Foot Placement

[Darren Crosbie-Rowlands]

As a noob im still trying to figure out foot placement on the pads. Am i best sticking my feet as close to the wheel as possible or do i go for what feels most comfortable?

[The Brahan Seer]

I wouldn't stress too much about foot position as over time you will be able to place your feet in lots of different ways for different circumstances. So maybe go with whats most comfortable and see how that feels and  how it changes the response you get and then try different approaches and see how that changes response etc.  Maybe as a general rule (depending on feet size) Have your heels just touching the back of the pedal and your toes potentially overhanging the front. This will make going forwards appear easier. I personally don't subscribe to the dominant leg theory. Learn to mount/ dismount with each leg. Makes life easier in the long run. But everyone likes doing things in different ways. So what ever feels good for you.

[KPul]

I have only ridden about 600km (ie still learning/changing a lot) but have often found myself standing with left foot further ahead and right more back. Perhaps just 1-2cm difference. That way I can get semi-strong acceleration if I just move my hip forward with straight(ish) upper body and wright more on left side (rather than lean with head in front), while getting better braking on right side. Pure leaning at high speed and technical riding (without pads) kills my muscles.

I also sometimes experiment with a technique from some youtuber who was a proponent of standing on your toes of one foot. I havent really found the value in that (yet?), but sometimes its nice to "lock" a foot almost like a ballerina and then press on the pedal with that side's thigh. Doesnt feel optimal long term, but as a way to rest other muscles it can be ok.

[rcgldr]

As for how close to the wheel, with your feet closer to the wheel, there is a bit less pressure on your inside calf if you one foot glide to mount. On the other hand, it may limit how much you can tilt (lean) the EUC and|or there will be a bit more pressure on either calf for tighter turns. As long as you can squeeze the upper part of the wheel with your inner calf muscles, it won't make much difference.

As for forward | backward placement, it is rider preference. It's not going to make much difference in how the EUC responds to control inputs. An EUC doesn't have pressure sensors in the pedals, instead it has very sensitive tilt and other sensors. The EUC will accelerate when tilted forwards (pushing down with the toes tilts it forwards) or if it detects the center of mass is in front of the contact patch. EUC will decelerate when tilted backwards (pushing down with the heels will tilt it backwards) or if it detects the center of mass is behind the contact patch. There is a slight delay in the response to center of mass versus contact patch, which allows you to initiate a lean (without the delay, you could barely lean). In order to initiate a forwards lean, technically you first press down with your heels (even though you may not be aware of this), then switch to pressing down with your toes to limit or cancel the lean.  In order to initiate a backwards lean, you first press down with your toes, then switch to pressing down with your heels to limit or cancel the lean. This essentially duplicates how you would lean forwards or backwards on solid ground. I am a new rider with 48 miles on a V8F and I have my feet parallel and centered on the pedals. 

Also hinted at, but not explained, some riders will press down on the toe of one foot and the heel of the other foot or vice versa, allowing for some leg movement without affecting the EUC (since there is no change in tilt or lean when doing this), to relieve fatigue.

 

Edited August 27, 2021 by rcgldr

[rcgldr]

Follow up - I forgot to mention foot orientation. Generally you want your feet oriented so that your shins move straight forwards and not inwards or outwards when bending at the ankles and knees. In my case, I need to be duck footed (both feet pointed outwards) in order to get my shins to move straight forwards. I assume most riders would have their feed pointed straight ahead.

[mrelwood]

On 8/27/2021 at 11:08 PM, rcgldr said:

As for forward | backward placement, it is rider preference.

Not completely though. One of the most common beginner issues really is a wrong foot placement, with feet back enough to force a forward leaning posture, with most weight at the balls of one’s feet and tense legs causing wobbles. Shoe overlapping an equal amount at the front and the rear does this as well.

Heels and balls of feet at an equal distance from the pedal edge is the center point, and if both feet are at the same spot, there’s very little deviation possible without ruining any possibility of a relaxed posture.

 Offset foot positioning is of course a different matter, but generally the feet are both offset an equal length from the center point described above.

 Other than that, your post precisely described the method which the EUC is accelerated with.

 And a good point about the knees pointing forward when crouching! I guess most people have legs that point straight forward when crouching, since this hasn’t been talked much at all.

[rcgldr]

On 9/7/2021 at 5:06 AM, mrelwood said:

One of the most common beginner issues really is a wrong foot placement, with feet back enough to force a forward leaning posture, with most weight at the balls of one’s feet and tense legs causing wobbles. Heels and balls of feet at an equal distance from the pedal edge is the center point ...

When I've tried heels and balls of feet equal distance from pedal edge, I get wobbles. If I place my feet back an inch or so, I don't get wobbles. Rather than leaning forwards, I bend at the ankles more, lower legs angled forwards, upper legs a bit backwards, and upper body vertical. I'm not sure why this works for me, but my guess is that with the lower legs angled a bit more, I'm probably getting more yaw leverage when I squeeze the EUC with my inner legs. It could also be that I started out with my feet back (following Kuji Roll's advice for the shoes to be centered on the pedals, hanging off evenly at both ends of the pedals), and it's simply what I'm used to in terms of leg and body angle for speed control. 

Edited September 16, 2021 by rcgldr

[mrelwood]

This brings up an important point. We need a better method to locate the optimal foot positioning. The tips I’ve shared are not good enough, and might not work for somebody.

 Back to the drawing board it is!

[pico]

This is a very serious subject. I am still in the experimentation phase...

The more I ride, the less I know...

 

 

[mrelwood]

41 minutes ago, pico said:

This is a very serious subject. I am still in the experimentation phase...

The more I ride, the less I know...

 

 

Yeah yeah, we know…  You are right in waiting for yourself to find the correct foot position before taking up any actual speed! 

[RockyTop]

1 hour ago, pico said:

 

 

LOL ! The picture above shows @picopassing us at 42 MPH. He demonstrates proper foot position and posture for high speed travel.  JK

I have found that the leading edge of your shin should be in the center of the wheel front to back. 
 

 

 

[RockyTop]

On 8/23/2021 at 3:21 PM, Darren Crosbie-Rowlands said:

As a noob im still trying to figure out foot placement on the pads. Am i best sticking my feet as close to the wheel as possible or do i go for what feels most comfortable?

It depends on your abilities. I have more control of the wheel with my feet further out not close to the wheel. If you need the extra support to stop the wobbles keep them closer. Find a balance of comfort and control. Just don’t forget about being able to stop. 

[pico]

Let me be serious for a second(!)

I think we overemphasize the whole foot placement thing. What I found after so many years is that the shoulders position actually controls everything.

Start with the gaze and the shoulder naturally follows, then the CG and then the legs and then the wheel follows. Simple enough 

Well the fine blend of it all is what control what the wheel does...

The wheel does not really actually know (we do) where our feet are and what we are doing with them. Even when we put pressure on any part of the pedal we are actually forcing a CG move and the wheel follows.

We are all built differently and are muscularly very different. Most kids with their light weight naturally find what is right for them.

Edited September 16, 2021 by pico

[.....]

I prefer to have mine on TOP of the pedals. I tried in front and the wheel ran me over

 

[mrelwood]

36 minutes ago, pico said:

Let me be serious for a second(!)

Man you type a lot in a single second!

36 minutes ago, pico said:

I think we overemphasize the whole foot placement thing.

Look, we are talking about how to get complete beginners to find a foot positioning that works without wobbling, so they can continue learning the other crucial steps of riding an EUC. All of them will fine tune the position to their liking later on, be it non-parallel or whatever, that’s not at all what we’re talking about here.

I see the issue constantly, both locally as well as online. Standing too far back is slowing down the learning process of a huge amount of beginners. If it can be avoided with a simple tip that would spread in the community, I would see a huge amount of value in it. (And not the monetary kind!)

36 minutes ago, pico said:

The wheel does not really actually know (we do) where our feet are and what we are doing with them.

No, but it does know when (not if) your legs are tense or start to tremble because you have all your weight on your toes as you are trying to get a grasp on how to stay on this darned thing.

“Stand naturally” doesn’t work either, while the guy is standing on a freaking single wheel with a motor capable of going 30+ mph, for the first time in their life!

 

36 minutes ago, pico said:

Most kids with their light weight naturally find what is right for them.

Ah, to be kids again… Adults carry a huge amount of mental burden in their posture and the way they use their body.

[kolmog]

7 hours ago, mrelwood said:

Ah, to be kids again… Adults carry a huge amount of mental burden in their posture and the way they use their body.

If only Reichian armoring would protect one from falls

[rcgldr]

8 hours ago, mrelwood said:

Look, we are talking about how to get complete beginners to find a foot positioning that works without wobbling, so they can continue learning the other crucial steps of riding an EUC. All of them will fine tune the position to their liking later on, be it non-parallel or whatever, that’s not at all what we’re talking about here. ... Standing too far back is slowing down the learning process of a huge amount of beginners. ... because you have all your weight on your toes as you are trying to get a grasp on how to stay on this darned thing.

A persons feet would have to be quite a bit back to have that much of their weight on their toes. Based on recommendations I saw in "how to ride" videos, I have my shoes centered on the pedals, or toes and heels equal distance from pedal edges. As posted earlier, I don't lean forwards, and instead just angle the lower legs more forwards to shift the knees and everything above the knees a bit forwards. I don't have any sensation of a lot of weight on my toes. In my case, my quads get fatigued before my calf muscles do. I don't know how other riders muscles fatigue over time.

Edited September 16, 2021 by rcgldr

[mrelwood]

3 hours ago, rcgldr said:

A persons feet would have to be quite a bit back to have that much of their weight on their toes.

And many times they are! That’s why I’m still talking about this. In just the last week I’ve had three people thank me because they were indeed standing too far back, and after following my tip the wobbles are almost gone, and they’ve been able to practice things they were simply not able to do before.

Quote

 Based on recommendations I saw in "how to ride" videos, I have my shoes centered on the pedals, or toes and heels equal distance from pedal edges.

If you think about it, having the shoe centered doesn’t technically make much sense. Luckily you like physics!

1.) The shoes on the market have a huge variance in how much excess material there is either behind or in front of the shoe. Running shoes included. This makes shoe centering a much too vague of a guidance.

2.) If you stand on the floor without shoes, you can lift your toes up without moving your CoG at all. This is because toes exist to help with balance, they do not carry a meaningful amount of load. Your CoG is typically centered between your heels and the balls of your feet. Not between the heels and the tips of your toes.

The EUC only cares about the CoG, or should I say, the combined center point of the downward forces you apply to the pedals at any given time (let’s call it [Fc] ). If you center your feet on the pedal from the heel to the tip of your toe, you’ll have to move your CoG forward from the natural center point just to prevent the EUC from rolling backwards. This is what causes tension, exhaustion, and wobbles. The range of your front to back balance becomes narrower, and is offset from the center.

3.) The neutral riding position is to have the [Fc] slightly in front of the axle to compensate for air resistance at speed. This further increases the displacement between your riding [Fc] and your natural standing posture. 

Quote

As posted earlier, I don't lean forwards, and instead just angle the lower legs more forwards to shift the knees and everything above the knees a bit forwards.

That’s what I do too, as I find it the best for control. I need to start using a different word in place of “leaning”, because what I actually mean is exactly the above, ie. “shifting the CoG forward”.

Quote

In my case, my quads get fatigued before my calf muscles do.

Do your quads get exhausted when standing balanced on solid ground?

[rcgldr]

1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

If you think about it, having the shoe centered doesn’t technically make much sense. ... shoes huge variance ... CoG ... Do your quads get exhausted when standing balanced on solid ground?

The tennis shoes I wear extend 1/2 inch in front of the toes, 1 1/2 inch behind the heels, so I have to place shoes 1/2 inch back for toes and heels to be "centered".

When standing on solid ground, COG will be in front of the ankle pivot point, with the shins angled forwards slightly and the knees bent slightly, with the COG somewhere between heels and balls of the feet, but I'm not sure if it is exactly between the ball and heel of the feet. There might be some tendency to have COG a bit in front of the mid-point, since a person can lean forwards more than they can lean backwards without losing balance.

I'm not sure why there are recommendations to center your shoes on an EUC's pedals, due to the variation in shoes, but it's only shifting the COG on the feet about an inch or so ahead of the mid-point between the ball and heel of the feet. The lower legs are angled forward more, the upper legs are angled backwards less, so more tension in the calf muscles, but not much difference on the quads.

My quads get fatigued after about 30 minutes due to the slight squat I use on an EUC compared to standing on solid ground. If I try to squat like Chooch Tech, my quads are shot in about 10 minutes.

I can only speak from my own experience that I get wobbles if my foot placement is more forwards (ball and heel equal distance from pedal edges), and I don't get wobbles if my foot placement is back a bit (toe and heel equal distant from pedal edges). I don't know what the issue is. A possible explanation is having my lower legs angled forwards more allows me to exert more yaw torque on the EUC.

Edited September 17, 2021 by rcgldr

[mrelwood]

12 minutes ago, rcgldr said:

The tennis shoes I wear extend 1/2 inch in front of the toes, 1 1/2 inch behind the heels, so I have to place shoes 1/2 inch back for toes and heels to be "centered".

If you align these long tailed shoes of yours to be centered on the pedal, your CoG will already be 1/2” closer to the natural center position than with most shoes.

 And you are no longer the beginner I’m really talking about finding the recommendation for. You have already found a foot positioning and posture that suit you. You don’t need help with these things. The OP and numerous other people do.

12 minutes ago, rcgldr said:

There might be some tendency to have COG a bit in front of the mid-point, since a person can lean forwards more than they can lean backwards without losing balance.

I’m sure there is. And I think that is probably the main reason that standing too far back often feels intuitively more stable to a beginner, since they haven’t developed any trust in the EUC being able to take care of the front to back balance.

If you’ve ever seen a complete beginner stand on an EUC for the very first time, and then tell them to gently rock forward and back to get the wheel moving back and forth, you’ll know that when trying to go backwards the cognitive fight between the eagerness of wanting to learn and being scared shitless could be cut with a hacksaw! Like all the synapses and nerve endings in their body are yelling them “DON’T!!!”

 

12 minutes ago, rcgldr said:

I'm not sure why there are recommendations to center your shoes on an EUC's pedals, due to the variation in shoes, but it's only shifting the COG on the feet about an inch or so ahead of the mid-point between the ball and heel of the feet.

An inch is a huge distance to stand too far either back or front! Try it some time if you don’t believe me: Go ride for 5 miles standing a full inch backward, then another 5 miles standing a full inch forward from your normal position. Make sure to include at least a few medium to strong accelerations and brakings. But don’t hurt yourself!

 

[rcgldr]

2 hours ago, mrelwood said:

I think that is probably the main reason that standing too far back often feels intuitively more stable to a beginner, since they haven’t developed any trust in the EUC being able to take care of the front to back balance. ... rock back and forth

My main issue is conflicting input from experts. Most of what I assume are experts in the how to ride EUC videos, and the guy who helped me on my first session, state to center your feet on the pedals (this would be mean compensating for offset shoes), at least as a starting point for foot position, and noting that everyone is a little different and may adjust a little bit to what feels comfortable for them.  Some experts state to have your feet a bit forwards of centered. In one of the how to videos, the guy notes he has his feet a bit forwards (less than 1/2 inch forward from centered from what I can see), but recommends beginners start off with their feet centered.

The inch was relative to my 11 inch feet (less than 10%). I should have clarified that, and yes it was too much. An inch forwards from my normal position is wobbly for me. My normal position is probably +/- 1/4 inch from feet centered on pedals.

Edited September 17, 2021 by rcgldr

[div]

1 hour ago, rcgldr said:

My main issue is conflicting input from experts.

Thats because there are different approaches and schools of thought.
There seem to be two main directions: those who look for the optimal foot placement and shoes, and those who believe in variation.
Being of the later my main arguments are that moving around allows you to adapt to the changing situations, stretch your feet so you dont get cramps when riding far, as well as training different ride styles. After 20K+ km I don't care where my feet are, as long as I can get the job done.

In the beginning though it was very unsettling if they where too far in the front or back, so for a beginner my advice would be to go for what you feel comfortable with, and the times you step on "weirdly" use it as training either for accepting the stand, or moving your feet to where you prefer.

Edited September 17, 2021 by div

[rcgldr]

3 hours ago, mrelwood said:

standing too far back

Somehow I lost an edit. Could you clarify what you mean by too far back? Would you consider feet centered so that toes and heels are equal distance from pedal edges too far back, or would too far back be a bit back from centered?

[RockyTop]

5 hours ago, rcgldr said:

Somehow I lost an edit. Could you clarify what you mean by too far back? Would you consider feet centered so that toes and heels are equal distance from pedal edges too far back, or would too far back be a bit back from centered?

Yes, I would consider that too far back. I have size 13 shoes. About an 1.5 inches usually hang off the front while I am even with the back or actually have just a little pedal left. 

Here is my test. Stand on the floor with both feet side by side. Stand like you are ready to move quickly. How much pressure do you have on the balls of you feet? That is how much pressure you should have when standing on your wheel while not accelerating. 
 

If you ride a larger wheel without power pads I personally would have one foot further forward and one further back. 

Edited September 17, 2021 by RockyTop

[.....]

5 hours ago, rcgldr said:

Somehow I lost an edit. Could you clarify what you mean by too far back? Would you consider feet centered so that toes and heels are equal distance from pedal edges too far back, or would too far back be a bit back from centered?

I ride all ove my pedals. Typical moving stance is with balls of the feet at the front ends of pedals, toes hanging off. Standing just offset to the front, enables me to keep moving forwards with less effort. I ride forwards most of the time. Going down hills a tend to shuffle a little more to the back. The reasons are obvious.

If you stand off center to the front, it takes less lean and muscle to continue moving. Wobbles go away as you learn to trust and not fight the wheel. A looser grip and flowing ride style helps. I wear a small 10.5 shoe and weigh 130lbs. Moving around on the pedals of my 80lb sherman assist me to gain control more. I do the same thing on my mten and 18xl as well.

Edited September 17, 2021 by ShanesPlanet