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Foot Placement


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9 hours ago, rcgldr said:

Would you consider feet centered so that toes and heels are equal distance from pedal edges too far back, or would too far back be a bit back from centered?

 

3 hours ago, RockyTop said:

Yes, I would consider that too far back.

The confusing part for me is that the beginner videos made by EUCO, Kuji Rolls, and Wrong Way state to have the feet centered on pedals, and looking at the foot placement in those videos, they mean toe and heel equal distant from pedal edges. Others state ball and heel equal distant from pedal edges. As for me, toe and heel equal distant is stable, while ball and heel equal distant is wobbly. I don't know what the experience of other beginner riders has been other than what I've seen in videos.

Edited by rcgldr
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16 minutes ago, rcgldr said:

 

The confusing part for me is that the beginner videos made by EUCO, Kuji Rolls, and Wrong Way state to have the feet centered on pedals, and looking at the foot placement in those videos, they mean toe and heel equal distant from pedal edges. Others state ball and heel equal distant from pedal edges. As for me, toe and heel equal distant is stable, while ball and heel equal distant is wobbly. I don't know what the experience of other beginner riders has been other than what I've seen in videos.

I didnt hardly watch any 'learn to ride' videos. I found that it was putting me into the mindset of over-thinking it all. Combined with the fact that its all opinions and styles vary... My suggest is to quit watching someone else tell you how to do something, as theres no need to mimic anyone else. Just keep trying to find what works for YOU. Being wobbly and having lack of control is simply from lack of experience. As people try a million things and over focus, they are still gaining the one thing that really makes a difference.... experience. Its really simple for me... I try something and if it works, great. I try something else and if it doesnt work, great.  I revisit different styles regularly. The one thing that works above all else is simply putting hours down on the wheel. Hell, I ride on tip toes at 35mph+ at times with my heels pointed 90degrees out from the wheel. Over time, youll find that foot placement is but a small part of the bigger picture. Drastic changes in placement can help alleviate pain and can stretch your legs a bit. Even with drastic placement, its possible to maintain control and ride just fine. The proof is in watching @pico. I doubt hes focusing on his exact foot placement as much as he's focusing on the bigger picture of overall balance/leverage.

Edited by ShanesPlanet
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3 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said:

Just keep trying to find what works for YOU.

True, but the OP is asking for a starting point, a recommended initial foot position for a beginner that has never ridden before, as opposed to adjusting foot position based on experience. The OP's question was about inwards | outwards placement, and the most common advice is that beginners should start with the inside of the riders ankles close to or touching the shell, and using ankle pads and|or high top shoes. Although not asked for, this thread evolved into including recommended initial forwards | backwards foot position for a beginner that has never ridden before. I've already posted about what I've seen in videos and the advice I got from 2 experienced riders.

Edited by rcgldr
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Maybe find a fence to stand next to, and hold on with one hand.

Experiment with foot positions, while staying stationary.

Being stationary, when the body's center of gravity and wheel's center of gravity are lined up vertically. 

This might be the starting point/position.

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DIfferent strokes for different folks. Some like to dive into the pool and try to swim, others read books about it first...

@The Brahan Seerpretty much nailed it in the very first response.

As for fences. I would like to remind everyone to NEVER put your fingers in between links on chain fencing. The reasons should be fairly obvious.

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2 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said:

DIfferent strokes for different folks

+1 on that!

....some variables to consider; foot size, natural orientation, (pronation, supination), ankle mobilty etc. 

While it's smart to be diligent and such, no amount of thinking/analyzing can replace feel, mileage and adaptation.

Yes, go with what feels most comfortable for YOU - for confidence. It's a progressive process so keep riding and experimenting. You'll get to the point where you'll be adjusting your foot placement on the go with ease.

I ride with my heels hanging out more than my toes. I use smaller (mten3 size) pedals on all my wheels. That might change over time.

Again to each his own......

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On 9/17/2021 at 11:02 AM, rcgldr said:

My main issue is conflicting input from experts.

That’s the main reason I originally started to talk about this in the first place way back when. My guess is that most “expert riders“ (how should one determine that btw? ;) ) never laid a strain of though into the matter, and since it’s all intuitive for them at that point, they don’t see that centering the shoe can’t be based in reason.

On 9/17/2021 at 9:28 PM, rcgldr said:

As for me, toe and heel equal distant is stable, while ball and heel equal distant is wobbly.

You are the first person I’ve heard saying this, and without photos or a video I really don’t know what the issue is.

On 9/17/2021 at 9:34 PM, ShanesPlanet said:

My suggest is to quit watching someone else tell you how to do something, as theres no need to mimic anyone else.

To me it sounds a bit like letting every beginner reinvent the wheel. There’s a huge amount of collective information on which learning methods work well and which ones don’t, to progress is to take advantage of this.

I think we’re doing it even right now as we discuss our experiences on which foot positions and methods of learning have worked for us, or which ones we’ve seen working for others. I find all this extremely valuable!

On 9/17/2021 at 9:34 PM, ShanesPlanet said:

Being wobbly and having lack of control is simply from lack of experience.

This is not completely true though. I’ve seen it many times with riders at various stages of “beginner”. Lack of experience definitely causes wobbling and lack of control, but so does a wildly bad foot positioning, which is what I’m trying to focus on.

 Over time the importance of foot positioning definitely decreases. What I’m concerned about are the riders who really struggle to get the hours down because the foot positioning they’ve already started to get accustomed to is simply preventing them from having a stable and a controlled ride. I’ve been able to recognize and instantly solve the issue many times, both locally and online.

One of the problems is that since everything about standing on an EUC is new to a beginner, they don’t always recognize even if they stand completely crooked. Something they’d immediately pick up while standing on solid ground.

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9 hours ago, mrelwood said:

most “expert riders“ ... never laid a strain of though into the matter, and since it’s all intuitive for them at that point, they don’t see that centering the shoe can’t be based in reason.

rcgldr - wobbly with ball and heel equal distant

You are the first person I’ve heard saying this, and without photos or a video I really don’t know what the issue is.

As for expert, from what I can see in videos, Chooch Tech has his feet centered (toe and heel equal distant), but he rides backwards at fairly high speed (there's a video of him commuting all the way home backwards), and most of the time, he uses power pads. I don't know if Kuji Rolls is considered an expert, but he states to have feet centered in his how to ride EUC video of an actual beginner. In the EUCO video, the (unnamed?) rider notes that he has his feet a bit forwards, but still recommends beginners start with their feet centered (toe to heel). He does a few tricks in that and other videos, but I don't know if he is considered an expert.

As for me being wobbly with my ball and heel equal distant, I have big toes, 3 inches from center of ball to front of toe. My foot size is 10.5 inches from back of heel to front of toe, and 7.5 inches from back of heel to center of ball. The V8F pedals are 9.5 inches long, so centered toe and heel is 0.5 inch past each end of pedal, and centered ball and heel is 1 inch inside each end of pedal. so that's a forward shift of 1.5 inches from my "normal" position. I tried this forward position for about 20 minutes on a bike trail that has turns and some mild inclines and declines, but it was wobbly most of the time, not uncontrollable, but just wobbly, similar to having about 4 or 5 more psi in the tire. I had to adjust my lean backwards a bit compared to my normal foot position for speed control, but that was expected. I was going slow, averaging about 10 mph, ranging from about 8 mph to 12 mph. The next day I switched back to my normal position on the same bike trail, same speeds, and the wobbles went away. This could simply be due to the fact that this is how I've been riding since I first started. Even with my feet that far back, I do feel a bit more pressure on the ball of each foot than the heel, but nothing like a sensation of my heels almost having no pressure even when leaning forwards to accelerate. Even with my tennis shoes, whatever stiffness there is in the soles is going to move the front pressure point on the pedals a bit forwards of the ball of each foot. A possibility is with my feet "back", my shins are angled forward more, providing a bit more yaw leverage between pedals and shin pads, but most of the time, I'm not squeezing the pads much.

Edited by rcgldr
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42 minutes ago, rcgldr said:

from back of heel to center of ball.

This is probably the key. 1.5” forward from a centered shoe is definitely way too much for the positioning I’m trying to express.

 To have the balls and heels at an equal distance from the pedal edge, I meant the center of the ball and center of the heel.

Since the point of the positioning is to have the weight bearing points of the foot at equal distances from the pedal edges, one has to measure the position of the heel and the ball the same way.

Edited by mrelwood
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2 hours ago, mrelwood said:

To have the balls and heels at an equal distance from the pedal edge, I meant the center of the ball and center of the heel.

Thanks for the clarification. For my feet, foot position with back of heel and front of toe equal distant is only about 1/4 inch back from center of heel and center of ball equal distant, not much difference, about the same as having 1 degree of tilt forward on the pedals (which shifts the pedals about 1/4 inch backwards).  I'm thinking that either method (centered shoes or centered ball and heel) is going to end up with about the same foot position (within 1/4 inch), assuming that shoe offset is near equal (unlike my tennis shoes with the big heels).

There's a confusing youtube video with two drawn diagrams on graph paper that in my opinion, is not correct, since the left diagram has the center of the heel well beyond the back of the pedal edge and the front of the toe even with the front of the pedal edge. Centered shoes is not going to cause this unless your wearing cowboy boots with 3 or 4 inch pointed extension beyond the toes. My centered tennis shoes with the big heels would have the opposite effect, shifting my feet forwards about 1/2 inch from "centered". I checked out my wife's tennis shoes, and if they were centered, her feet would also be "centered" (within 1/4 inch). 

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39 minutes ago, Paul A said:

Shouldn't positioning of the body mass be the critical/relevant issue? Maybe feet on pedals should be the end result of positioning the body relative to the wheel first, not vice versa.

If an EUC is not moving, then the center of mass needs to be directly over the axle. If the frame | pedal tilt is zero, then the center of mass is directly over the center of the pedals. If the frame | pedal tilt is forwards, the pedals are offset backwards, center of mass will be forwards of center of pedals, and the rider would have to compensate, and vice versa for frame | pedal tilt backwards.

For foot position, the center of mass is going to be somewhere between the center of the ball and center of the heel of the rider's feet. Foot position and pedal tilt will determine exactly where the center of mass will be located relative to ball and heel of a rider's feet. This is what I was getting at in an earlier post I made about rider preference. I haven't seen a recommendation for pedal tilt for a beginner, but since EUC's normally default to zero tilt, that is probably what a beginner should use, and with zero pedal tilt, a beginner should have center of ball and center of heel equal distant from pedal center (or from pedal edges assuming pedal is centered with zero tilt). For most shoes, centered shoes will end up close to this.

 

Edited by rcgldr
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7 hours ago, Paul A said:

Shouldn't positioning of the body mass be the critical/relevant issue? 

Maybe feet on pedals should be the end result of positioning the body relative to the wheel first, not vice versa.

Doesn’t work. Foot positioning is what determines the range of the CoG (or more correctly the combined force vector). Having the force vector average near to either end of the contact area, the posture is not stable, no matter where the actual CoG is.

 The pedals are the only contact point for the rider, and the longer the rider can make one’s support area, the more stable one will be while riding.

I hope I was able to explain this in English in a way that makes at least some sense.

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6 hours ago, Paul A said:

Center of mass of a person's body, is probably near the sternum or thereabouts, regardless of foot positioning.

For the vertical center, it's near the top of the hips. Take at look at aerial hoop act videos, with arms extended outwards, they are balanced when lying on their back just above the hips.

 

2 hours ago, Paul A said:

Center of mass in a body will not change. Center of gravity of a body can change.

Gravity always effectively acts on the center of mass, so essentially they are the same. 

EUC's will exert a forwards torque on the tire coexistent with a backwards torque on the frame in response to a forwards tilt input from the rider or when the EUC detects the center of mass is in front of the contact patch via the torque sensors in the motor (to regain balance). EUC's will exert a backwards torque on the tire coexistent with a forwards torque on the frame in response to a backwards tilt input from the rider or when the EUC detects the center of mass is behind the contact patch via the torque sensors in the motor (to regain balance). The balancing response has a small delay in order to allow a rider to lean forwards | backwards (otherwise it would nearly instantly prevent any attempt to lean). For a forwards lean, a rider initially presses with his heels, resulting in EUC tilt back, which decelerates in response, shifting the contact patch behind the center of mass, then accelerates for balance, while the rider presses with toes to limit or cancel the lean. For a backwards lean, a rider initially presses with his toes, resulting in EUC tilt forward, which accelerates in response, shifting the contact patch ahead of the center of mass, then decelerates for balance, while the rider presses with heels to limit or cancel the lean. Although foot position can limit the initial tilt (heel pressure to initiate forwards lean | acceleration, toe pressure to initiate backwards lean | deceleration), a rider can continue to generate tilt input to increase lean and acceleration | deceleration, regardless of foot position, limited only by the available torque from the motor. Using power pads allows a rider to exert more tilt input for faster response.

EUC's like InMotion will attempt to maintain speed as well as balance during a transition to incline or decline, automatically leaning the rider as needed so the torque on the frame due to maintaining constant speed on incline or decline is countered by having the center of mass ahead of | behind the contact patch, without rider input. The decline reaction will be similar to tilt back, and incline reaction similar to tilt forward. Being aware of this, I reduce speed on my V8F when approaching an incline or decline, to reduce the power once actually on the incline or decline.

Edited by rcgldr
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https://study.com/academy/lesson/understanding-the-center-of-mass-center-of-gravity.html

Center of mass and center of gravity are two terms that are often used interchangeably, but they're really not the same. The center of mass is the mean position of the mass in an object. Then there's the center of gravity, which is the point where gravity appears to act.

 

But for our purposes, essentially the same.

 

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45 minutes ago, Paul A said:

Center of mass and center of gravity are two terms that are often used interchangeably, but they're really not the same.But for our purposes, essentially the same.

This is getting off topic, but as noted in the video, they are the same if the gravitational field is uniform (a flat earth), and the gravitational field near the surface of the earth is close enough to uniform that this isn't an issue. It does become an issue for objects in orbit. An example of this is the moon, which isn't perfectly spherical in it's mass distribution, and is why mostly one side of the moon faces the earth while it orbits the earth (there is a small oscillation). Similarly, a very long rod in orbit will tend to be oriented "vertically" or oscillate about a "vertical" orientation, while in orbit, similar to the tidal forces on earth due to the pull of gravity from the orbiting moon. In two of the shuttle missions, attempts were made to deploy a very long tether "vertically" from the shuttle:

https://pwg.gsfc.nasa.gov/Education/wtether.html

This center of gravity versus center of mass issue only affects angular response. The linear response (instantaneous linear acceleration) will always act at the center of mass.

As you posted, for EUCs, which are on the surface of the earth, center of mass and center of gravity are essentially the same.

 

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On 8/23/2021 at 12:21 PM, Darren Crosbie-Rowlands said:

As a noob im still trying to figure out foot placement on the pads. Am i best sticking my feet as close to the wheel as possible or do i go for what feels most comfortable?

My answer to your question is whatever feels the most comfortable although in the beginning not much is going to feel very comfortable.  I opted for stability when I first started out.  Staggered stance/asymmetrical worked for me in the beginning.  (Thank you Mickey EVX).  When looking down at my feet while riding, the right foot was approx. 2" farther forward than my left.  It provided me with more stability and I used it for pretty much the first 600 miles.  After that my brain/body had learned enough and it wasn't required any longer.

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On 8/23/2021 at 12:21 PM, Darren Crosbie-Rowlands said:

As a noob im still trying to figure out foot placement on the pads. Am i best sticking my feet as close to the wheel as possible or do i go for what feels most comfortable?

Following the advice from Kuji Roll's video, I kept my feet close to the wheel, initially using hi-top hiking boots. In his video where he teaches a girl, she's wearing hi-top tennis shoes, and he put on ankle pads. I kept and still keep my feet centered and parallel as suggested by several how to ride EUC videos for beginners. As posted earlier, for most riders, front of toes and back of heels equal distant from pedal edges is about 1/4 inch <=> 6 mm back of having center of ball and center of heel equal distant, close enough or with toe + heel center, you could move feet forward about 1/4 inch <=> 6 mm forward if it you seem to do better that way.

I have an unusual duck foot issue where I stand duck footed (toes pointed outwards a bit) on the ground and have to stand duck footed on the EUC in order for my shins to bend directly forwards and not inwards. 

After a few days, I switched from the hi-top boots to lo-top tennis shoes. Later on, I was not squeezing the knee pads as much, a bit more relaxed, but even at 100 miles (160 km) on a V8F, I still keep my feet inwards on the pedals.

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