SOFT mode and HOW to ride technique explained by CHRIS YIM

[Ronin Ryder]

 

Edited August 15, 2021 by Ronin Ryder

[mrelwood]

Very nicely done video, thanks!

 But… All I can’t think of is that it took a year for @houseofjob to be able to explain and show a carving technique in a 20 minute video that only applies to some wheels, and aims only to exert a more “optimized” way of momentarily applying pressure at the front of the pedals by a series of precisely times whole body movements. He describes it as a more “stable” technique for accelerating, yet we can see an obviously experienced creator of this technique himself to show the moves a little different on each flail, a few times even looking like he’d have to correct for slight imbalance. And I didn’t even see much acceleration taking place in the whole video in the first place.

All this instead of simply leaning one’s hips forward in a controlled and stable manner. For what exactly?

I have no issues with him deciding to ride that way, and feeling as if it would be a more “optimal” technique for riding or accelerating, but calling it more “stable” or more “effective” isn’t exactly correct. If one has no support point for accelerating by leaning, one sure doesn’t have it for pumping and flailing like that either.

 Sorry, too much questionable theorizing for my tastes.

[houseofjob]

1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

Very nicely done video, thanks!

 But… All I can’t think of is that it took a year for @houseofjob to be able to explain and show a carving technique in a 20 minute video that only applies to some wheels, and aims only to exert a more “optimized” way of momentarily applying pressure at the front of the pedals by a series of precisely times whole body movements. He describes it as a more “stable” technique for accelerating, yet we can see an obviously experienced creator of this technique himself to show the moves a little different on each flail, a few times even looking like he’d have to correct for slight imbalance. And I didn’t even see much acceleration taking place in the whole video in the first place.

All this instead of simply leaning one’s hips forward in a controlled and stable manner. For what exactly?

I have no issues with him deciding to ride that way, and feeling as if it would be a more “optimal” technique for riding or accelerating, but calling it more “stable” or more “effective” isn’t exactly correct. If one has no support point for accelerating by leaning, one sure doesn’t have it for pumping and flailing like that either.

 Sorry, too much questionable theorizing for my tastes.

LOL, this is exactly the kind of response I expect, seeing as you really can't catch it well on film, and why I don't expect this way to catch on. (BTW, this is why there is still no video from me on this, because my video would be way more verbose/thorough/detailed, and have 3D models because I know you can't see things well on camera and that there will be this kind of doubt). No knock on @Ronin Ryder, as props to him for the vid.

Also, @Ronin Ryder can tell you, but the footage you see here is what could actually keep me in frame; ie. I couldn't go full tilt acceleration as I wanted to, because I kept losing the camera, and there's no point in seeing a shrinking dot going far away for this kind of a video. I don't say this to brag, but it's the truth: everyone forgets the camera man has to be just as fast, if not faster, to catch a speeding rider in frame, all while holding a camera, which you won't know how difficult that is until you've tried it. @chulander in NYC who has basically has the foundations of my riding now, we had the same slight issue in the beginning shooting some demo footage years back, where I again kept losing the camera.

And I stand by my way being more stable, especially compared to the pad hugging Michael Jackson lean where all your lean is compromised going forward, zero opposing leverage support, which I never do. Try hitting an unexpected bump going max acceleration via that pad way, you're way more compromised with all the weight forward, whereas all my falls in the past I've been able to catch and brace with my arms, because my body/head is not compromised all forward, no back heel leverage. 

And if you perceive it as flailing, then so be it, you don't understand the why then. Interestingly, every medium-to-advanced skiing EUC rider never makes any of these debates, because they are well aware of the truth that...: I didn't create any of this!, it's just hacked and modified skiing technique, you dig the back-reaching downhill ski inner edge into the snow for leverage, and you can only open up that back hip/leg reach when the arm/pole goes back behind you,... it's like if you described a runners arms as "flailing" because they actually moved in time with the legs/feet/hips, expecting them to run without zero arm movement/swing, which doesn't make any sense.

If I ever make it out to Finland ever again, perhaps seeing might be believing, as I know well of your skepticism, which I totally understand 😉

 

Edited August 17, 2021 by houseofjob

[mrelwood]

18 minutes ago, houseofjob said:

And if you perceive it as flailing, then so be it, you don't understand the why then.

I do understand the need to balance for bodily movements with arm positioning and accelerations. Which is happening in your technique as well, I do get that part.

Even if the technique would help you accelerate faster, which I can’t say that doesn’t happen, only that I remain doubtful, I just don’t grasp how and why would it be worth it. When is it necessary for you to perform a maximum possible acceleration on an EUC?

I’ve had zero trouble ever accelerating as fast as I want with just positioning my body weight. Going on 4.5 years and more than 20000 miles. And I have only met a few (much lighter) riders that have been able to accelerate faster than me.

 Maybe the rider’s weight is the key though. I have read you talk about the Monster a lot in relation to this technique. A light person and a Monster would definitely require all kinds of additional means and prayers to make it move. 230lbs and an 18” tire, not so much.

 If you ever do actually come to Finland, I’d love to gather up a group ride to greet you! Each with our own riding techniques of different levels of zombie.  

 

Ps. I stand behind calling you the creator of this technique. “Hacking and modifying” is more inventing than generally happens nowadays anyways. 

[houseofjob]

16 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

Even if the technique would help you accelerate faster, which I can’t say that doesn’t happen, only that I remain doubtful, I just don’t grasp how and why would it be worth it. When is it necessary for you to perform a maximum possible acceleration on an EUC?

I was explaining to Ronin also on this, I don't do this constantly, I do it when the situation calls for it and I need it, I think he was surprised I wasn't doing it non-stop. These situations are when I need a burst to overtake, say, a car in traffic at speed, or when I need a kick off the starting line when a traffic light turns green.

 

16 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

I’ve had zero trouble ever accelerating as fast as I want with just positioning my body weight. Going on 4.5 years and more than 20000 miles. And I have only met a few (much lighter) riders that have been able to accelerate faster than me.

Oh, I've never pushed my way of riding on anyone. Only times I've chimed in with it, is when riders present issues, like wobbles, inability to accelerate well, etc., or if they have questions regarding riding mechanics. I personally hate forcing things / opinions on other people, in general, you will never see me do this.

 

16 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

Maybe the rider’s weight is the key though. I have read you talk about the Monster a lot in relation to this technique. A light person and a Monster would definitely require all kinds of additional means and prayers to make it move. 230lbs and an 18” tire, not so much.

Rider weight, yes is key, but more like a lighter rider tends to not have as much muscle as a heavier rider, and if the riding mechanics dictate grabbing on to the wheel for leverage, then that is very much muscle, whereas I prefer to position the wheel in a manner where my pure bodyweight is the force, not muscle.

 

16 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

 

 If you ever do actually come to Finland, I’d love to gather up a group ride to greet you! Each with our own riding techniques of different levels of zombie.  

LOL, last and only time I've been to Finland was when I was little, back in the 90's ha! But it was a very cool trip, touring all of Scandinavia, I'm sure even better on a wheel! Would love that chance if I'm ever in your area, thanks for the offer! 

 

16 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

Ps. I stand behind calling you the creator of this technique. “Hacking and modifying” is more inventing than generally happens nowadays anyways. 

Again, I really can't take credit for it, it just came out from me toying with things, then subconsciously starting to implement my decades of ski learning. I never was really an enthusiastic skiier, more something my father dragged me into from childhood because he went to college in Switzerland, and thus is a big ski fanatic, but now that it actually translated to something I love in EUC, I've grown to appreciate that ski background much more because of.

 

Edited August 17, 2021 by houseofjob

[.....]

Interesting. I felt this phenom mostly when coming out of pedal dipping turns. Definitely useful for some form of leverage. Altho I could see how using this soft tilt to an advantage, I also see the disadvantage of it. In the end, I choose to ride harder modes as MY leverage comes from ShanesPads when needed. Using leverage while minimizing pedal dip was a win/win for me. On my wheels w/o Pads, I tend to ride a bit softer mode, but I also don't try and wring max performance from them. I quite like being used to straight line excell, as I'm sure its less disruptive to the already confused bystanders. Especially when it means having to flail and use an entire lane. However, when I'm riding without anyone near, may as well swerve and change speeds irradically, its fun. I've only ridden around a couple riders, but even at my puny 130lbs, its been commented that I take off like a rocket. Not bragging, it just illustrates that you take two men and put them on the same EXACT wheel with same EXACT setup, and even the skinny fuc*er has a possibility of tossing the wheel about with more authority. Theres definitely more technique involved than mere physical prowess or weight.

Edited August 17, 2021 by ShanesPlanet

[Tawpie]

I was intrigued, not because I really need to accelerate 'more', but because the stability argument makes logical sense to me and it's an interesting style. I'm looking for a way to be more stable while getting more power from the wheel because I dearly love trails and going up steep rocky loose soil paths while leaning forward on the wheel is far from stable and doesn't provide enough power (I have to run around in the shower to get wet so physique is not on my side).

I'm guessing that the 'kind' of soft mode on my 16x isn't the same? I have always avoided clenching the wheel so I figured heel down to tip the wheel would be simple and it is, but doing it under control will take some time... first tries the wheel goes clonk against my leg and that's obviously not what we're looking for. But I don't get any sensation of a swing to the pedals that would cause the front of the opposite pedal to raise up. Perhaps this is KS soft mode, perhaps it's because I'm not doing the heel down with anything close to finesse, I'll start by blaming lack of finesse (timing).

So when the wheel is tipped to my heel-down side, I press with the ball of my foot on the other side (so I keep going straight!) and yes, there is definite acceleration without getting out over the front of the wheel. Dropping the hip (oy, that feels strange) while pressing hard with the other leg (on ball of foot) is really difficult to coordinate and creates a twisting motion that I'll need to get used to. First few tries so far are just strange feeling and I think my body is trying to figure out how to compensate to keep balance where it usually is. I haven't tried moving my arm back to let the hip drop more because right now it just feels too odd.

Much more practice is in order, it'll be fun because it already feels a little like 'power carving'—the aggressive carve while carrying speed and accelerating out of the turn. More like skiing... 

Who knows, maybe the technique will transfer from pavement to dirt. Maybe it won't (swerving around on single track… not advised). Either way, it gets the upper body and core moving and that has to be a good thing!

Edited August 17, 2021 by Tawpie

[Darrell Wesh]

2 hours ago, houseofjob said:

when I need a kick off the starting line when a traffic light turns green

That technique doesn’t concern itself with starting though. Its mid race/reacceleration technique only. 

 

1 hour ago, Tawpie said:

I'm looking for a way to be more stable while getting more power from the wheel because I dearly love trails and going up steep rocky loose soil paths while leaning forward on the wheel is far from stable and doesn't provide enough power

The only way such a technique could help you up a hill is simply because you’re cutting at an angle and making the slope less steep. It’s common to naturally carve left and right when going up a hill slowly instead of trying to force it straight up. 

Edited August 17, 2021 by Darrell Wesh

[Darrell Wesh]

I don’t believe the technique is actually faster then cranking on powerpads (which I don’t do and I hate). But if I need to accelerate quickly on my Sherman I do find myself carving in much the same way. It seems to be that I actually agree with your stability point. And that is why I naturally accelerate without a straight on lean. I don’t agree that it’s faster though. 

Edited August 17, 2021 by Darrell Wesh

[.....]

7 minutes ago, Darrell Wesh said:

I don’t believe the technique is actually faster then cranking on powerpads (which I don’t do and I hate). But if I need to accelerate quickly on my Sherman I do find myself carving in much the same way. It seems to be that I actually agree with your stability point. And that is why I naturally accelerate without a straight on lean. I don’t agree that it’s faster though. 

Oh man are you missing out. You dont need twist and try so hard if you have power pads. When it comes to emergency stopping with pads, there's absolutely no comparison.

[Darrell Wesh]

8 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said:

Oh man are you missing out. You dont need twist and try so hard if you have power pads. When it comes to emergency stopping with pads, there's absolutely no comparison.

Lol you are very wrong. Carving hard left and right like @houseofjobrecommends is far faster at putting the brakes on then cranking back on powerpads.
 

This is the reason why I can’t believe this same technique is better at ACCELERATING, because the side to side movement wastes time and lengthens the journey straight which is a tremendous help for braking 

[bracky72]

When you go hard into a turn centrifugal force presses you outward. Angular momentum and all. So you can press the front of the pedals counter to this force harder then just leaning your body weight. Do it for a few strides to get the wheel moving fast then straighten. It really works and feels just great. But I also like superman leaning.

[Unventor]

@houseofjob great to see you on video again. 

I am not sure if I can do this. But I do understand that some things do not show on video while other things looks very odd on video too. 

This is my best way to explain why:

The sensation of forces your are balancing and using is very hard to see. But the rider can feel if the force is applied on toes or flat or on heels. On video you see postures but no forces are picked up.  So to show what is going on you can't have same posture which is part of how some rider styles works good or not. 

As and example is my asymmetric foot stand for gas's and brake foot. You will see the feel missalignment but how I balance forces between each foot is not listed and you can see on foot the brake is near the shell rear on the pedals while gas's foot is wide and on the front. 

And I also think if you are to brake hard doing so in S curve motions helps combat wobbles and makes the wheels travel distance long while  forward distance travel in road length is shorter.

I used to ride pad free. Doing so means you need to work with body more to ride. Using pads it is easier to apply force but it puts you at higher risk for wobbles as the wheel is not changing direction as easy and changes is what combat wobbles in the first place. 

Now in the end each rider find their style that works for them. Carving is one way that can be done differently. But I rarely ride carving in traffic as this is so different to many other people in traffic and this means they have a hard time understanding why and how it works.This has the following on effect that they cannot predict what I am doing. 

I like the fact that you said you change style depending on surroundings. That is key to be a great rider imo. 

I would love to be entertained and maybe learn a few things if you should make such a video with graphs and vectors are all the funny things you put in previous videos and reviews. I do not promise I will learn. But entertained I can be for sure. 

[Paul A]

Riding style of carving/slaloming looks nice.

Explanation was a bit convoluted.

Tour de France and Moto GP riders going around a bend seem to try to keep the bicycle/motorbike as vertical as possible for traction.  The rider comes out of the saddle, and the bicycle/motorbike is held as vertically as possible.  The introductions of Wrong Way's videos show this dramatically.

Not sure wheel responds to pressure on the pedals per se, but rather in movements of the combined centers of gravity of the body and wheel.

Zig zagging does look more artistic, aesthetically pleasing than straight line movement.

Nice style, great video.

 

Edited August 17, 2021 by Paul A
added picture

[.....]

4 hours ago, Darrell Wesh said:

Lol you are very wrong. Carving hard left and right like @houseofjobrecommends is far faster at putting the brakes on then cranking back on powerpads.
 

This is the reason why I can’t believe this same technique is better at ACCELERATING, because the side to side movement wastes time and lengthens the journey straight which is a tremendous help for braking 

 I'm fine with being laughed at and told I'm wrong. I still maintain that braking with pads is much more effective and easier.

Edited August 17, 2021 by ShanesPlanet

[rcgldr]

This same video came up in another forum. There is a comment from samlex on that video that explains how electric unicycles work. One issue pointed out by samlex is you have to push on your heels, which are behind your center of mass, in order to lean forwards (versus the video claiming pushing with toes leans you forward, then the video goes on to show one foot behind the other and correctly states push with the back foot (behind center of mass) to lean forward).

As for max acceleration, I've seen a few videos of EUC drag races, and no one is carving, just leaning very far forwards. The arm flailing and body twisting might be useful in some situations, (like arm flailing | yaw steering at very low speed), but I don't see the need for it for general riding.

As a counter-example, the rider in this video is almost motionless (no arm flailing, no body twisting), just leaning and tilt steering.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hWMwK3Cfs0

Essentially the same idea with this rider on a Veteran Sherman (his top speed close to 30 mph), also almost motionless (no arm flailing, no body twisting), other than leaning and tilt steering. Link is set to skip ahead to 3:52 in the video (prior to that, it is just a very long straight). After that, skip ahead to about 11 minutes into the video to skip past what is mostly a long straight section and a pause for comments.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWX41wrE6eE&t=232s

 

Edited August 17, 2021 by rcgldr
add second example

[Ronin Ryder]

Hi all,

What an interesting topic! I knew this would trigger discussion with interesting like minded people to discuss about riding technique, instead of the usual complains about nonsense.

The purpose of this video was to: Explain SOFT mode, as its often misunderstood, as i did, but also to gather explanations about @houseofjobriding technique and show riders other ways to ride. I'm not saying its the best or even matches every rider. However i find it interesting to try new ways to ride, and personally, though i don't handle that technique well at all (thank you stiff soft mode), it renews my interest to ride wheels and varies the fun.

Would like to add some points:

@houseofjob is riding really slowly in this video. His acceleration with that technique is quick. I asked him to go slower else i'd lose him on camera (which happened at first). It was the first time i was filming someone other than myself and its not an easy task, though i could keep up a bit at the end but most of the shooting was already done. You can catch bits of his acceleration patterns in the parts where he's riding near a fence under a bridge. I originally learned about his riding technique in evx videos, and i thought he was riding like this all the time, which wasn't the case, hence why i edited the riding extracts in a way where he's not riding like that all the time. I also asked him to go slower because i wanted to show the motion as clearly as possible and focus on the motion with video and extensive explanations.

I tried to show as much as possible on camera, and also tried to get @houseofjob explain several times the same concepts, in different ways, for example using the hands on the pedals. Originally this technique was just explained by posts on forums or on telegram chats. The video isn't perfect but i think it shows the big principles and helps to understand/visualize better the concept, and trigger interest or at least curiosity more than pure texts.

That technique does require a good soft mode, hence why some wheels are better than others: Sherman with 53 or older firmware, exn with latest update, monster pro with latest boards, etc.. I dont know how is the soft mode for each wheels, but i invite everyone who wants to give it a try to test with their own wheels.

 

Thanks

Edited August 17, 2021 by Ronin Ryder

[houseofjob]

19 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said:

Interesting. I felt this phenom mostly when coming out of pedal dipping turns. 

Yes, this is indeed the phenomenon.

 

19 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said:

In the end, I choose to ride harder modes as MY leverage comes from ShanesPads when needed. Using leverage while minimizing pedal dip was a win/win for me.

I'm not a huge fan of this supposed leverage, because it's in the same direction as your lean, hence way less chance to recover on an unseen divot, but also not saying you shouldn't use pads either, to each their own, ride how you like.

 

18 hours ago, Darrell Wesh said:

I don’t believe the technique is actually faster then cranking on powerpads (which I don’t do and I hate). But if I need to accelerate quickly on my Sherman I do find myself carving in much the same way. It seems to be that I actually agree with your stability point. And that is why I naturally accelerate without a straight on lean. I don’t agree that it’s faster though. 

LOL, yes I well know of your point of view on this Darrell, and I respect it, I always enjoy your input, no matter how much I may disagree on certain points.

Perhaps your way of pads could be faster straightline (no way to tell without setting up a proper controlled environment, and almost no one rides exactly the way I do from seeing riders around me), ..... but on the flip, you make it sound like my way is turtle slow, which I assure you, it's not, I keep up with the fastest of NYC riders just fine, so long as their not doing the dumb risky stuff like jumping blind corners, etc (grandpa risk profile here LOL). 

So, if your popwerpad way is a smidge faster straightline, but you have to compromise your whole balance profile all going forward, no juxtaposed counterbalance weight, then I much rather prefer my way of accel IMHO. (BTW, nothing is touching seated accel to any of this, full weight concentration on the nose of the wheel shell, even my soft mode standing riding, so....)

What I absolutely don't agree on the pad thing is, if you introduce many turns, ala NYC traffic runs, that's an easy win for my way, the pads compromise any kind of counter steer due to lack of swivel/angular maneuverability independent to the body lean angle. Now THat comparison, I'm way more confident in, as I've put this to the test plenty of times in the city, which @chulander can back me up, as he's used and felt it as well, since the accel comes from the "carve" (which I will repeat from past posts, does not always have to be a real carve, depending on the execution, angle-ing).

But more than all the speed talk, my main gripe on the pads is, I see many new riders injuring themselves thinking the only way to get big accel is copying their favorite YouTuber who goes face-to-floor with pads, and results in a hospital visit, when this is 100% not the only way to ride an EUC effectively & safely. We've had EUCs more than a half decade before the "pad boom", riding just fine. Pads, while yes, can be useful if you want to use them, IMHO they neuter you from learning the nuances of how to ride EUC fully, not to mention, if you're reliant on pads, then you Have to have them to ride, you can't just jump on any old wheel handed to you, which is not a true "skilled" rider IMHO. (not talking about you Darrell on this part, I know you ride well)

 

18 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said:

Oh man are you missing out. You dont need twist and try so hard if you have power pads. When it comes to emergency stopping with pads, there's absolutely no comparison.

9 hours ago, Darrell Wesh said:

Lol you are very wrong. Carving hard left and right like @houseofjobrecommends is far faster at putting the brakes on then cranking back on powerpads.

The Brake argument is a bit different IMHO. I brake in an S using the reverse way I accelerate, but really more to dramatically lengthen the braking distance in a tight space (ala skiing, boarding etc.), each turn dissipates speed in combination with the back lean brake force, but also, if you lean the wheel back and S (wheel is tilting down opposite to the forward direction), your momentum is going forward, but the wheel, and more importantly, tire is perpendicular to the forward direction, so it's using more of the rubber resistance against the pavement for braking, in combination with the wheel's braking, which is waaaaay more effective than the so-called straight-line "emergency brake" even with pads, as hub BLDC motors are inherently not as good at switching into hard braking force as compared to a disc braking; much better to combine the friction of the tire rubber plus the wheel's braking for a greater overall brake force that's not dependent solely on the motor.

But I will agree with @ShanesPlanet on the point that yes, pad + straightline brake is easier than all my convoluted riding ways. Again, this is why I don't think any of what I am advocating will ever catch on, too hard, too much time investment.

 

9 hours ago, Darrell Wesh said:

This is the reason why I can’t believe this same technique is better at ACCELERATING, because the side to side movement wastes time and lengthens the journey straight which is a tremendous help for braking 

LOL, yes I know your argument here as well. I assure you, once accelerating at speed, from the wheels point of view, it's not really moving side to side, as much as my body mechanics is going side to side, and body maneuver at speed when I'm really trying to gun it, it all tightens up more. What I'm saying is, there's levels to it, and it's all dependent on the situational needs at hand. I can also just pin one lean side too, very similar to the powerpad lean-and-hold idea, except no need for pad.

 

8 hours ago, bracky72 said:

When you go hard into a turn centrifugal force presses you outward. Angular momentum and all. So you can press the front of the pedals counter to this force harder then just leaning your body weight. Do it for a few strides to get the wheel moving fast then straighten. It really works and feels just great. But I also like superman leaning.

Yes, this is the reason for countersteer, which I do often.

I juke my wheel the opposite way of the turn, that side heels down, which provides the leverage for me to cut harder into the actual direction of the turn when that heel turns into the front pedal heel up accelerator, the other inner turn foot heeling down and straight-legged. I pull back on the brake lean a little in the preliminary opposite-the-turn juke, so I can lean on the accel faster when I cut the other way, ala all the car racing maneuvers I learned from my former Gran Turismo video game-ing days , break up the turn into segments.

 

8 hours ago, Unventor said:

@houseofjob great to see you on video again. 

Thanks!

 

8 hours ago, Unventor said:

I am not sure if I can do this. But I do understand that some things do not show on video while other things looks very odd on video too. 

This is my best way to explain why:

The sensation of forces your are balancing and using is very hard to see. But the rider can feel if the force is applied on toes or flat or on heels. On video you see postures but no forces are picked up.  So to show what is going on you can't have same posture which is part of how some rider styles works good or not. 

As and example is my asymmetric foot stand for gas's and brake foot. You will see the feel missalignment but how I balance forces between each foot is not listed and you can see on foot the brake is near the shell rear on the pedals while gas's foot is wide and on the front. 

And I also think if you are to brake hard doing so in S curve motions helps combat wobbles and makes the wheels travel distance long while  forward distance travel in road length is shorter.

Yes, I again never intend to say everyone must ride my way, but offering the alternative is better than not I think (thanks @Ronin Ryder for doing the preliminaries here on that)

In general, from my experience as an amateur athlete of sorts in all the sports I've played over the years, it always looks on video like ~50-70% less than it actually feels like you're doing/experiencing in your body, so EUC is no different I think.

 

8 hours ago, Unventor said:

I used to ride pad free. Doing so means you need to work with body more to ride. Using pads it is easier to apply force but it puts you at higher risk for wobbles as the wheel is not changing direction as easy and changes is what combat wobbles in the first place. 

Yes, I agree on all these points.

 

8 hours ago, Unventor said:

Now in the end each rider find their style that works for them. Carving is one way that can be done differently. But I rarely ride carving in traffic as this is so different to many other people in traffic and this means they have a hard time understanding why and how it works.This has the following on effect that they cannot predict what I am doing. 

Yes, if I wasn't in a metropolitan city that necessitates carving, I'm not sure I would have ever gone down this path with soft mode this method of riding. Everyone is a product of their environments I think.

 

8 hours ago, Unventor said:

I like the fact that you said you change style depending on surroundings. That is key to be a great rider imo. 

LOL thanks, I try, but in the end, I'm really just a rider 6 years in trying to improve, who overthinks things constantly, and am always aiming to eliminate inefficiencies in my riding, which I definitely have some more parts I need to / want to work on.

 

8 hours ago, Unventor said:

I would love to be entertained and maybe learn a few things if you should make such a video with graphs and vectors are all the funny things you put in previous videos and reviews. I do not promise I will learn. But entertained I can be for sure. 

Ha! Yes, boring technical dribble is..... boring technical dribble, so if/when (God I've been saying this for years now smh) I do get back to videos, you better believe I will aim to entertain on top of educate, if that is possible. Thank you for the kind words as always

 

Edited August 18, 2021 by houseofjob

[Planemo]

5 hours ago, houseofjob said:

We've had EUCs more than a half decade before the "pad boom", riding just fine.

Ain't that the truth. Some very skilled riders throwing their wheels around pre-pad.

I can't help thinking that the pad boom will reduce riders skill on average and lead to more crashes as riders push the limits at speed due to the ease which most pads allow riders to torque the wheel. I have succumbed to the 'pad fad' myself but only with ShanesPads which are minimal and don't touch my legs unless I actually need them. So unless emergency (or lazy) braking, or if I need to get up a steep hill. Other than that I don't know they are there, nor do I want them to be.

'Tight' pads also reduce flexibility in the legs/knees in general which again leads to laziness in keeping the wheel 'detached' from anything other than the feet. This will present problems with unseen potholes/bumps and again I fear that we will see more riders coming off due to lack of bump absorption that pads tend to lend themselves to.

None of the above applies to the hardcore off-roaders/jumpers of course where pads can indeed help or in fact are imperative 

 

[mrelwood]

 

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if the riding mechanics dictate grabbing on to the wheel for leverage, then that is very much muscle, whereas I prefer to position the wheel in a manner where my pure bodyweight is the force, not muscle.

Grabbing the wheel would be done by muscle, yes, but it doesn’t offer any acceleration or braking in itself. All the acceleration or braking force would still come from the force the rider is able to tilt the wheel forward/backward. You can’t use muscle for that, since any part you can touch is of the same solid structure.

As an example, no matter how hard you tense your muscles and push the ground downwards, the force you are able to create is always the same as being completely relaxed.

 

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the pads compromise any kind of counter steer due to lack of swivel/angular maneuverability independent to the body lean angle.

I have never tried or seen pads that would lock the feet in the way you describe. The pads I use only come in the way of my manoeuverability once my shins reach an angle I would never use otherwise.

 

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he's used and felt it as well

 

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my main gripe on the pads is, I see many new riders injuring themselves thinking the only way to get big accel is copying their favorite YouTuber who goes face-to-floor with pads, and results in a hospital visit

I’m not sure how the hospital visit is the pads’ fault though. The thought of a new rider trying to copy this technique you use (I’ll still say “invented” ) instead in order to be able to accelerate very fast, doesn’t paint a very good picture. An inexperienced rider is an inexperienced rider, and one trying to accelerate fast is a crash waiting to happen, pads or not.

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We've had EUCs more than a half decade before the "pad boom", riding just fine.

What changed though is that the available motor power increased about tenfold, and riding speed got tripled. It’s not a surprise that in order to utilize that much of extra power requires a different technique or accessories.

 

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Ha! Yes, boring technical dribble is..... boring technical dribble, so if/when (God I've been saying this for years now smh) I do get back to videos, you better believe I will aim to entertain on top of educate, if that is possible.

The boring technical dribble is always the one that interests me the most though. Efficacy of entertainment is dependent on so many things, and everybody perceives things differently. Boring technical dribble is constant, no matter how a person feels at the moment. Some days I may feel like I’m riding faster than ever, but the window to the boring technical dribble the riding app always shows how fast I was actually going.

[Planemo]

24 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

What changed though is that the available motor power increased about tenfold, and riding speed got tripled. It’s not a surprise that in order to utilize that much of extra power requires a different technique or accessories.

I do agree with this, and does somewhat go against my 'pads can introduce an overlean situation' as wheels are far stronger now like you say. But all thats really happened is that the goalposts have moved. As you know, overleans are still very possible so all thats really changed is that an overlean scenario now just happens at a higher speed than it may have done years ago without pads.

Again, as you say, an inexperienced rider can overlean whatever wheel they are riding, old/new/with/without pads, but I can't help feeling that lean pads allow the rider to access an overlean far easier. More importantly, at speeds far higher than 5 years ago.

As you may have guessed, seeing new riders fitting huge lean pads to Shermans/RS19 HS etc scares me somewhat.

[mrelwood]

2 hours ago, Planemo said:

As you may have guessed, seeing new riders fitting huge lean pads to Shermans/RS19 HS etc scares me somewhat.

Ain’t that the truth. One of the local EUC food delivery guys crashed a few weeks ago. His riding in group rides was totally hooliganish, which made me want to skip the group rides he was taking part. Anyway, being so focused with his work, he either didn’t realize that his Nikola battery was getting low, and as speed blindness started to emerge, he simply drove the depleted Nikola past the motor’s top speed, crashing at 60km/h (37mph).

 He did wear a motorcycle helmet, but not any other gear. He did get off easily though, as he was back to work after just one week.

 Based on his Sherman, I’m sure his Nikola is extensively padded as well. But a new rider he definitely is not.

 So just another crash that would’ve been prevented with a top speed tilt-back. Or riding a non-GW based wheel, since only they allow the rider to remove the tilt-back completely.

[Planemo]

3 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

So just another crash that would’ve been prevented with a top speed tilt-back.

Not quite fair to say that tiltback is the only prevention. The GW 80% alarm (which as you know cant be turned off) is perfectly suitable. If he didn't hear them (or rode through them) thats his own fault.

[mrelwood]

3 hours ago, Planemo said:

Not quite fair to say that tiltback is the only prevention. The GW 80% alarm (which as you know cant be turned off) is perfectly suitable. If he didn't hear them (or rode through them) thats his own fault.

If he doesn’t hear an audible alarm due to wind and traffic, that’s his own fault and as a punishment deserves to be tossed to the ground at 60km/h? Man, that’s pretty rough. 

[Planemo]

3 hours ago, mrelwood said:

If he doesn’t hear an audible alarm due to wind and traffic, that’s his own fault and as a punishment deserves to be tossed to the ground at 60km/h? Man, that’s pretty rough. 

You suggest he was far from a new rider and also appears to know the Nik, that his riding was so hooliganish that you didnt want to ride with him, he had no idea of the SOC of his battery and may well have had 'speed blindness'. Sorry bud we will have to agree to disagree on this one. No sympathy from me I'm afraid, and I certainly wouldn't expect any myself in the same circumstances.

This clearly isnt a brand new rider having just fitted huge lean pads to their Sherman/Monster which was the point of my original concern.