

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1 minute ago, Paul A said:

Maybe one day EUC charging will be available at Tesla car charge stations.

There is a vlog somewhere on Youtube  where someone has used an adapter to charge their EUC at car charging stations. If I remember there is a company that produces such cables. Need to google.

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2 hours ago, The Brahan Seer said:

There is a vlog somewhere on Youtube  where someone has used an adapter to charge their EUC at car charging stations. If I remember there is a company that produces such cables. Need to google.

Search for type 2 adapter (or whatever is the common low power plug in your area), there should be quite a few.

Very handy, especially now that we can’t hang at eating places as much as before.

Edit: it’s fairly bulky yes.

Edited by div
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1 hour ago, yoos said:

Anyway, I think a built-in charger is a great EUC mod for some users and could perhaps be offered by ewheels or other shops as a custom option (if the wheel does indeed allow). But I would prefer to always have the option to buy a wheel without one.

:cheers:

I definitely support this 100%   I didn't mean to imply that I think every wheel should come with a mandatory built-in charger, I just got excited thinking about wheel mods like I typically do.  :innocent1:

 

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I built a charger into my MSuper a few years back. It had plenty of room and I could use two chargers at the same time. It is not a big deal. It is best to keep the regular charging system available. 
 

Universal Charger: 

A universal charger would be easy to make. The hard part it getting the EUC companies to develop a standard. You would need a standard plug and signaling system. 
 

How it works: 

The charger would first have to ask what voltage then what amperage. This could be very simple. You could use data communication or something much simpler. Place a resistor in the wheel being charged. The battery charger reads the resistance and charges accordingly. Or at least limits the amps. 
 

Example: 

first resistor 

100 ohms = 67 volts 

200 ohms = 84 volts 

300 ohms = 100 volts 

400 ohms = undefined 

500 ohms = 126 volts 

second resistor 

1000 ohms = 2 amps 

1100 ohms = 3 amps 

1200 ohms = 5 amps 

I am sure someone could come up with a better table. Only one resistor is need if the table is clear enough. (150 = 67v at 2 amps) 

 

 

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