KingSong KS-16A First Impressions

[Michael Vu]

 

 

[RidingInTheRain]

On 1/12/2016 at 3:35 AM, KaleOsaurusRex said:

We will be riding the King Song 16" for the next few weeks and will update and beautify the review as time goes on.

I've kept checking your review as you updated it. Will you be adding a video of a bit of a ride with the KS 16? Maybe show the speed, endurance, and capability of the wheel and how it handles? That would make it perfect in my opinion. 

 

And although this is probably the wrong place to post these questions: while I have your attention I'll dare it even so. Concerning preordering the wheel from your website:

 - Do you ship to the continental EU? Germany to be specific?

 - Could I preorder the KS 16 in a different color? You hint in your review that multiple colors will be available – can you specify which?

Thanks!

[Chuts]

Pity no one can really test if it is prone to over heat like the 14" when going up 20-30 degrees inclines for more than 10 minutes.  I was really interested in this wheel too but for me this problem has knocked me down a few pegs.

[Cloud]

6 hours ago, Chuts said:

Pity no one can really test if it is prone to over heat like the 14" when going up 20-30 degrees inclines for more than 10 minutes.  I was really interested in this wheel too but for me this problem has knocked me down a few pegs.

How much do you weigh Chuts? I am 100kg and i had the overheating issue in my older wheel but the latest 14 doesnt seem to have this issue at all. Ive gotten as high as 62 degrees on it but i believe that was the limit and the average riding temp for me is around 52. Now this doesnt count the hills, i am sure there is a certain slope at a certain speed and rider weight that will make the wheel overheat. Do you really have to travel 30 degree slopes for 10 minutes? Have you tested this behavior with other wheels? It is possible that other brands would also overheat in extreme conditions

[Jason McNeil]

7 hours ago, Chuts said:

Pity no one can really test if it is prone to over heat like the 14" when going up 20-30 degrees inclines for more than 10 minutes.  I was really interested in this wheel too but for me this problem has knocked me down a few pegs.

Have you chaps seen this with the integrated cooling fan on the KS 16's" control-board. It's temperature activated at 50°C, definitely should help with the overheating. Expecting one of the first KS 16" samples after the Chinese new Year in about 3 weeks (!?), only problem is that Florida is quite possibly even flatter than the Netherlands, not ideal territory for testing sustained climbing.

 

 

 

[davek]

On rare occasion if I'm thrown off or otherwise exit unexpectedly, My King Song 14C bounces like an American football before coming to a rest.

I'd be nervous that this very round King Song 16 would just keep rolling and I'd have to chase it.

[Cloud]

6 hours ago, davek said:

On rare occasion if I'm thrown off or otherwise exit unexpectedly, My King Song 14C bounces like an American football before coming to a rest.

I'd be nervous that this very round King Song 16 would just keep rolling and I'd have to chase it.

What happened to me in the past if i fell off of it or jumped off kingsong would fall on one side and spin for a second or so, it was dangerous because of the foot rest sharp edges flying around. It hasnt happened to me in a long time as ive learned to not fall or to catch it or to stop in a different manner, but it never really continued rolling forward. Usually opwhen one falls or in similar situations the unit is not perfectly straight and unlikely to go forward. I dont think the shape of the 14" vs 16" will make any difference in this sense anyway.

[Chuts]

18 hours ago, Cloud said:

How much do you weigh Chuts? I am 100kg and i had the overheating issue in my older wheel but the latest 14 doesnt seem to have this issue at all. Ive gotten as high as 62 degrees on it but i believe that was the limit and the average riding temp for me is around 52. Now this doesnt count the hills, i am sure there is a certain slope at a certain speed and rider weight that will make the wheel overheat. Do you really have to travel 30 degree slopes for 10 minutes? Have you tested this behavior with other wheels? It is possible that other brands would also overheat in extreme conditions

Yeah I'm around that weight too, however when I go on outings with my HK group we sometime ride up Mountains.  On my last outing @Kevin Lee was riding his KS14 and he over heated pretty quickly and had to push the EU up.  If anyone has seen Kevin (possibly in one of his vids) you will know he is very tall but also very thin maybe around the 75kg weight so it was double surprising that the KS14 over heated.  All other EUs out that day managed to make it up without over heating.

Possibly because the KS are excellent on flats and slight slopes having to sacrifice hill climbing to excel in that area.

[Cloud]

1 hour ago, Chuts said:

Yeah I'm around that weight too, however when I go on outings with my HK group we sometime ride up Mountains.  On my last outing @Kevin Lee was riding his KS14 and he over heated pretty quickly and had to push the EU up.  If anyone has seen Kevin (possibly in one of his vids) you will know he is very tall but also very thin maybe around the 75kg weight so it was double surprising that the KS14 over heated.  All other EUs out that day managed to make it up without over heating.

Possibly because the KS are excellent on flats and slight slopes having to sacrifice hill climbing to excel in that area.

I see.. Well i dont think you have to sacrifice smooth flat riding to excel at hills. Maybe he was riding a previous version. I think even the newer verion could overheat if you go up a steep enough hill long enough. I know too little about the similar experience with other brands to be able to compare  

[Chuts]

1 hour ago, Cloud said:

I see.. Well i dont think you have to sacrifice smooth flat riding to excel at hills. Maybe he was riding a previous version. I think even the newer verion could overheat if you go up a steep enough hill long enough. I know too little about the similar experience with other brands to be able to compare  

It was the newest version of the KS14.

I was riding the oldest and slowest EU of the group and surprisingly still got to the top without having to step off and wheel it up.

[OliverH]

1 hour ago, Chuts said:

It was the newest version of the KS14.

I was riding the oldest and slowest EU of the group and surprisingly still got to the top without having to step off and wheel it up.

Your weight is less than 75 kg?

[Homer69uk]

Got my ks16a 840 today? Many thanks to @Jason McNeil for getting it to me all safe and sound,now I've previously been riding the ninebot E (not +) but with issue with both e+ and P and not enough upscaling for my liking for the money.

1st impressions of ks16 ...very nice,good build quality,lights work well,couldn't get the app on my work android phone to pair to the unit,tried with the iOS app connected straight away,immediately tried the unlock app by @esaj (HUGE THANKS!) and done! Unlocked and ready to go.

1st ride.(15min)..impression..very soft even in "play" mode compared to the 0 I had on the ninebot and turning feels un-natural,it feels like I have to work harder to turn it...nothing nothing then suddenly it almost drops to one side and sometime feels like a struggle to straighten up,feels slower to accelerate but that may be just me being a bit wussy with a new wheel,braking however feels completely different,very controlled and smooth.

2nd ride (45min) checked tyre pressure and off I go,turning still doesn't feel as natural as the ninebot and have to almost plan every turn,also pushed it a little harder(for me) to around 25 kmh and there's an odd almost pendulum feeling feels a bit un-nerving as I keep thinking I'm going to face plant any second...but at this time I haven't,tried riding with the music...my thoughts on this when I had my ninebot was ..what's the point in that..poor idea...now I've tried it I love it!! Maybe it will wear off in time but at the moment it just kind of feels more relaxing and enjoyable plus it doesn't scare the cr@p out of people as I pass by as they hear it just before I get to them where as my ninebot was like a sneaky ninja I could almost ride over them before they knew I was there.

As for the high pitched whine whilst riding yes it is noticeable,especially coming from my ninjabot but it's not the worst noise and not as loud as I thought it was going to be.

?

[edwin_rm]

While we're at it, I'll add my 1st impressions as well (KS16 840wh):

-Easy to access the tire inflation valve. Tire is rated for 65 psi. So nice! High pressure riding is important for me. There is plenty of gap space between the wheel and the hole in the case where the wheel spins, unlike with my GotWay MCM4. Thank goodness!

-This thing is fast as fuck! I set my speed limiter to [0, 0, 30, 30] on the app. My maximum reached during the first ride was 32.5 kph, with an average of 25.5 kph, all real speed. It was truly exhilarating to ride so fast. Definitely felt quite significantly faster than my Gotway MCM4 while riding. King Song is legit! [and lift test cutoff was ~45 kph with tilt back enabled]

-I love the multi-colored side led lights, especially when also playing music from the bluetooth speakers (which are loud as fuck on max volume). I played some techno trance. I looked futuristic, and I sounded futuristic. Pedestrians were in shock!

-Internal temperature never reached 50C, so I didn't get to witness the cooling fan in action. Even going uphill I was able to go max speed no problem. I weight ~65 kg.

-I prefer riding in medium stiffness. Medium mode on this one is harder than the Gotway medium mode. (FYI for those of you that also like medium for comfort). I did try hard stiffness mode for a bit, but I prefer to lean (cuz it looks cool, and feels good).

-The hidden trolley handle is awesome. This is the way forward from now on. Gotway MSuper 3 will implement it as well. Every upcoming wheel worth their salt definitely should implement this.

EDIT: I ride while playing music. The bluetooth music button also activates the cooling fan. In other words, i've been riding with the fan activated (which could also explain why the machine always runs at a cool temp for me). I imagine then, that riding with music off and the fan off could help conserve battery, if ever needed.

[esaj]

Looks like I'll get to test (non-updated, v 1.15?) KS16 on Thursday, an old friend who lives in another town had just today received one from Jason, and will (likely) drop it off for me to test on thursday-evening, before coming back to collect it on Friday. If I like it, I'm likely going to pull trigger on KS16 (if I find a reseller who sells me one without batteries, @Jason McNeil? )

[DS]

9 minutes ago, esaj said:

If I like it, I'm likely going to pull trigger on KS16

...and if you fall in love, you'll forget about your conditions

[esaj]

10 minutes ago, DS said:

...and if you fall in love, you'll forget about your conditions

Might be   Mostly I'm concerned whether I'll find it too soft, secondly the (possible) mainboard overheat-issues. But likely with my weight, I doubt I could cause it to overheat (maybe with a long uphill climb). And even so, making some holes on the mainboard-compartment and fixing up "something" to prevent water splashing there should take care of that (if I buy one without batteries, I likely won't get any warranty anyway, as I have to open her up the first thing & install the packs & change the mainboard power connector to EC5).

[Jeffrey Scott Will]

I'm happy to report that I've been putting my new KS16 (840wh from @Jason McNeil) through its paces over the past couple days. Heavy downpour, prolonged hill climbing, high speed test (took it to 29kph no problem, but no need to ever go that fast again..!) - the only warnings I have triggered were my own self-defined speed warnings. For my usage, it's beastly and very very solid!

In terms of ride mode, @esaj, I have had lots of direct comparison just yesterday between Ninebot, MCM4, and Solowheel Xtreme in order to analyze the difference. I'm going to write an article about this topic because I think there is a lot of confusion in this area, but I will write a summary here: there is a difference between soft pedals and the reaction time in how quickly the wheel tries to stay directly beneath you (aka, how much it lets you lean). All wheels were set to the hardest ride mode. 

Ninebot is the "stiffest" in that the pedals stay completely flat AND fastest reaction time allowing very little lean. It makes the rider stiff as a board because the slightest adjustment causes the more sensitive ride mode to react. MCM4 has an ever so slight pedal movement but still very flat. It has a fast reaction time, but allows a little more play to push the wheel in front and behind you a little bit. Still very stiff rider movement. KS16 has completely flat/stiff pedals like ninebot, but more play beneath your feat- noticeably  moreso than MCM4. You can really lean if you want to, but again, the pedals stay stiff and flat. Rider is more engaged with movement in riding style. Then there is Solowheel Xtreme which has a very different feeling because the pedals do not stay flat and are programmed to feel springy. They stay aligned with your body as you lean. And boy can you lean- you can really throw the wheel around beneath your feet! If you watch enough videos, you can tell when someone is riding a solowheel without even seeing the wheel because of how relaxed and exaggerated movements are made with the body especially when starting and stopping.

Stiff pedal advantage: off-road, hill climbing, general unven surface, more responsive  

Soft pedal advantage: comfort over time, hard braking (pedals aligned with body "catch" you as you stop instead of introducing risk of traction loss)

Sensitive reaction timing (low/no lean) advantage: Hill climbing maybe? I can't think of many times I've ever enjoyed or felt it was necessary. Some would argue it's safer due to body angle in case of a fall, but this hasn't held true for me personally 

Slower reaction time (more lean) advantage: more relaxed rider stance, more engaging ride and options for maneuvering because of the way you can approach situations at an angle. Power braking feels more effective and confident because you can throw your body into it. 

So different wheels have different combinations of these two major factors, and IMO, KS16 strikes the best balance with among the stiffest pedals for off-road and uneven pavement stability, but also the ability to throw the wheel around a bit. It's really quite awesome. You cant really replicate it on other wheels because the softer modes mostly just soften the pedals. And not in a fun/reactive/comfortable way like solowheel. It's always some really slow linear movement, which is pointless..

Sorry for the long rant!

[Planetpapi]

Thanks, Jeffery to tryout different wheels and letting us know. With the Ninebot soft mode, I think it is 8 on the scale (or opposite end of sports mode), will it be like Solowheel Xtreme? I found this mode is best suited for my relaxed riding. Can you adjust your modes in Solowheel xtreme?

[esaj]

Some play's not that bad, but something like Firewheels "Comfortable"-mode is just... horrible to ride, in my opinion   (Pretty much) completely stiff during "normal" riding, allowing the pedal to lean backwards on strong braking would be my personal preference. But, I'll be sure to give some feedback once I get to test the actual thing (not that I could really review it, since I probably won't have but that evening to play around with it ). Since it's not mine, I'm not going to try anything more "extreme" with it though, like top speed-riding or full-on power braking...

[Jeffrey Scott Will]

1 hour ago, Planetpapi said:

Thanks, Jeffery to tryout different wheels and letting us know. With the Ninebot soft mode, I think it is 8 on the scale (or opposite end of sports mode), will it be like Solowheel Xtreme? I found this mode is best suited for my relaxed riding. Can you adjust your modes in Solowheel xtreme?

No, the ninebot cannot be adjusted to ride anything like a solowheel. The pedal softness on solowheel is totally different and much quicker to react with your body angle. It feels more loose and springy. Also, the softer modes on ninebot still retain a much faster balance reaction timing. The solowheel firmware Is unnerving at first if you're coming from something else with stiff pedals, but if you spend some time with it and allow your body/brain to adjust, you'll understand why they've done this. It's pretty awesome for optimal surface conditions. 

The newer xtremes can adjust their ride modes to one that is slightly more responsive in balance timing and slightly stiffer pedals, but it still retains a similar feel. I actually prefer the default softer mode. Especially now that I have a ks16 to satisfy those times that stiffer pedals are more optimal. 

[Jurgen]

3 hours ago, esaj said:

Some play's not that bad, but something like Firewheels "Comfortable"-mode is just... horrible to ride, in my opinion   (Pretty much) completely stiff during "normal" riding, allowing the pedal to lean backwards on strong braking would be my personal preference. But, I'll be sure to give some feedback once I get to test the actual thing (not that I could really review it, since I probably won't have but that evening to play around with it ). Since it's not mine, I'm not going to try anything more "extreme" with it though, like top speed-riding or full-on power braking...

holding back when playing is not good for you, it's better to buy a KS16 and go all the way... so you can enlighten us with your expert view

[esaj]

Lookie what I've got here:

It's been an unusually busy day, and of course, after couple of weeks of sunshine & +20 Celsius, today it's been raining constantly, it's +10C and windy... But that's not going to stop me

[esaj]

EDIT: Forgot one part of my trip, it was actually 24-25km, not 22-23km.

I did a quick 24-25km lap with the KS. Would have liked to ride even more, but even with (thin) gloves under the wristguards, my hands started feeling like freezing towards the end  Although it was something like 8-9 Celsius outside, the moist air (about 90% relative humidity), slight drizzle here and there and strong winds make it pretty chilly. 

Checking the wind data from the meteorological institute, the wind was between 4-6m/s and 8-11m/s in gusts throughout my ride. At some points, there was some really strong head-wind, yet it didn't feel like the wheel was running out of power (has happened on Firewheel riding against very strong gusts).

Was a bit anxious at start, it's been over 6 months since I've last ridden any wheel, plus I didn't have ridden a King Song ever before (my only experience still are the 14" generic, Vee's MCM2s, the Firewheel and the custom-frame with Firewheel tech). I started by doing small laps around the surrounding streets for about a kilometers worth to get the "feel" of the wheel. Then proceeded to one of my "usual" routes, because I know it well, and can then (at least a bit) better compare it with the Firewheel. Other than that, I also did stop by at the skate park for a little while along the way to test the fun boxes. No trouble there.

I compared the pedals of the KS to the pedals of the Firewheel, and they're almost exactly as long, but the King Song pedal is slightly wider (about 12cm vs. 10.5cm on FW). It felt pretty comfortable, and on the longest streak of my lap without stopping (about 10km in one go), I didn't feel my feet getting numb or such. At one point later, I had to stop for a while due to a sudden cramp in my toe (), but maybe that was just the cold or bad foot positioning. Before it cramped, I didn't feel uncomfortable standing on the pedals in any way, and it passed in about a minute, after which I didn't notice any discomfort.

The stiffness of the ride (I think it's set on the stiffest mode, is that play-mode?) was very similar to Firewheel. No noticeable "give" (ie. pedal tilting) during normal riding, maybe slightly during stronger braking (but I didn't do any real "I-MUST-STOP-NOW"-emergency power braking, just some stronger lean-back brakings at one point to get the feel). I did notice some very slight back and forth tilting when hitting smaller bumps and such, but that could also have been due to the tire, which seemed to be lower pressure than what I'm used to. As a side-note, we didn't check the pressure with my friend, but he did mention that it might be lowish and we just checked how accessible the valve is, and it seems it will be very easy to fill, the valve is bent on the side, and there's a large "cut" in the side of the shell, so you probably won't need any extensions or such to get to it. Definite plus. I did try to "stomp" a bit on the wheel while riding, and there certainly was more give than what I'm used to. Also, KS16 uses the same sized (16 x 2.125) tire as Firewheel.

Where there is difference, was the behavior when trying to accelerate out from a turn (ie. leaned to side and starting to accelerate while returning to "straight upwards" position). At first, I couldn't get the wheel to accelerate fast out from a turn, but couldn't really put my finger (or foot ) on why that was. Later on in the trip, it proved to be no problem anymore, but I'm not sure what I did differently  Guess I just "found" some technique, or maybe it was just the long pause between this and the last time I rode. Other than that, I'd say that in general the "feel" of the ride is VERY similar to Firewheel on sports-mode (which to me is just a good thing). At the end of the trip (the last couple of kilometers), it felt just like coming home with the Firewheel last year. And at that point I was also clearly riding faster than before on that trip, as that was the first time I noticed that the wheel beeped when the wind died down (I believe the settings are something like 0-0-30-30, but will have to check this), but didn't notice any tilt-back at any point. Does the beeping start before the tiltback, even if the warning & tilt-back are set for same speed? Didn't have anything to measure my speeds with, but if I'd have to take a guess, I'd say that I was riding between 20-25km/h most of the trip.

The owner of the wheel said that it was charged to about 80% (65V setting on Jasons' configurable fast charger), but he also mentioned having ridden it 10km yesterday, and I'm not 100% sure whether he said that the wheel was charged before or after that. Anyway, I checked the leds when I stopped somewhere after about maybe 8km into the trip, and the leds were showing 7 green leds. Later on (maybe around 20km point or so?) checking the leds there were 4 green leds (but that was after climbing some pretty long hills, plus the constant high winds probably ate the battery faster than normal), and then at home 3 yellow leds . So can't really tell how much battery I really used, and how long it could last (especially in more favorable conditions), but likely my Firewheel would have died towards the end of that trip with the original 264Wh packs

EDIT: Now, about an hour later, I checked the side-leds, and they now show 4 green leds.

I tested the hill climbing ability somewhat, but didn't really try to push it (I don't want to have to call my friend and tell I fried the mainboard ). Didn't notice any problems with hill climbing ability (although, keep in mind that I'm light weight).

Only slight naggings I noticed on this quick lap is that there's no way to tell the battery state from the wheel itself while riding, and that the light sensor is "too sensitive": I started my trip just when it was starting to get darker (around 10PM, although it was darker than usual any way due to the clouds & rain), and as it got slightly darker during my trip, I was riding for a good while (maybe half an hour?) so that the light was just on the "edge" of turning on and off. Passing a slight shadow from a tree, the light would turn on and then right off once I'm out of the shadow. Same with street lights a bit later as it got slightly darker: the light would turn on the slightly darker patches between the lights. At some points it was constantly flickering on and off.

The light behavior was very annoying, but if this was my wheel, I'd just tape over the light sensor to keep it constantly turned on (I like to ride with the lights on even during daytime, and actually cars are required by law to do so in Finland, it always looks odd to me when in American movies cars drive without headlights during the daytime ). Or for more "permanent" solution, if it's a light dependent resistor (LDR), it's really easy to modify the board so that the light is never on or always on (by replacing the LDR with a normal resistor with "adequate" value for either keeping it always on or always off). And on the other hand, getting the light to turn on with the wheel just by taping over the sensor is actually (for me) BETTER solution than on the Firewheel, because there the light is turned on by pressing a non-latching switch, and that can only be done once the wheel is turned on. So I always had to separately turn on the light after turning the wheel on. Also, the light isn't as bright as on the Firewheel, it doesn't illuminate nearly as well (and I think that even the Firewheels' headlight is slightly inadequate ), but that's easily fixed with a separate light (so the "main" light of the wheel is just for cars etc. to better notice and hopefully not drive over me, and the separate light would be for actually illuminating the road & surroundings when riding in dark). Oh, didn't like the spinning side leds when riding either, but they can probably be disconnected fairly easily.

For the battery-level checking, I'd add a voltage meter anyway, as that's (for me) much better solution than any percentage-based display or led bar.

All in all, this left me with a very positive image of the capabilities (even though, like I said, it's not my wheel so I didn't really push it) and the ride "feel" of the wheel. Barring any disastrous findings from other people (like frying mainboards, motor troubles etc) within the next, say, a week or so, I think my next wheel might be a KS16

[steve454]

Great review, I have always had good feelings toward Firewheel.  I have seen V73's videos training in the ice and respect the power of them, also @dmethvin has good reviews

I wish someone would send you a NinebotOne E+ to test ride.  Daytime driving lights drive a lot of people over here to distraction. Just like the 85 mph speedometer we had for like 10 years.

 

[steve454]

Forgot to mention that video where you were going real fast down some parkway on the firewheel.  Good thing you were wearing the wrist guards in case of falling off.  But seriously, arkansas has stable rock ground. I am not sure I want to faceplant there.