FACEPLANT... ALMOST

[citiboi]

I have hoped and prayed that this will not happen to me.... BUT it has!! 

While riding my Rockwheel GR16 this afternoon, the battery suddenly shut off and I was thrown forward.  Thank god I was not riding at my usual fast speed.  Was probably traveling at about 20 kmh on a flat public road. Luckily for me too, there was no vehicle right behind me. 

I suffered mainly superficial injuries on both my palms with very slight bleeding and blisters.

This accident has debunked two myths.  Speed and remaining battery power.  I was not really riding at high speed or pushing the EUC hard and had 50% battery left.  The sad truth is that no matter how competent you are at riding the EUC, you will be injured if the EUC suddenly stalls.  For the time being, I will have this phobia about traveling at any speed faster than Airwheel.

 

 

[ToniG123]

I'm sorry about your fall and thanks for posting, it will help people realize the dangers even at slow speeds and consider wearing protection at all times.

[lizardmech]

What was the ride like before the shut off? Had you traveled far or climbed gradients? Was the air temperature warm?

[citiboi]

10 minutes ago, lizardmech said:

What was the ride like before the shut off? Had you traveled far or climbed gradients? Was the air temperature warm?

That's the scary part... there was no prior indication, sign or warning of failure whatsoever.  The battery just suddenly shut off and went dead!  The road was flat and I was not even straining my EUC before the failure or riding at anywhere near the top speed.  The ride was as smooth as could be and I had been riding on that road countless times over the past six months.  I still had 50% left in my battery.  I had pushed my EUC harder than this before without any problems.  

This is a wake up call for me.  I will look to purchase wrist guards or heavy duty gloves and will not ride fast anymore.  Incidentally, I just received my Gotway Mten yesterday!! Perhaps it is good to switch to the Mten with restricted speed of about 20kmh.  I will also abandon my plans to purchase the new MSuper.  I cannot imagine falling at 30+kmh on the MSuper.

[OliverH]

Hopefully you'll fast recover. 

The fail of your wheel is the reason why a self balanced vehicle in Germany or Switzerland need to be safety reliable. Which means to have a redundancy from battery to mainboard to motor. Technology is available (at least 3 options to build it) and needs to been integrated. We've spoken to some manufacturers but they didn't got the story. No interest in heaving a break through, get EUs legal and registered on the road. They don't see the real market.

 

[lizardmech]

That's the thing, my suspicion is that shut downs are more likely on relatively sedate commuting trips due to the way the heatsink is designed. But without a 20km/h unit to test or an idea of the type of trips people made when a shutdown occurs it's hard to know.

[Jurgen]

Just the battery indicator and speed are not telling the whole story.

My IPS Lhotz 340 (limited to 20KmH) has a good warning system: the green powerbutton light starts blinking (first slow then quick) when the battery is drained too much even at a batt level of 70%, and it starts beeping continously if the remaining power of the battery is too low for the speed you're travelling.

With my 100Kg weight, on a surface that is not so smooth, I have to slow down even if the batt is still at 55%. If I don't obey the beep, it starts to tillt the pedals pretty strongly.

So it seems the IPS is designed with an interesting algorithm and a good safety margin.

[dmethvin]

Sorry to hear about your accident @citiboi. A pair of gloves is a good idea. In both of my big falls I've hit the palms of my hands but I was wearing these gloves:

http://www.aliexpress.com/item/gloves/605126891.html

I got a couple of small scrapes on my exposed fingers but otherwise I was good. Also the bright color makes it easier for people to see you when you signal.

[diggory 456]

Not trying to start any 'hate' here for a particular brand, but isn't Rockwheel one of the worst offenders for cutouts?

is it just with a specific model?

 

[OliverH]

45 minutes ago, Jurgen said:

Just the battery indicator and speed are not telling the whole story.

My IPS Lhotz 340 (limited to 20KmH) has a good warning system: the green powerbutton light starts blinking (first slow then quick) when the battery is drained too much even at a batt level of 70%, and it starts beeping continously if the remaining power of the battery is too low for the speed you're travelling.

With my 100Kg weight, on a surface that is not so smooth, I have to slow down even if the batt is still at 55%. If I don't obey the beep, it starts to tillt the pedals pretty strongly.

So it seems the IPS is designed with an interesting algorithm and a good safety margin.

My IPS T350 is acting very similar. But when overheating with my 100+ kg on slopes it gives you sometime a beeping and if don't let it cool down long enough and go ahead it suddenly blocks with no warning. I "love" this IPS I did one time a faceplant in the forrest. It took 4 weeks that I could sleep again with no problems and not let be saying Ooouuuch.

So it looks like they improved a lot with the latest model.

7 minutes ago, Paddylaz said:

Not trying to start any 'hate' here for a particular brand, but isn't Rockwheel one of the worst offenders for cutouts?

is it just with a specific model?

 

I heard this on some occassions. Like Gotway if you ignore the last warning.

[citiboi]

Thanks everyone for the show of concern and kind words and advise.

@Paddylaz I bought the Rockwheel GR16 without doing much research. Back then, EUCs were still new and I didn't have much knowledge. I was attracted to its comparatively light weight, speed and nice looks. On hindsight, I will not recommend this or any other geared EUCs. Rockwheel has fallen way behind in sales and popularity. However, I do not think that battery shut off is peculiar to any brand. The wise thing to do is to wear full protection and ride at manageable speeds. Battery shut off can happen at any speed, load and percentage of remaining battery power.

@dmethvin I used to inline skate and had very good Salomon wrist guards. Unfortunately, I do not have them with me now and unable to buy them in Thailand. Thanks for the link for gloves.

[diggory 456]

2 hours ago, citiboi said:

This is a wake up call for me.  I will look to purchase wrist guards or heavy duty gloves

I strongly recommend 'Triple 8 Hired Hands.' If you can find them in a shop or Amazon. They're my favourite. It's a combo of a glove and a double wrist splint (which is removable).

They're sizes are a bit weird (I have small hands and large fit me very snugly) but I love them. ?

[Mono]

3 hours ago, OliverH said:

Hopefully you'll fast recover. 

The fail of your wheel is the reason why a self balanced vehicle in Germany or Switzerland need to be safety reliable. Which means to have a redundancy from battery to mainboard to motor. Technology is available (at least 3 options to build it) and needs to been integrated. We've spoken to some manufacturers but they didn't got the story. No interest in heaving a break through, get EUs legal and registered on the road. They don't see the real market.

I have my doubts that redundancy is the most effective path to more reliability of EUCs for quite some time to come. Maybe manufacturers have the same doubts too. 

[Mono]

4 hours ago, citiboi said:

I have hoped and prayed that this will not happen to me.... BUT it has!! 

While riding my Rockwheel GR16 this afternoon, the battery suddenly shut off and I was thrown forward.  Thank god I was not riding at my usual fast speed.  Was probably traveling at about 20 kmh on a flat public road. Luckily for me too, there was no vehicle right behind me. 

I suffered mainly superficial injuries on both my palms with very slight bleeding and blisters.

This accident has debunked two myths.  Speed and remaining battery power.  I was not really riding at high speed or pushing the EUC hard and had 50% battery left.  

 

Depending on your battery size, 50% is quite far away from 80%, power-wise. I have nominal 340Wh and the wheel is notably less strong at 50% battery level, incomparable to the situation at 80%. That certainly doesn't excuse a sudden shut down. 

[OliverH]

2 minutes ago, Niko said:

I have my doubts that redundancy is the most effective path to more reliability of EUCs for quite some time to come. Maybe manufacturers have the same doubts too. 

They've doubt about. They said it's not possible

They like to make their products/ boards more safe (handle more current). Not bad, but they should also test their products in a way we ride it. You can blow up Mosfets while doing hard brakes, BMS doing power cuts while they initially are developed for bicycles. Most EUs have not enough behaviour handling by today. This products are in early stages and we should ride them 30-40 km/h? Safety is not really a concern today. If the package is right defined and tested than redundancy is the right way as this is a must getting approvals over here. Redundancy will not cover you if one system fails and the second fails for the same reason. But there're solutions on the right path.

Ask a manufacturer what's the definition of safety and you'll get interesting answers.

[Kells]

I moved onto the EUC after a couple very painful cut-outs on the 2 wheel off road segway style scooter so I have an inherent fear of going faster than I can run-off...  I can say that I feel much more comfortable traveling on the 1 wheel even though I'm not as comfortable turning yet.  I did purchase the Triple 8 wrist guards and their rubber helmet to minimize damage.  Reading your story, and the others on here about the "cut out" is just confirming my worst fear and it reminds me to wear the gear.  Btw, I have the new LHOTZ / IPS191 340wh and i'm reading that this is a very safe option (I hope).

I'm glad to see you weren't hurt too badly.  

 

[Mono]

2 minutes ago, OliverH said:

This products are in early stages and we should ride them 30-40 km/h?

No, we shouldn't.

[OliverH]

1 hour ago, Kells said:

I moved onto the EUC after a couple very painful cut-outs on the 2 wheel off road segway style scooter so I have an inherent fear of going faster than I can run-off...  I can say that I feel much more comfortable traveling on the 1 wheel even though I'm not as comfortable turning yet.  I did purchase the Triple 8 wrist guards and their rubber helmet to minimize damage.  Reading your story, and the others on here about the "cut out" is just confirming my worst fear and it reminds me to wear the gear.  Btw, I have the new LHOTZ / IPS191 340wh and i'm reading that this is a very safe option (I hope).

I'm glad to see you weren't hurt too badly.  

 

The IPS has a strong motor (800 W basepower) but only a single battery. So you'll faster see a voltage drop as on a Kingsong/ Gotway or Firewheel. I'm riding an old IPS with a 340 Wh battery and you can force it very fast from green, to green blinking to slow red blinking. Takes me 300 m slope out of my town. Battery recovers after some meters on top of the hill/ end if the slope. With a double battery pack and 680 Wh you've more capacity and see at a later point the voltage drop. So having as much Wh as possible could be better.

[Jurgen]

2 hours ago, Niko said:

 

Depending on your battery size, 50% is quite far away from 80%, power-wise. I have nominal 340Wh and the wheel is notably less strong at 50% battery level, incomparable to the situation at 80%. That certainly doesn't excuse a sudden shut down. 

With my Lhotz 340 if start to feel a dip in torque below 80%, at 50% it's slow and much more unstable

1 hour ago, OliverH said:

The IPS has a strong motor (800 W basepower) but only a single battery. So you'll faster see a voltage drop as on a Kingsong/ Gotway or Firewheel. I'm riding an old IPS with a 340 Wh battery and you can force it very fast from green, to green blinking to slow red blinking. Takes me 300 m slope out of my town. Battery recovers after some meters on top of the hill/ end if the slope. With a double battery pack and 680 Wh you've more capacity and see at a later point the voltage drop. So having as much Wh as possible could be better.

yes indeed, that's why I'm thinking about buying an IPS152

[musk]

What speed do we generally consider "slow"?   20kph is fast, way faster than most people run imho.

A comfortable running speed can be estimated by looking at how fast (healthy) people run on treadmills.  I think a fair value is 12km/hr for an average person.  Critically, falling off an EUC (due to cutout) is something a person isn't likely to be prepared for so they'll need to accellerate instantly to running speed from a dead stop. 

For the health of the community, we should start phrasing "low speed" and "high speed" in a more thoughtful way so that riders can learn to think about their speed in a useful way.  The physical speed capability of a wheel is irrelevant to the human impact that speed has, so just because a wheel can spin at 40km/hr, that does not make 20km/hr "slow".

[Jurgen]

2 hours ago, Kells said:

I moved onto the EUC after a couple very painful cut-outs on the 2 wheel off road segway style scooter so I have an inherent fear of going faster than I can run-off...  I can say that I feel much more comfortable traveling on the 1 wheel even though I'm not as comfortable turning yet.  I did purchase the Triple 8 wrist guards and their rubber helmet to minimize damage.  Reading your story, and the others on here about the "cut out" is just confirming my worst fear and it reminds me to wear the gear.  Btw, I have the new LHOTZ / IPS191 340wh and i'm reading that this is a very safe option (I hope).

I'm glad to see you weren't hurt too badly.  

 

The Lhotz will give you a lot of warnings, except if you overtorque it (f.ex. try to accelerate too fast), then it will block and throw you off.

[Jurgen]

15 minutes ago, musk said:

What speed do we generally consider "slow"?   20kph is fast, way faster than most people run imho.

A comfortable running speed can be estimated by looking at how fast (healthy) people run on treadmills.  I think a fair value is 12km/hr for an average person.  Critically, falling off an EUC (due to cutout) is something a person isn't likely to be prepared for so they'll need to accellerate instantly to running speed from a dead stop. 

For the health of the community, we should start phrasing "low speed" and "high speed" in a more thoughtful way so that riders can learn to think about their speed in a useful way.  The physical speed capability of a wheel is irrelevant to the human impact that speed has, so just because a wheel can spin at 40km/hr, that does not make 20km/hr "slow".

fully agree, in Belgium you're allowed on the sidewalk up to 8KmH, electrical wheelchair are allowed to go up 18KmH, biking lanes are allowed up to 25KmH

Above 25KmH you need an insurance like a motorbike.

So what about this rating: up to 8 low, up 16 moderate, up 24 high, up to 32 very high, above 32 extreme ?

[musk]

37 minutes ago, Jurgen said:

fully agree, in Belgium you're allowed on the sidewalk up to 8KmH, electrical wheelchair are allowed to go up 18KmH, biking lanes are allowed up to 25KmH

Above 25KmH you need an insurance like a motorbike.

So what about this rating: up to 8 low, up 16 moderate, up 24 high, up to 32 very high, above 32 extreme ?

This is a step in the right direction, though we could consider thinking in terms of recoverability.  For example:

8km/hr - Feet Recovery easy.

12km/hr - Feet Recovery difficult.  (You might go down. Are your wrists and fingers ready for this?)

24km/hr - Feet Recovery not possible.

 

The speed numbers are placeholder and debateable.

 

[diggory 456]

It's a sensitive topic to approach, but let's be honest, recovery at each of these various speeds is hugely dependant on your age and physical condition.

 

[Colestien]

  When you look at the physical part of riding a wheel, the over lean can never be completely fixed.  If you have a very good wheel  and over lean a little the wheel goes under you an counters the lean.  The best that could ever be built would respond fast and have enough mass/power to press under you quickly.    Think of it this way: If you decided you wanted to "belly flop" .  What would it take in power, control reaction time, traction/mass of a Wheel to keep you upright.   The mass/weight of a wheel would (depending on traction) have to be more than the leaning weight to recover.  I'm a little over 100kg.  That is a lot of mass to "press through"

@citiboi Sorry I once again started rambling and i didn't say the right thing...... Sorry you were hurt, I hope it heals quick.  Thank you for sharing, it really does help the sport.  I always seem to focus on the tech.......