My s18 arrived yesterday! Impressions and suspension question.

[Rehab1]

4 hours ago, Bobby said:

I used a butane pencil torch directed at the hex holes in the bolt and this worked.

Excellent!
 

2 hours ago, Alex-l said:

Aargh! mine are super tight as well, and I don't have a torch! I used stubby wrenches but it didn't work. I might have damaged the nuts somewhat at this point. What do I do now? 

I damaged one hex bolt/nut during my rebuild and had to drill out the head. It’s fairly easy as the metal is not overly hardened. Best if you have access to a drill press.

 

2 hours ago, Alex-l said:

Is it okay to ride like this or do I really need to fix this?

You’ll be fine to ride as it sounds like your hex nut never loosened. 

Edited July 13, 2021 by Rehab1

[Rehab1]

22 hours ago, RockyTop said:

You need to make the axle perpendicular to the sliders using shims made out of cut up Coke cans.

Yes Coke cans will work. 

 

[bbulkow]

On 7/13/2021 at 2:05 PM, Alex-l said:

Aargh! mine are super tight as well, and I don't have a torch! I used stubby wrenches but it didn't work. I might have damaged the nuts somewhat at this point. What do I do now? Is it okay to ride like this or do I really need to fix this?

That's really weird that you couldn't get them off by having a wrench on each side. Hex bolts give really good connection between the wrench and the bolt, more than just about anything else (except maybe Torx). Assuming you properly seated the wrenches, assuming you used the right size (correct metric not the closest imperial), assuming you put the "short end" in the bolt and your hand on the "long end" for proper leverage, assuming you didn't tighten it. The blue locktite is "standard hand tools" tight, which is the correct locktite to use. On mine, the bolts are machined pretty fine and correctly, and that bolt was not tight at all (in a good way).

I did not find appreciable riding difference between the washers on and off, but my bolt wasn't overtightened. Overtightened, it'll create serious friction... but how much? That won't be a safety hazard other than by having less suspension than you should.

A standard propane torch works just as well as a pencil torch, it's just BE CAREFUL time because you can blister the paint off. Around here, propane torches are very cheap, like USD20. You can also buy a "culinary torch" like used for creme brulee, then you've got a torch for making desert just as much as home repairs.

Edited July 15, 2021 by bbulkow

[mrelwood]

IIRC, some bolts were very tight on @FinRider’s S18. We didn’t need to use heat, but a considerable amount of force and additional leverage nevertheless.

 Since the level of suspension being stuck varies so much between units, I don’t think it’s at all strange for some units/bolts to be way overtightened as well.

[EUC Forest]

My bolts were very tight, I stripped them when trying the washer removal (very soft metal), which succeeded on one side only. Doesn't seem to limit suspension though, so I won't try drilling them out (stainless steel replacement is also hard to find). In my (limited) understanding the washers "pull" the inside bolt from the fender, with washer removed this bolt seemed closer to the fender, so I put it back in. Perhaps if you remove the washer you need to put a flatter bolt on the inside.

[Alex-l]

 

Some update: my tire is not rubbing anymore. I think deflating and re-inflating it made the trick. The suspension is also working fine. I rode for some time with the shock locked because I thought + was unlocked. I am very satisfied with the wheel so far. Maybe I'll try removing the washers when I feel like making creme brulee and need a torch!

I did experienced the dreaded death wobbles for the first time. It was scary! Fortunately, I managed to recover and didn't crash! Since then, I am taking it slow. My max speed so far is 26mph and I seem to be more stable. I don't have the feeling of the wheel leaning on one side anymore either.

Best part is yesterday, I went to a very rocky path. On my old (cheap) mt bike, it was so uncomfortable I had to dismount. This time, I just went floating through. I really love the suspension and wouldn't buy another wheel without.

One thing I don't like about this wheel is the padding. Really, they can't make it softer and more comfortable? I feel like increasing the thickness to reduce the wobbles was a bad idea. Now, I'm wondering if the mono-customize pads would improve the comfort. Anyways, I can't spend more money at the moment so this will have to wait.

Edited July 29, 2021 by Alex-l

[Beachboy]

Yes suspension on S18 is the best right now, however if I may suggest..KS should add springs in those sliders, I think an active sliders would bring this wheel more comfy and balance. And most important thing issues related to the suspension wouldn’t be a problem anymore.

Specially if S20 really as rumoured would get bigger tyre, more batteries, 100V power, all this will add weight which current suspension system cannot deal with it.

Edited July 30, 2021 by Beachboy

[mrelwood]

2 hours ago, Beachboy said:

Yes suspension on S18 is the best right now, however if I may suggest..KS should add springs in those sliders, I think an active sliders would bring this wheel more comfy and balance. And most important thing issues related to the suspension wouldn’t be a problem anymore.

Specially if S20 really as rumoured would get bigger tyre, more batteries, 100V power, all this will add weight which current suspension system cannot deal with it.

Wouldn’t a 100 kg rider be a bigger problem for the suspension than increasing the unsuspected weight of the wheel from something like 15 kg to 20 kg?

I hadn’t heard the rumors of a bigger tire. What are we talking about here, the V11 size? MSX size? Sherman size? Or even bigger?

[Beachboy]

21 hours ago, mrelwood said:

Wouldn’t a 100 kg rider be a bigger problem for the suspension than increasing the unsuspected weight of the wheel from something like 15 kg to 20 kg?

I hadn’t heard the rumors of a bigger tire. What are we talking about here, the V11 size? MSX size? Sherman size? Or even bigger?

The S20, i heard rumour it will have 20” tire 

What I meant the current suspension system will not work as good as in S18 if its applied to S20, because the work load of the suspension reached its max already due to suspension mechanics, you can observes your S18 sliders as in time it has scratches in specific places where it contact with the casing most, its because the sliders work as a movement guide where often interfered by dirts this can cause restriction to the suspension system thats why I think KS should consider to add springs inside slider’s casing.

also the placement of suspension arms is not that precise so that its movement is not really straight vertical and ruined weight distribution which in the end effecting sliders movements too, there when more weight added, restriction became more apparent.

[mrelwood]

1 hour ago, Beachboy said:

The S20, i heard rumour it will have 20” tire

A “20” tire” is one of the most misleading values in EUCs. Usually people say 20” tire when they talk about the Sherman. The Sherman tire is a motorcycle size 2.75-14. It has a direct cross-compatibility in bicycle standard… in size 18 x 3.0. Which already is the tire size of the S18.

The imaginary specs reported by GW/BG and Veteran make all 18”, 19” and 20” tires the same size.

My V11 is an 18” EUC. It came with the exact same tire that’s on the 19” MSP, and through the last winter I rode it with the 20” Sherman tire. Sure the knobbies make it maybe half an inch taller, but it’s still an 18” tire.

 So what does the rumor about a 20” tire mean exactly?

1 hour ago, Beachboy said:

What I meant the current suspension system will not work as good as in S18 if its applied to S20, because the work load of the suspension reached its max already due to suspension mechanics, you can observes your S18 sliders as in time it has scratches in specific places where it contact with the casing most, its because the sliders work as a movement guide where often interfered by dirts this can cause restriction to the suspension system thats why I think KS should consider to add springs inside slider’s casing.

also the placement of suspension arms is not that precise so that its movement is not really straight vertical and ruined weight distribution which in the end effecting sliders movements too, there when more weight added, restriction became more apparent.

I may have a language barrier here, but I wasn’t able to follow your logic. Sorry.

 The vertical tubes are what keep the mechanism moving directly up and down. Whenever you accelerate or brake, you tilt the mechanism, and cause more pressure to the specific parts of the tubes that the tilting “sled” leans towards. Mechanical springs wouldn’t help there.

 Any dust that gets onto the tubes of course increases this wear, and springs won’t help that either.

 Then there are the widely reported issues with the S18 assembly that make especially the link mechanism very stiff to move. Various levels of modifications due to this are common. Once the link mechanism moves freely on it’s bearings (and the vertical tubes are lubed of course), people have reported very smooth behavior from the suspension. Which is no surprise. Mechanical springs wouldn’t help here either though, since the issue is in the faulty design of the assembly line.

[No1up]

On 7/9/2021 at 9:41 AM, mrelwood said:

Removing the large washers is the #1 thing to do. Do not put anything on their place, just assemble the system back up without the washers.

 If you (deflate and) remove the bottom attachment of the shock, you’ll get a good idea about how the mechanism moves up and down on it’s own. If you are in doubt whether more work would be warranted, make us a video about moving the mechanism end to end (with the shock detached) and we’ll be able to estimate better.

Remove the washers? Why? 

[PourUC]

On 7/29/2021 at 8:18 PM, Alex-l said:

 

wouldn't buy another wheel without.

 

 

This is so me. Despite all the shortcomings, and how much people call suspension useless (just bend your legs bro), it's one of those things I personally can't go without now.

I have been so tempted to pull the trigger on a faster wheel, but I want the suspension, and the implementation on the EX isn't good enough for the price imo.

[Tawpie]

22 hours ago, No1up said:

Remove the washers? Why? 

Because the washers are oversized they transfer the bolt's holding force to the gold part rather than allowing it to rest on the inner race of the bearing—which kind of defeats the purpose of the bearing. It's supposed to be able to turn easily but with that big washer the suspension is pivoting bolt-to-washer rather than gold-to-bearing-outer-race-to-bearing-inner-race. It will be 'smoother' in its travel.

[MrH]

Tip I discovered today for removing the washers:

One washer came off easy when I used a long Allen wrench with a ball arm. The other one, the ball arm could not get a strong enough grip, as it was over-tightened.

I let all the air out of the suspension and used the two Allen wrenches to disconnect the bottom of the shock from the wheel assembly and swing it up. This allowed me to use the non-ball side of both Allen wrenches and get a firm enough lock and enough torque to remove the second washer.

You just have to push down on the shock to get it back in alignment with the Allen bolt connector when reconnecting it.

This option will work for anyone who has two Allen wrenches, but not a long one with a ball arm.