ewheels fast charger

[Dogmaticjoe]

I've read some things calling 3rd party chargers unsafe but is the ewheels (trusted, well known brand) safe for it's rapid chargers. I'm thinking about getting the one for the KS18XL because it seems like the charger it comes with from ewheels will only be a 1.5a charger.

[Arbolest]

The eWheels fast chargers are perfectly safe. No worries there.

[Waulnut]

eWheels charger works great. 

[Bunkerdays]

Has anyone looked into the quality of the fast charger on Ewheels.com 

https://www.ewheels.com/product/100-8v-8a-rapid-charger-gotway-msx-nikola-monster/

I was wondering if this was a viable option compared to several of the other suggestions posted on here. 

Thanks. 

Edited August 17, 2021 by RagingGrandpa
(moved discussion from Veteran to the General forum, since this is relevant to all EUC owners)

[RagingGrandpa]

On 8/13/2021 at 5:21 PM, Bunkerdays said:

Has anyone looked into the quality of the fast charger on Ewheels.com

Lots of discussion on the Jia Rui charger (branded under many names including Ewheels) below.
https://forum.electricunicycle.org/topic/17594-what-do-you-think-about-the-1008v-5a-7a-9a-current-adjustable-charger-for-gotway/?do=findComment&comment=368751

[MrRobot]

9 hours ago, RagingGrandpa said:

Lots of discussion on the Jia Rui charger (branded under many names including Ewheels) below.
https://forum.electricunicycle.org/topic/17594-what-do-you-think-about-the-1008v-5a-7a-9a-current-adjustable-charger-for-gotway/?do=findComment&comment=368751

I don't understand the conversations here. So does the ewheels charger not balance the cells completely? 

 

I certainly don't plan on fast charging it all the time but I wanted to use it to partial charge to 80-90% regularly. Is this not what I want to do? 

Edited August 16, 2021 by MrRobot

[Chriull]

12 minutes ago, MrRobot said:

I don't understand the conversations here. So does the ewheels charger not balance the cells completely? 

This specific charger, as beeing the only one to cut off charging at some threshold and by this maybr respecting the cell manufacturer specificationscould be the best one could have. But one does nit know the threshold by now and there are many not so positive rumours about it - hatd to say if there is anything substantial or not...

Balancing is very misunderstood imho until now:

12 minutes ago, MrRobot said:

 

I certainly don't plan on fast charging

There is about no fast charging. Some modern wheels with low parallel cell count could maybe be fast charged. But normally all available chargers are low to normal charge. Especially for new wheels used cells datasheets have to be looked at to determine charging limits!

12 minutes ago, MrRobot said:

 it all the time but I wanted to use it to partial charge to 80-90% regularly. Is this not what I want to do? 

80-90% charge is the best and most secure way to destroy ones battery as no balancing is happening at all!

[MrRobot]

6 minutes ago, Chriull said:

This specific charger, as beeing the only one to cut off charging at some threshold and by this maybr respecting the cell manufacturer specificationscould be the best one could have. But one does nit know the threshold by now and there are many not so positive rumours about it - hatd to say if there is anything substantial or not...

Balancing is very misunderstood imho until now:

There is about no fast charging. Some modern wheels with low parallel cell count could maybe be fast charged. But normally all available chargers are low to normal charge. Especially for new wheels used cells datasheets have to be looked at to determine charging limits!

80-90% charge is the best and most secure way to destroy ones battery as no balancing is happening at all!

OK now I am even more confused. Lol you certainly sound like you know your stuff I just don't understand 90% of it. 

So... I should just use the ewheels charger and charge it up to 100% all the time? 

[Tawpie]

47 minutes ago, MrRobot said:

I should just use the ewheels charger and charge it up to 100% all the time?

100% plus an extra hour or a bit more so the pack is balanced every time you charge it. The extra time for balancing applies to all chargers.

And it is horrifically confusing, our collective understanding has improved over the years so the advice is evolving—an EUC battery pack is a unique beast and requires care that's slightly different than what is needed for things like cell phones and flashlights.

[MrRobot]

1 minute ago, Tawpie said:

100% plus an extra hour or a bit more so the pack is balanced every time you charge it. The extra time for balancing applies to all chargers.

And it is horrifically confusing, our collective understanding has improved over the years so the advice is evolving—an EUC battery pack is a unique beast and requires care that's slightly different than what is needed for things like cell phones and flashlights.

Yes it seems like I need a degree in electric engineering to understand these posts... And I am still waiting on my new Sherman to be delivered eta 3 weeks out. Just very nervous with these posts and want to make sure I follow best charging practices right off the bat with this wheel seeing as how real the battery shortages have become lately. 

 

Should I just buy a 3amp 100v gotway charger to be safe and use that for overnight charges? And use the ewheels 8amp charger in rare cases where I want to charge quickly? 

[Tawpie]

If it were me, I'd stick with the eWheels charger. Partly because if it blows up or kills your wheel, eWheels stands by their stuff.

My habit is to charge before I ride, mostly because I don't want to leave the wheel unattended during charging, and to a much lesser degree because less time it spent at full charge is 'better' — the range difference of 'better' might be noticeable after 20k miles (and I'm serious about that number!).

Edited August 17, 2021 by Tawpie

[MrRobot]

1 minute ago, Tawpie said:

If it were me, I'd stick with the eWheels charger. Partly because if it blows up or kills your wheel, eWheels stands by their stuff.

My habit is to charge before I ride, mostly because I don't want to leave the wheel unattended during charging, and to a much lesser degree because less time it spent at full charge is 'better' — the range difference of 'better' might be noticeable after 20k miles (and I'm serious about that number!).

But ewheels charger won't charge to 100% so it won't balance the pack right? Is the idea of partially charging to 80% to prolong the cell life no longer true?

[Tawpie]

I'm certain that it will charge to 100% and if left on for an hour after the green light comes on it will balance your pack. The 80% thing applies to single cells, not battery packs that stack 24 cells together. Well, the 80% thing does apply to the individual cells in a pack too but balancing the pack is more important because it prevents premature wear that can be much more severe in an unbalanced pack. One dead cell in the pack renders the whole thing dangerous or dead.

So the real difference is an EUC uses many cells (hundreds in your Sherman) all connected together and the charging recommendations are for the pack as a whole. The 80% single cell rule is still true for each cell in the pack, but the amount of 'damage' to the pack caused by taking each individual cell to 100% is far far less than what happens when you allow the pack to become unbalanced.

The current (lowest cost) design of EUC battery packs require them to be at 100% before they balance, so the poison has been chosen at the design/cost desk.

Edited August 17, 2021 by Tawpie

[MrRobot]

33 minutes ago, Tawpie said:

I'm certain that it will charge to 100% and if left on for an hour after the green light comes on it will balance your pack. The 80% thing applies to single cells, not battery packs that stack 24 cells together. Well, the 80% thing does apply to the individual cells in a pack too but balancing the pack is more important because it prevents premature wear that can be much more severe in an unbalanced pack. One dead cell in the pack renders the whole thing dangerous or dead.

So the real difference is an EUC uses many cells (hundreds in your Sherman) all connected together and the charging recommendations are for the pack as a whole. The 80% single cell rule is still true for each cell in the pack, but the amount of 'damage' to the pack caused by taking each individual cell to 100% is far far less than what happens when you allow the pack to become unbalanced.

The current (lowest cost) design of EUC battery packs require them to be at 100% before they balance, so the poison has been chosen at the design/cost desk.

Ah thanks I didn't know this I thought it stopped at like 98% when the green light came on and the fan turns off, didn't know it continues to trickle charge... 

I do usually overnight charge though so I can ride after work... But I suppose I could look into an outlet with a timer 

And thanks for all this info. The other thing I was told was to wait about 15 minutes after a ride to charge for the cells to cool down. Is this bs too? 

[Tawpie]

Not bs. it's a good idea not to charge when the batteries are hot or frozen—room temp is best if you can mange it. I think what causes a lot of confusion is that nearly all we have known/read/hear is for the most part accurate, it's just that our situation is a fairly recent development and because we're blessed with the lowest possible cost hardware, we're actually a special case. If the manufacturers spent the extra $ for 'proper' charge and balance control, we'd not have to learn so much. But we would have to pay for the privilege!

Edited August 17, 2021 by Tawpie

[Dominic Winsor]

8 hours ago, Tawpie said:

I'm certain that it will charge to 100% and if left on for an hour after the green light comes on it will balance your pack. The 80% thing applies to single cells, not battery packs that stack 24 cells together. Well, the 80% thing does apply to the individual cells in a pack too but balancing the pack is more important because it prevents premature wear that can be much more severe in an unbalanced pack. One dead cell in the pack renders the whole thing dangerous or dead.

Well said. The pack vs. individual cell thing needs to be better understood.

Most chargers are completely dumb, and the green light is not an indicator of anything other than the voltage it us outputting. As I understand it, the light is red whilst the voltage is low and once it is above a threshold it turns green. I.e. it just provides the necessary volts and amps. It is the BMS on-board that is continuously balancing (I think).

I suffered a critical failure on my Onewheel XR when my pack had a weak cell at 100% charge. I slowed down, the voltage spiked and I was in free-fall. I should have suspected that would happen as I was already monitoring the battery after it began to misbehave. I eventually replaced the battery. This sheet shows some of the balancing behaviour.

I used this to input into the design of the Onewheel Community Edition app design — see around 4 minutes in on this video where I explain the design rationale.

[Chriull]

1 hour ago, Dominic Winsor said:

Most chargers are completely dumb,

All EUC stock chargers are dumb. They are just a current limiting voltage source. So they can provide the needed charge profile for li ion battery packs. First constant current and then the constant (max) voltage.

Quote

and the green light is not an indicator of anything other than the voltage it us outputting.

 

Quote

and the green light is not an indicator of anything other than the voltage it us outputting. As I understand it, the light is red whilst the voltage is low and once it is above a threshold it turns green.

No. The light turns green once the charging current drops below some threshold. Meaning charging is done or the BMS cut off due to single cell group overvoltage.

Unfortionately this charge current threshold is not really set for the specific wheels battery pack (manufacturers specify these currents in the cells datasheet) nor does the chargers turn off once this threshold is reached. The just turn the led green and go on "torturing" the cells.

Quote

It is the BMS on-board that is continuously balancing (I think).

But just during the constant voltage stage and after this. Or more exactly once any single cell group voltage exceeds ~4.2V.

Quote

I suffered a critical failure on my Onewheel XR when my pack had a weak cell at 100% charge. I slowed down, the voltage spiked and I was in free-fall. I should have suspected that would happen as I was already monitoring the battery after it began to misbehave. I eventually replaced the battery. This sheet shows some of the balancing behaviour.

Strangly the chargers led turned green in line 10 with the CV stage not started and no cell overvoltage occuring causing the BMS to cut off.

Line 11 and 12 the voltages just went down and balanced - seems very much like an active balancer is used by Onewheel? And then  line 13-15 charging continued with some small balancing happening again.

So this seems to be very different from BMS used in EUCs (by now) - known EUC BMS use just passive (top) balancing.

Edited August 17, 2021 by Chriull

[RagingGrandpa]

18 hours ago, MrRobot said:

I thought it stopped when the green light came on and the fan turns off

That's right.

The "ewheels fast charger" (jia rui design) does stop its output when the green light turns on. If the charger is adjusted properly, this is fine. Balancing will occur.
Select the "100%" position on the switch, let it charge till green, (then unplug it or leave it connected, makes no difference), then ideally let the EUC rest another ~30 minutes for balance bleeding to finish, then ride.
If you're not in a hurry, you can be even gentler with the battery by selecting a medium-current setting on the charger, such as 4A or 5A. The current setting does not affect the end-of-charge behavior: balancing will happen for any of the current settings.

The "stock chargers" (e.g. 100.8V 3A charger included with Gotway; or 100.8V 5A charger included with Veteran) are different. They do not stop their output when the green light turns on.
So for those chargers, leaving them connected another ~30min after green can provide even more opportunity for balancing. And it's more important to unplug them from the EUC in a timely manner (don't leave the charger connected for days please!).

Most EUC's do not report a very accurate voltage to their bluetooth app, so don't be alarmed if your charger light turns green but the app shows 98% SOC. The battery is OK, and it doesn't matter that the EUC controller's measurement is off by ~1V.

 

Edited August 17, 2021 by RagingGrandpa

[MrRobot]

2 hours ago, RagingGrandpa said:

That's right.

The "ewheels fast charger" (jia rui design) does stop its output when the green light turns on. If the charger is adjusted properly, this is fine. Balancing will occur.
Select the "100%" position on the switch, let it charge till green, (unplug it or leave it connected, makes no difference), then ideally let the EUC rest another ~30 minutes for balance bleeding to finish, then ride.
If you're not in a hurry, you can be even gentler with the battery by selecting a medium-current setting on the charger, such as 4A or 5A. The current setting does not affect the end-of-charge behavior: balancing will happen for any of the current settings.

The "stock chargers" (e.g. 100.8V 3A charger included with Gotway; or 100.8V 5A charger included with Veteran) are different. They do not stop their output when the green light turns on.
So for those chargers, leaving them connected another ~30min after green can provide even more opportunity for balancing. And it's more important to unplug them from the EUC in a timely manner (don't leave the charger connected for days please!).

Most EUC's do not report a very accurate voltage to their bluetooth app, so don't be alarmed if your charger light turns green but the app shows 98% SOC. The battery is OK, and it doesn't matter that the EUC controller's measurement is off by ~1V.

 

Very good information. Thank you very much.

When you say "If the charger is adjusted properly" this is calibration that ewheels would have done? Nothing I have any control over I'm assuming. 

Also I'm curious what's the recommendation for storing wheels for the winter. Should you fully charge them, let them balance, and then run them down to like 60% and let them sit for 3 months? Should it be charged and ran at all in between? 

[RagingGrandpa]

2 hours ago, MrRobot said:

When you say "If the charger is adjusted properly" this is calibration that ewheels would have done?

Ewheels is a vendor, not a manufacturer.

Calibration (voltage trimming) is done by the manufacturer, but of course the accuracy of that manual step in the manufacturing process does lead to some variability. If the charger is set a little high, the EUC BMS may 'trip' and prevent full charging. If it's a little low, cell balancing will be less effective.

2 hours ago, MrRobot said:

Nothing I have any control over I'm assuming. 

Actually, the trimming of the output voltage is easily adjustable, when the lid of the charger is removed.

The practical problem is:  what will you use as your reference instrument, to check the output voltage?
You cannot use the EUC: its controller is not accurate enough, as previously mentioned.
Digital multimeters typically have a 1%-full-scale voltage accuracy, which typically means 1% of the 200V range, so an entire 2V of inaccuracy is possible. But instead, we'd like to get within 100mV of the ideal voltage (100.8V). So the handheld meter is not good enough.
What you really need is a certified meter. Certification is temporary, and must be repeated (usually annually). Certified calibration is a professional service that is not practical for home users.

The manufacturer has a calibrated meter.
(We could argue if it's really accurate or not so accurate... but their testbench meter is better than any non-certified handheld device you have at home.)

So really, better to trust the manufacturer and not change the voltage trim yourself.
Sorry for putting the "adjusted properly" caveat in my earlier comment... most of the time, they are.

 

2 hours ago, MrRobot said:

what's the recommendation for storing wheels for the winter.

A big question is: does your EUC controller cause a parasitic drain of the battery?
Most modern EUC's don't. This is good. (The old ninebot Z10 did have parasitic drain... and onewheels have this problem too. If so, the battery requires check-ups during storage.)
We don't want the cells to ever get below 2.5V. With modern EUC's and no significant parasitic drain during storage, it won't (regardless of what voltage you begin at).
If you want to check for parasitic drain:
 - leave the EUC powered off for 1 day (this allows time for the voltage to stabilize from any previous riding or charging)
 - turn it on while the motor is disabled (e.g.: EUC resting on its side) and check the app-reported voltage
 - turn it off and leave it alone for 7 more days
 - turn it on and check the voltage again
If the day 1 voltage and the day 8 voltage are within 150mV of eachother: congratulations, no drain.

So assuming there's no significant drain, pick a middle voltage. I think 3.6V/cell is great, so about 86V/pack.
Over the winter, the voltage may decay to 3.0V/cell. No harm, and no need to do anything with the EUC during storage.
If you're feeling nervous, turn it on (any time) and check that the app-reported voltage is higher than 80V. If lower, recharge to 86.

Ideally we would minimize temperature changes as well: better to store in a place that does not get daily freeze-thaw cycles. Attics and sheds are bad; concrete basements are excellent...

Don't stress about the little details.
As long as you don't have an EUC affected by parasitic drain, there's no way to damage your pack by a large amount from just one winter of storage.
"Ideal storage" and "worst-case storage" may make a ~10% difference in capacity after a few seasons... but your EUC will still work.
 

Edited August 17, 2021 by RagingGrandpa

[Dominic Winsor]

10 hours ago, Chriull said:

Line 11 and 12 the voltages just went down and balanced - seems very much like an active balancer is used by Onewheel? And then  line 13-15 charging continued with some small balancing happening again.

 

Indeed the Onewheel is actively balanced. It also does the same thing when connected to a generic AliExpress charger (I tried with a YZPOWER brand). 

For the Sherman… I have one of these adjustable 100.8v chargers coming from Afeez at E-Rides, as I don't fully trust the OEM charger from Veteran. The fans on mine sound like they are on their last legs. I intend to use this adjustable charger at or below 5A as it is often a day between rides and I've never been down below 55% yet… 

Personally, I tend to leave my Sherm on charge permanently as it gets ridden often enough but even after a week it is fine. I did so with all of my prior EUCs (S18, MCM5 v2, Z10, ACM 850wh)… a behaviour informed by having had Onewheels for longer than I had EUCs.

Edited August 17, 2021 by Dominic Winsor

[RagingGrandpa]

1 hour ago, Dominic Winsor said:

I have one of these adjustable 100.8v chargers

Personally, I tend to leave my Sherm on charge permanently

Leaving the EUC connected "permanently" is not so bad with that charger, because it shuts off its output. This prevents the cells and BMS from being tortured with "float charging."
There still is a small additional risk from leaving it connected for days at a time: a fault in the charger (perhaps resulting from an AC power fluctuation) could lead to an unattended issue... but the charger is fused and the EUC protects its charging port, so it would take a multi-point failure for anything catastrophic to happen.

But it's important to advise others not to leave chargers connected to the EUC "permanently."
The chargers below never shut off and long-term connection will cause long-term heating of the balance resistors, and undue wear to the cells.

  

 

Unplug them within a few hours of the light turning green!

 

 

Edited August 17, 2021 by RagingGrandpa

[.....]

Just get an ewheels (or similar) charger. The veteran stock charger works but is cheap. You can adjust how fast or slow you want the charger to charge. I typically charge slowly for sh*ts and giggles. No matter what rate I charge at, the e-wheels will lower as it reaches max and begin to 'trickle' for the last part. It even goes so far as to cycle to no power then a little then none for a bit as it finishes the charge. The readout screen shows that the amperage its finishing with is miniscule. Once the cycles are done, it quits sending charge completely. I could leave the charger on for a day and no amperage will be sent, once the wheel and charger communicate that its full. You can unplug and try to charge a full wheel and the charger and wheel simply ignore it and stay powered off. Fwiw, my votage readout on the wheel was miserably lower than reality. My charger was also stating slightly lower than reality. Having checked witha  quality meter, I can attest that the end result is my veteran is charged 100.8v even tho ALL sensors are telling me its less. In short, its working perfectly.

I like the settings of 80/90/100%  I charge after a ride and wheel cools, to 100% typically. I store mine at 100% as I ride regularly. However, my spare mten (ewheels charger for it) sits a lot, so I charge it up to 80% by default. I still fully charge and balance it regularly.  The same charger I use for my mten, happens to work for my scooter as well.

Edited August 17, 2021 by ShanesPlanet

[Tawpie]

10 hours ago, MrRobot said:

let them sit for 3 months?

Blasphemy I say!

Yeah yeah, the wheel will be fine, but what about its rider? Do not do this. It pains me to even think about it.

Edited August 18, 2021 by Tawpie

[MrRobot]

58 minutes ago, Tawpie said:

Blasphemy I say!

Yeah yeah, the wheel will be fine, but what about its rider? Do not do this. It pains me to even think about it.

Lol yes I agree... Unfortunately Chicago winters and winds do not. It's absolutely no fun riding an euc in weather under freezing and 30mph winds