KingSong 18L & 18XL

[Funky]

4 hours ago, mrelwood said:

 

Last I heard the Hextechs sold for around $250 without any brackets…

Yes, they changed to the 2200W motor something like two years ago. They did make the white inner shell with the old 2000W motor for a short while, but I don’t know when the 2nd white inner shell came to be.

 

Even the “quick” chargers for EUCs are still “slow” chargers for the individual cells. Charging the 18XL at 1.8A is no better for the batteries than charging at 5A.

First, I must applaud for the homework you have done, and the amount of information you’ve been able to gather! You already know more about EUCs than many long time riders!

The problem with the 80% charging recommendation is in perspective. @yoos already laid out the math: Yes, in theory you could have 10% more riding range after 40 000km. But if you only charge to 80% and don’t balance charge at all, your battery packs could be unrideable and non-repairable already at 2000km, like one rider had on his 18XL.

 I’ve been lurking around the forum “quite”  actively for the past 3 years. I’ve heard of only one single EUC that has ever reached 30 000 km. On the other hand, there are DOZENS and DOZENS of threads titled “…won’t charge above xx%”, most of them having many other riders as well saying “me too”. Almost all of those issues are because of insufficient balancing. 

I balance charged my 16S once a week, about every 7th charge. The first pack was unusable due to insufficient balancing after 4000km, the second pack at 8000km.

 Due to this, I balance charged my MSX every single time (4A charging). I sold the wheel after 14000km with no issues or noticeable degradation in the batteries.

However, if you won’t be riding for more than a week or so, it’s best to store the packs at 40-60%.

Of course, if you only ride for less than 20km every day, you don’t necessarily need to charge every day. But when you do charge, I would absolutely recommend to leave the charger connected for at least 30 minutes after the charger turns green, every single time you charge. Balance charging every day would balance the cells more effectively though, as the balancing current is very small, and it can’t save a pack that is badly out of balance.

 

Won’t fit, wouldn’t even rotate. But the 2.5” tire on the 18XL is just fine for practically all riding situations. There’s nothing the wheel wouldn’t be able to do because of the narrower tire.

 

Yeah you might be on something.. Firstly thanks! for that long post

If i can ride 40.000Km for charging 100% everytime, i would be so happy. Whit that range i would have the battery for 6+ years easy.

And yes inbalancing cells might make one or two completely empty, meaning it might die.. And thats why the battery also dies faster.. Will charge every second or third day then.. When i will be under 60% i will start charging them to 100%.

And leaving about 30 mins after green. So every cell gets to 100% right?

That will work better?

Dosen't that also hurt the battery, if i leave them charging for longer time after green, fully charged?

Also can i charge like this>> Charge for 1 hr unplug.. Charge again latter, unplog.. Latter charge more? Or charging in one GO to 100% is better with no unpluging?

Edited July 30, 2021 by Funky

[mrelwood]

1 hour ago, Funky said:

And leaving about 30 mins after green. So every cell gets to 100% right?

Battery cell balancing happens the most at the very end of the charging process, and the chargers turn green a bit too early. So it’s best to charge to full and let balance in one go.

I always let it charge with green charger LEDs for several hours. But if you do it at every charge, 30min is probably enough.

1 hour ago, Funky said:

If i can ride 40.000Km for charging 100% everytime, i would be so happy.

You will probably go through at least three EUCs to get to 40000km!  And the difference in charging habits would only mean whether the capacity is 80% or 90% of the original. Both are something you would probably not even notice!

1 hour ago, Funky said:

Dosen't that also hurt the battery, if i leave them charging for longer time after green, fully charged?

Yes, it does exhaust the cells more than if you would only charge to 80%. But the way the cell balancing works with all EUC batteries, balance charging is more than 10 times more important!

[Paul A]

EUC app will show voltage at or above 84.2V but the light on the charger(s) will still be red and not green.

Not sure if the app or the charger is incorrect.

Charging rate with two chargers, seems to be around 20.6 minutes per 1 volt.

Five percent battery is around 68.8V.

Edited July 30, 2021 by Paul A
typing error

[mrelwood]

20 minutes ago, Paul A said:

Not sure if the app or the charger is incorrect.

Probably neither. Li-ion charging consists of two phases. At first the charger adjusts the voltage to keep a Constant charging Current (CC). Once the voltage reaches the preset maximum (84V), it keeps a Constant Voltage (CV) while the battery cells are still charged.

Li-ion batteries are not fuel tanks, and the charging voltage doesn’t directly indicate the state of charge. The voltage stays at 84V for the whole CV phase, which lasts for a good while. This is when most of the cell balancing happens.

It’s crucial to let the charging finish before unplugging the charger, that’s why there are colored LEDs on the charger.

[.....]

WHeel reported votage to apps is NOTORIOUSLY inaccurate. Its not any certain brand either. I'd say the charger is mosre likely closer to correct. The only way to find out for sure, is to break out the multimeter and conduct testing. I dont think any of the 8 wheels I've owned, have reported votage that was correct. However, they all were easily within spec when checked via meter. I say, if you can get near 84v, call it a win and try not to ocd about it. Just charge it until it goes green. Every now and then, leave it on for an extra hour or two. If you are storing it unridden for more than a cpla weeks, charge it to 80% or discharge it by riding to 80%. Fwiw, EVERY LAST ONE of the 11 chargers I've tested, charged properly, tho the wheel reported wrong.

Edited July 30, 2021 by ShanesPlanet

[Unventor]

5 hours ago, Funky said:

Yeah you might be on something.. Firstly thanks! for that long post

If i can ride 40.000Km for charging 100% everytime, i would be so happy. Whit that range i would have the battery for 6+ years easy.

And yes inbalancing cells might make one or two completely empty, meaning it might die.. And thats why the battery also dies faster.. Will charge every second or third day then.. When i will be under 60% i will start charging them to 100%.

And leaving about 30 mins after green. So every cell gets to 100% right?

That will work better?

Dosen't that also hurt the battery, if i leave them charging for longer time after green, fully charged?

Also can i charge like this>> Charge for 1 hr unplug.. Charge again latter, unplog.. Latter charge more? Or charging in one GO to 100% is better with no unpluging?

Debating charging is like debating politics or religion. One thing is theory another is how day to day practice works. Yes One can maybe nurse the battery, but fact is most have swap to a new wheel before it becomes a problem. In my view unbalanced cells is a bigger problem than degrading once. There are a balancing process, but if one cell get way out of sync with others there is no way you can monitor that on most EUC. And those you can monitor it on right now, well as far as I know is not manufactured anymore.

The development of new model is happening so fast that degrading cells really do not matter. I also think once you get to ride your own EUC, you will very fast embrace this new  transport and the lifestyle changes it has meant to most of us here. And due to that you will eventually upgrade or buy a wheel that do things your current one do not do as well. If you look at people signatures and profile on a PC you will see most own more than one wheel after a while. 

What you imagine today that you need or want form a wheel  will change. I used to work in IT sales, people buying their first PC, can never envision what that new tool can do for them. And one thing is using one from time to time. Once you own one it becomes a different story. EUC is no different, actually it is very much the same.

I gather you have been doing a lot of research before jumping into EUC riding or at least deciding to buy one yourself. So did I. We ride for different reasons. But here is my story, neither me or any in my surroundings (work, friends, familie) could imagine what impact EUC had for me, least of all me. I had hopes, but you really never know. 

 

[Paul A]

@mrelwood@ShanesPlanet  Ok, thanks for the info, will charge until green light next time and see what happens.

[mrelwood]

1 hour ago, Paul A said:

@mrelwood@ShanesPlanet  Ok, thanks for the info, will charge until green light next time and see what happens.

What the green LED means:

 As the charging current slowly drops during the CV phase of charging, it would never actually get to 0.000A. Therefore the charger has to let the user know when the charging is sufficiently done. But some chargers do this at 0.7A, some at 0.3A. Neither of them is anything to sneeze at when it is going to the cells that have a lower state of charge.

That’s why we leave the charger connected still after it turns green. When monitoring the charging with a Charge Doctor, I used to go down to 0.01 - 0.02 A. And as I mentioned earlier, it worked very well for my MSX.

[Paul A]

@mrelwoodOk, did a charge until green light came on.

EUC app showed reading of 84.6V.

Will see if there is any noticeable difference in range/voltage consumption on next ride.

Thanks for the info.

[.....]

10 minutes ago, Paul A said:

@mrelwoodOk, did a charge until green light came on.

EUC app showed reading of 84.6V.

Will see if there is any noticeable difference in range/voltage consumption on next ride.

Thanks for the info.

That sounds pretty damn close. Much closer than I usually see. Nothing to worry about for sure. Just charge it up fully from time to time and you should be good to go.

[Chriull]

2 hours ago, Paul A said:

@mrelwoodOk, did a charge until green light came on.

EUC app showed reading of 84.6V.

Seems to be an ks18xl to show sone about half volt too much...

2 hours ago, Paul A said:

Will see if there is any noticeable difference in range/voltage consumption on next ride.

Most presumably nothing dramatic or even notable is to be expected. As the charge graph in https://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/LG 21700 M50 5000mAh (Grey) UK.html shows there are very roughly just some 5% of capacity to be gained during the CC stage. Depends of course strongly an charging current, battery state, brand,overall cell balance.

As written before it's mainly for balancing.

 (https://forum.electricunicycle.org/topic/22109-passive-balancing-a-simulation/)

[Funky]

Now there's only one question left to ask.. And if not one of most IMPORTANT question ever!!!

 

 

Should i go White & Black?  I kinda want white one, but won't it get dirty fast? Won't white in time become yellowish color? And if i glue black padding all over it..

It won't look so geat :S.. Black on black you almost can't see the padding. But my heart says WHITE   AHH the decisions, decisions.

[Tawpie]

SOLUTION: put a roll.nz on it and it can be purple (I think, I don't know what colors are available for the 18XL).

 

 

Black shows ALL the dust (I have black, the 16x and recent MTens are model Ts—any color you want as long as it's black). Go with your heart!

Edited July 30, 2021 by Tawpie

[Unventor]

53 minutes ago, Funky said:

Now there's only one question left to ask.. And if not one of most IMPORTANT question ever!!!

 

 

Should i go White & Black?  I kinda want white one, but won't it get dirty fast? Won't white in time become yellowish color? And if i glue black padding all over it..

It won't look so geat :S.. Black on black you almost can't see the padding. But my heart says WHITE   AHH the decisions, decisions.

As far as I know white is a glossy finish. Black Can be either, unless they only go by matt these days. It is a personal preference, but Glossy will show all minor scratches as soon as you unbox it. I have never been fan of glossy finishes, it is so unpractical and the glossy look never last very long. The Matt black is a pretty forgiving surface finish. 

One could alway paint or wrap the shell parts but to get a good look you need to have practice with this. Like said above, bodyguard gives so some sort of styling. As of colour and design mix I am sure you can work something out with @Chrissi

[Funky]

Bodyguard cost the same as new outer shell or more.. Then i would better ride without it and change shell in 1 year or so

For 20$ i could make "Fuzzy Wheel" from floar mats. xD  And i think it would be more sturdy than simple cloth.

 Yeah could DIY paint it, would be fun project to do. Car spray paint would be easy. (The sanding would be most time consuming) Still can't choose one.

 

[.....]

2 hours ago, Funky said:

Bodyguard cost the same as new outer shell or more.. Then i would better ride without it and change shell in 1 year or so

For 20$ i could make "Fuzzy Wheel" from floar mats. xD  And i think it would be more sturdy than simple cloth.

 Yeah could DIY paint it, would be fun project to do. Car spray paint would be easy. (The sanding would be most time consuming) Still can't choose one.

 

Go with white. Rubberized black is simply a pita. All mine have been white shells and covered in a RollNZ. Painting plastic is a kids game imho. Replacing shells is a laborious game. RollNZ cover is a gentlemans game.  Dont forget, the rollNZ cover also feels good on the legs. It should be a no brainer. Why repaint the car yearly when you can simply protect it for years? Fwiw, RollNZ covers are industrial quality neoprene. Far cry from simple cloth or the other BS cheap choices. Ironically, I have a box with a spare set of XL new shells here in black.

 

Edited July 30, 2021 by ShanesPlanet

[mrelwood]

Probably 90% of current wheel’s are (matte) black. So if you want to stand out, go white. Scratches might show up easier on it, but only when looking at close range. Further away white is more forgiving.

The Roll bodyguard is far from a “simple cloth“. It’s a relatively thick neoprene cover that besides adding grip, changes the overall feel of the wheel between your legs. It even acts a little as a bumper when the wheel tumbles.

[The Fat Unicyclist]

I'm late to this party, but feel it's worth mentioning one additional point (in case it is useful to someone else reading through)...

The 18XL has more cell series in parallel than the 18L. As a heavier rider, this is significant. More cells in parallel effectively means that more current is available when it is needed. 

I have both the L and XL ( both 2000 watt), and there are places I ride where I can feel the L stutter a little trying to supply power, while the XL sails through smoothly. 

[Funky]

Question about kingsong app:

Lets say, i set up padle angle, speed alarms, tilt back.. I do need to be connected via Bluetooth all the time?

Can i power up wheel and ride it without phone? Will it remmember all the setting if im not connected to phone? (I can leave phone at home simply put?)

Edited July 31, 2021 by Funky

[Unventor]

Just now, Funky said:

Question about kingsong app:

Lets say, i set up padle angle, speed alarms, tilt back.. I do need to be connected via Bluetooth all the time?

Lets say, i simply power up wheel. Will it still remmember all the setting and i can ride? Simply speaking can i ride it without phone? Or do i need to be connected all the time?

While doing setting you need to have an app connected. A few new models have a display menu where this is not needed. But I would not recommend these as a starter wheel. And one of them are not easy to carry.

On other wheels as long it is settings in the wheel they will be remembered until changed or reset. 

Some apps offer extra features like EUC.WORLD or Darknessbot. But then you need to have these running and connected.

[.....]

9 hours ago, Funky said:

Question about kingsong app:

Lets say, i set up padle angle, speed alarms, tilt back.. I do need to be connected via Bluetooth all the time?

Can i power up wheel and ride it without phone? Will it remmember all the setting if im not connected to phone? (I can leave phone at home simply put?)

Not a fan of the KS app. MOST wheels will allow you to set what you want and it will retain that preference upon startup. Some wheels don't SEND the preferences each time, so if you connect an app it won't recall the wheel settings and will change the wheel to what you have on the app. Kind of a pain, if I set stuff up on eucw on my sherm/Mten and it differs from what I had last on Darknessbot.

To put it simply, you can set the wheel how you want and never have to use an app again. Well, cept for brand new Kingsogns that you want to up the speed once you reach enough miles. I say, avoid the KS app like the plague.

As @Unventor mentions, eucw has a lot of addon alarms that are handled within the app istelf. If you want even more safety than is possible thru just the wheel beeps, youll need leave the app running, as the APP controls alarms in realtime, for the extras. Im pretty confident in my 18XL, so I find no issue with NOT using an app and riding like a demon at times. Eucw also gathers tours. Some of mine are visible thru my signature link.

Edited August 1, 2021 by ShanesPlanet

[The Fat Unicyclist]

50 minutes ago, ShanesPlanet said:

Not a fan of the KS app.

I agree... Forget the factory apps, go with EUC World.

@Sebarocks!   

[Funky]

EUC.WORLD for android

Darknessbot for apple

right?

[.....]

20 minutes ago, Funky said:

EUC.WORLD for android

Darknessbot for apple

right?

Yup. I went droid and a tiny 'lemfo'  with eucw for my dedicated 18XL device. I tossed a samsung s9 (no sim card) on the sherman with eucw. Eucw also handles updates for Kingsong wheels, including reverts. VERY handy and Seba is the man!

Edited August 1, 2021 by ShanesPlanet