Shocked at how drastically tire change affected ride characteristics (Nik+)

[AtlasP]

I've been riding a 100v Nik+ as my primary wheel for well over a year and thousands of miles (to the point of thoroughly wearing the tread off the original CST C-1488 tire), and despite becoming 'accustomed' to it and overall enjoying its functional speed & range, I still always felt like it was awkwardly wide and turned horribly at speed (what some here call 'gyro effect')--and it seemed that no amount of skill or experience with it could really overcome these wheel characteristics, instead I merely learned to live/deal with them. (Which I have been doing in part due to financial impact of the pandemic, versus buying new wheels/changing wheels as often as I would otherwise.)

Upon reaching the point when the original CST C-1488 tire was in dire need of being replaced, at the advice of several on this forum (most notably @mrelwood) I chose to replace it with the 16x3 CY H-666. And while intellectually I understood and it made sense to me how different tires (construction and tread) could affect ride characteristics/particularly turning, I was fully unprepared for just how *drastically* it would do so. Basically such that the new tire experience is almost unrecognizable from the previous.

For the first several days it was dangerously twitchy, and even the slightest turn/tilt would 'bite' and cause the wheel to try to turn extremely sharply. I feared I had made a terrible mistake. Then after a few days and what I'm convinced is a combination of both my adjusting to the new tire but also breaking it in (wearing off an outer layer of the rubber which seemed particularly tacky), the end result is if I had purchased an entirely new (and thoroughly superior) EUC. It now turns categorically easier and much more similar to my smaller, lighter, and thinner-tire wheels. The lack of the wheel's former resistance to turning (and consequently a lack of the vast majority of pressure I would experience against my legs when turning) means that now I even perceive it as lighter and less wide. I can't stress enough just how much better my wheel is just due to a few bucks in rubber that I desperately wish I had spent/done sooner.

Takeaways:

1. If you're riding any of the 16x3 wheels with a CST C-1488 tire, I thoroughly recommend you do yourself a favor and change it. (Particularly if it's a wheel you're going to be living with for another season due to the impact of the current battery crisis.)
2. A lot has been said here about tire width and EUC height vs width and overall weight distribution, and how these things supposedly affect ride characteristics/particularly maneuverability and turning--things I had read and believed I agreed with and repeated. I would like to rescind them all, as now I am firmly convinced that tire tread is at least if not more important (potentially substantially more) than any of those other characteristics combined. Certainly the majority of what I believed to be the defining feel of the Nik+ (and every Nik I've ever tested) was not the wheel itself and instead turned out to be due to its tire. (Or perhaps some combination. For example perhaps the particular tire exacerbated some of the other characteristics of the particular EUC, or the other way around and the characteristics of the particular EUC happened to exacerbate some of the characteristics of this particular tire. Either way changing the tire was enough to reverse this effect, which is far easier/cheaper to do than changing the EUC itself.)
3. I now believe a large majority of what gets said about how any particular wheel supposedly 'feels' is really down to the particular tire on it versus the device itself. (It's like comparing the audio quality of different device outputs but also using different headphones--what you're perceiving is first and foremost the headphones versus what is driving them. Here headphones=tires.) This even explains some of the flat-out contradictory things said about the same wheels by different people, which could easily be due to them simply trying different instances of the same model but with different tires. ("I experienced a ton of gyro effect"/"I experienced no gyro effect", etc.)
4. My eternal gratitude to @mrelwood for basically giving a me a new and utterly superior wheel for under $50.

 

Edited July 21, 2021 by AtlasP

[mrelwood]

Thank you for the compliments! You have now found the source of motivation I’ve had for trying out several different tires on my EUCs. While the wheel’s firmware determine the feel when accelerating and braking, it’s indeed the tire that is in charge of the turning behavior.

 The way I see it, turning on an EUC in general is a very sensitive process. After all, practically all other vehicles rely on another tire on the ground to take support from, and to form the turn radius with. On an EUC the turn radius and even the support for the rotational movement of a turn are both taken from the profile and tread of a single tire. That’s why I believe that tiny differences in the tire profile and tread pattern make such a huge difference for us.

 Happy to hear that you found the H666 to be such a great improvement on your Nikola! It really is a great tire, and it was a sad day to hear that it had been discontinued. For 18x3” EUCs (whether they are called 18”, 19” or 20” EUCs… sigh!) the Heidenau K66 motorcycle tire is worthy of the ChaoYang H666’s mantle, but unfortunately it’s not available in the 16x3” size.

[Tawpie]

I was lucky enough to receive my 16xs fitted with the H666... my first wheel so I had absolutely no frame of reference but I have been super pleased with it. It wears like iron the way I ride (mix of pavement and rocks/dirt, approaching 2k miles and the tread looks pretty much new). You WILL be surprised at how well it handles snow, I certainly was (but don't get carried away, it is a street tire!).

[AtlasP]

It's a shame that tire changes are so convoluted and time consuming. Having to go through that entire process to test/compare individual tires is a nightmare compared to for example being able to try multiple different instances of the same model all fitted with different tires side-by-side. I really think this would be an excellent activity for larger riding groups to do, arranging among their members to have different people bring a bunch of the same model each fitted with different tires that people could compare back-to-back. I think it would be a shocking to many people. Could pick a different model to do this for every couple months. I know if a group anywhere near me did something like that I'd go out of my way to attend.

Edited July 21, 2021 by AtlasP

[EUC Custom Power-Pads]

Yeah, the CST-C1488 is a really shit tire. After changing my 16X tire from CX321 to C1488 I was happy, because the C1488 was so much better. But after some time I realized it's not so nice anymore and I switched to the CST-C1773 and this tire is amazing compared to the C1488. 

Never tried the H666, because the 16X became a dust catcher in the meantime. 

[Ben Kim]

When I owned the Nik, i did this stock tire to H666 change, it doesn’t bounce over bumps, eliminates the gyro, BUT there is one caveat, I noticed some loss of range due to the tire being heavier.

[Guest d0n]

I have to think if you wait THAT long before you change a tire... long after it was actually worn out, any new tire is going to feel drastically different. 

I imagine if you changed it much sooner, the difference wouldn't have been so drastic? 

[AtlasP]

6 hours ago, Ben Kim said:

When I owned the Nik, i did this stock tire to H666 change, it doesn’t bounce over bumps, eliminates the gyro, BUT there is one caveat, I noticed some loss of range due to the tire being heavier.

It hasn't been enough for me to notice a reduction in range yet, but that makes sense to me as a possibility and I will keep an eye out for it now just out of curiosity. Although either way, eliminating the 'gyro effect' is sooo worth the tradeoff IMO.

It makes me wonder, is there a mythical tire that one could've used on the Z10 to minimize/remove its 'gyro effect'?

--

Also, I think this is a pretty clear indication that the term 'gyro effect' is incorrect/a misnomer. While the effect experienced (resistance to turning) is similar to that produced by 'gyro effect', clearly they have different causes and gyroscopic forces are not the main cause of this on an EUC (or a heavier tire like the H666 should produce more of it, not less). We need a new term for "resistance to turning due to tire tread".

[AtlasP]

5 hours ago, d0n said:

I have to think if you wait THAT long before you change a tire... long after it was actually worn out, any new tire is going to feel drastically different. 

I imagine if you changed it much sooner, the difference wouldn't have been so drastic? 

The thing is that I've ridden quite a number of other Nikolas at all stages of tire wear (including practically new ones), and they all felt pretty much the same in general street riding (albeit not trying to climb dirt or grass hills or anything where tread would've made more of a difference).

The change here was not merely "my Nikola felt substantially different than it did before after this tire change" but rather "this Nikola felt substantially different from any other Nikola I've ever ridden--fundamentally not like a Nikola--after this tire change".

Edited July 19, 2021 by AtlasP

[conecones]

I have the CST-1773 and haven’t tried other tires but apparently this one is great as well. Actually it does have noticeable gyro feel past 40km/h but the resistance to turning is still much less than 18” wheel.
 

I enjoy the gyro feel and actually wish there was more of it - it creates a sense of stability for 16” wheel that’s needed at speed especially when cornering S-turns where you can lean over during the turn and the wheel helps you straighten out before you lean into the other side. On other wheels where the wheel tends to stay tilted, this motion doesn’t feel as smooth as you have to straighten first  before tilting the other direction. 

[Kurtosis]

1 hour ago, AtlasP said:

Also, I think this is a pretty clear indication that the term 'gyro effect' is incorrect/a misnomer. While the effect experienced (resistance to turning) is similar to that produced by 'gyro effect', clearly they have different causes and gyroscopic forces are not the main cause of this on an EUC (or a heavier tire like the H666 should produce more of it, not less). We need a new term for "resistance to turning due to tire tread".

Tread-induced righting moment?

[Ben Kim]

2 hours ago, AtlasP said:

It hasn't been enough for me to notice a reduction in range yet, but that makes sense to me as a possibility and I will keep an eye out for it now just out of curiosity. Although either way, eliminating the 'gyro effect' is sooo worth the tradeoff IMO.

It makes me wonder, is there a mythical tire that one could've used on the Z10 to minimize/remove its 'gyro effect'?

--

Also, I think this is a pretty clear indication that the term 'gyro effect' is incorrect/a misnomer. While the effect experienced (resistance to turning) is similar to that produced by 'gyro effect', clearly they have different causes and gyroscopic forces are not the main cause of this on an EUC (or a heavier tire like the H666 should produce more of it, not less). We need a new term for "resistance to turning due to tire tread".

i’m testing the H587 which appears to be similar in tread pattern as the 666. This is on an MSX, so it may not be the same in the 16x3 variant. 

[mrelwood]

3 hours ago, AtlasP said:

We need a new term for "resistance to turning due to tire tread".

Actually I think the above should read “tire profile” instead of “tire tread”… But I agree, “gyro effect” is way more misleading. “Uprightning”?

3 hours ago, AtlasP said:

It makes me wonder, is there a mythical tire that one could've used on the Z10 to minimize/remove its 'gyro effect'?

A knobby. They don’t do uprightning much at all. Beyond that I don’t think it’d be doable on a 4.1” tire, as it would have to have an extremely sharp profile in relation to the width. It would of course make it feel and behave like a narrower tire in other ways as well, but then again, I guess that would also be a positive…

39 minutes ago, Ben Kim said:

i’m testing the H587

Ah, the demo S18 tire. How is it? Seems nicely suitable to EUCs, maybe between the H5102 and H666?

[Flying W]

My RS HT came with the 1488 on it. I have about 1100 miles on the tire right now. The tread is cupping like a front tire on a motorcycle and I don't think I'll get much more than 500 additional miles before off road traction is noticably disappearing.

The tire does what everyone says, it wants to stay upright, it follows the road profile. I've gotten used to that and I like the way you put force into it when cornering.

I wish it didn't follow the road profile like it does but it's not unrideable.

My two favorite things about this tire are the way it corners on the road and how well it works off road. It's like a good 50/50 dual sport tire.

Do these other options also work well off road while getting ride of the negative traits the 1488 has? 

When this tore is done I was planning on putting a trials type tire on it like the Sherman's, but I enjoy road and dirt and so far this 1488 does a decent job at both.

[mrelwood]

39 minutes ago, Flying W said:

Do these other options also work well off road while getting ride of the negative traits the 1488 has? 

The H666, K66, K262, and basically all non-obviously-street-MC tires that people get for replacement are more stable and have more off-road (and wet mud) grip than the C-1488.

 But the optimal amount of “gyro effect” (aka. “uprightning” ) is a personal preference, some riders want more, some want less. People also seem to experience it a bit differently, so it’s a difficult feature to compare tires by.

Edited July 20, 2021 by mrelwood

[Ben Kim]

16 hours ago, mrelwood said:

Actually I think the above should read “tire profile” instead of “tire tread”… But I agree, “gyro effect” is way more misleading. “Uprightning”?

A knobby. They don’t do uprightning much at all. Beyond that I don’t think it’d be doable on a 4.1” tire, as it would have to have an extremely sharp profile in relation to the width. It would of course make it feel and behave like a narrower tire in other ways as well, but then again, I guess that would also be a positive…

Ah, the demo S18 tire. How is it? Seems nicely suitable to EUCs, maybe between the H5102 and H666?

Just put 20 miles on it. Sidewall isn’t nearly as stiff as the H666, but not a used condom like the 1488, it loves to carve and dive over, very playful but not nearly as twitchy as a CityPro. I should give it a full 100 miles before forming a conclusive opinion, but initial impressions have it riding somewhere between a 5102 and H666. Haven’t tested it’s wet performance yet but the compound appears to be sticky not plasticky like the 5102. It’s light years better than the 1488 EUC manufacturers like using. On other 14 inch rims like Sherman and EXN you can fit motorcycle tires but on the MSX that can’t fit 80/90 without rubbing this would be a great tire. 

[EUC Sharkman]

Before getting my Nik+AR, I had read and watched reviews of the Nikola, both 84v and 100v, including comparisons to the KS16X, just so I could get a sense of the riding experience I was going to get. I was fully expecting to have to overcome the increased gyro effect, train tracking, and inclination to easy wobbles, which a lot of reviewers named as major cons to the wheel.

 

Once getting the wheel though (with the 1773 tire), I didn’t encounter any of these cons at all. I actively looked for them too while testing the ride out. My guess is that a lot of Nik review videos were made with that initial 1488 tire, which supports how much a tire can affect a wheel’s ride and feel. I should have known too, since the tire change on my Tesla from stock to the MMG tire made it feel like a different wheel entirely, due to the wider 2.5” width and the different tire tread.

 

A lot of riders don’t like to mess with tire changes because of the hassle involved, but maybe it should be more encouraged! Better checking out a sub $50 change than buying a new wheel for $2k+.

[Ben Kim]

3 hours ago, TheSlyGiraffEV said:

Before getting my Nik+AR, I had read and watched reviews of the Nikola, both 84v and 100v, including comparisons to the KS16X, just so I could get a sense of the riding experience I was going to get. I was fully expecting to have to overcome the increased gyro effect, train tracking, and inclination to easy wobbles, which a lot of reviewers named as major cons to the wheel.

 

Once getting the wheel though (with the 1773 tire), I didn’t encounter any of these cons at all. I actively looked for them too while testing the ride out. My guess is that a lot of Nik review videos were made with that initial 1488 tire, which supports how much a tire can affect a wheel’s ride and feel. I should have known too, since the tire change on my Tesla from stock to the MMG tire made it feel like a different wheel entirely, due to the wider 2.5” width and the different tire tread.

 

A lot of riders don’t like to mess with tire changes because of the hassle involved, but maybe it should be more encouraged! Better checking out a sub $50 change than buying a new wheel for $2k+.

after all the tires i’ve been through i can guess how it’s going to ride just by looking at the tread pattern and sidewall specs. One thing i know 100% is soft sidewalls like the c1488 or K262 are a huge no in my book. I bought a wheel not a trampoline. 

Edited July 20, 2021 by Ben Kim

[houseofjob]

2 hours ago, Ben Kim said:

after all the tires i’ve been through i can guess how it’s going to ride just by looking at the tread pattern and sidewall specs. One thing i know 100% is soft sidewalls like the c1488 or K262 are a huge no in my book. I bought a wheel not a trampoline. 

[mrelwood]

11 hours ago, Ben Kim said:

after all the tires i’ve been through i can guess how it’s going to ride just by looking at the tread pattern and sidewall specs. One thing i know 100% is soft sidewalls like the c1488 or K262 are a huge no in my book. I bought a wheel not a trampoline. 

Come on now, the K262 (/ C-186) is a magnificent tire for off-road EUCs!

[AtlasP]

23 hours ago, TheSlyGiraffEV said:

Before getting my Nik+AR ... Once getting the wheel though (with the 1773 tire) ...

Do we know, are all Nik+ AR's fitted with 1773's? ( @Alien Rides )

And I assume the stock Nik+ hasn't made this change?

(If so, that'd be one more reason to go with the AR over a Nik+ from anywhere else.)

Edited July 21, 2021 by AtlasP

[Ben Kim]

On 7/21/2021 at 7:09 AM, mrelwood said:

Come on now, the K262 (/ C-186) is a magnificent tire for off-road EUCs!

after riding the 587 for 70 miles i’ve discovered that I do not like this tire. I wasn’t able to bank hard on it until I broke the tire in, and found it has the same gyro as the 1488, albeit with a harder sidewall. I suppose if you like that feeling but dislike the bounce, it’s a solid tire, but not for me. Already put the 262 back on. i ran the IRC NR77 in a 70/90-14 which performed amazingly BUT it lost 2-3 mph top speed due to its smaller diameter, which is a no go for me in the MSX. 80/90-14 rubs