Incredibly bad look for this community.

[Camenbert]

2 hours ago, Roadpower said:

One is what you are fearing as a EUC rider, the fear of being hurt. Okay but you also must be responsible and fear for those you may inflict harm upon

I was about statistics.
How many EUC rider death versus death due by EUC riders?

[winterwheel]

4 hours ago, Unventor said:

4 hours ago, GPW said:

Ok so if we are taking this literally - then the hope would be if this race was run again you would want them to not wear helmets or other gear so that in addition to looking reckless by behavior they also set a bad example by not wearing safety gear. And then on top of that, if something did go wrong, you would want increase the chances of the rider getting harmed while doing nothing to reduce the risk to others with the hope that is teaches them a lesson? This doesn't seem productive to me. 

Expand  

I bet you they will not ride as reckless and fast.

Lol, this is why I don't wear gear and nobody wants to hear it. I ride safer when I feel less safe.

[winterwheel]

I like the movie discussion...I was thinking thus morning that if producers offered to include EUC chase scenes in the next Mission Impossible movie, people here would likely picket any venue with the temerity to show it, on the off chance wheels might end up getting banned in New Zealand.

[Unventor]

2 hours ago, /Dev/Null said:

I just left Chicago EUC Facebook group for this exact behavior.  "Large" ride with 30+ people just ignoring all traffic signals.  I don't want to be associated with them.

People might call me nagging or what they want. 

But I really like your principle here. I wish more would that this adult standpoint. 

Now some might be in the denial that bans will not happen. But all it take is a few bad press incidents and some politicians can make cheap poibt to issue a ban.  Since we are a small group in a much bigger world none is going to speak up for us riders that understand what is okey or not in public traffic. 

I currently have wheels and gear that I paied more than 10.000€ that I will have little use for should a ban be issued. 

To those tgat ride for fun. That is all good. But a "few" of us ride also necause of other reasons. My 2 top reasons in yhis order:

1) It helps me medically due to rheumatic diagnoses

2) In tge city I lice it is iften mot convenient to use a car. Because of above reason bicycles or ebike is out of the question too. 

So for some to take this lighthearted as without care, I speak up as it is in tge end quality of life to me I am talking about. 

And end a ban kicks in it will spread. And even if we are not talking full ban, should police start to enforce rules more no modern EUC would be any use in Europe. 

The problems in traffic is very real here. So much that e.g. In Denmark they passed a law this spring. In short and roughly translated if you or someone you lend your car to drives the car in an "insane manner" (lot if specefics examples what tjis means is writen in the law)  then you will loose your car. And in court you can argue your case, but once you cross a certain line, the laws hammer hit hard. 

Last week a woman lost her new car (mazda cx-3) due to her boyfriends behaviour while driving. She had just taken a load of around 25.000€. Now she has a load and no car to show. 

It might not be an EUC but once it is a big enough problem to score cheap political points politicians will cash in on this. 

@Scottie888 so if you call this preaching. Please read this one more time and have a think about it just a moment. 

I still think that we as a community have a much better way if we together say riding EUCs do not mean we are the worst behaving group in traffic with disregard to anyone around us. 

I think it is very simple how would you feel driving a car and some idiot did something stupid that you couldn't avoid and ended killing the person or being pedestrian that got knocked over because thrre was no eay for you to anticipate someone would not ride with near limits of the traffic laws that apply to all. 

[PLEASE_DELETE]

27 minutes ago, winterwheel said:

I like the movie discussion...I was thinking thus morning that if producers offered to include EUC chase scenes in the next Mission Impossible movie, people here would likely picket any venue with the temerity to show it, on the off chance wheels might end up getting banned in New Zealand.

I don't think that is an honest take, really.  Many of us watch movies, and know that FICTION is different than NON-FICTION and hollywood movies like MI are obviously fiction.  Nobody calls for movies with shooting (most of them in the US, TBH) to be banned, because people know that is NOT REAL LIFE.  I can't see why it would be any different with an EUC in a movie vs violence/shooting in a movie.

[Skeptikos]

3 hours ago, Roadpower said:

(3) Racing in the streets in a very busy urban area: This must not be done, it doesn't matter the vehicle is. We would not accept it for any other vehicle type for obvious reasons. Just because a EUC is about as small as it gets, is not loophole or excuse for racing in busy urban streets. It's not acceptable. Can and should races be organized in appropriate venues or sectioned off areas or even perhaps at times and places where it is impossible to harm anyone else (including property), then yeah I am not going to stridently object to that.

 

1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

Exactly, well put! Imagine we were a community of motorcycle riders that generally behave well in traffic. A motorcycle Alleycat race wouldn’t even fuel a two sided debate, as it would be so obviously out of line.

No, this is a legitimate point of disagreement. Alleycat bicycle races are fine as far as quite a few people are concerned. I'm basically fine with those, though I agree it's pushing the limits in terms of recklessness and I wouldn't want someone to ride their bike like that every day.

A motorcycle alleycat race is a bad idea for obvious reasons.

So EUC alleycat races are sitting somewhere along this spectrum between acceptable, occasional fun bicycle recklessness, and dangerous motorcycle menacing. It's really not obvious to me where EUC races lie along the spectrum, though comparisons with motorcycles are obviously overblown.

Clearly the organizers think this is more like a bicycle alleycat race. I don't think it's obvious that they're wrong.

I think most of the people in this thread taking a hard position one way or the other are trying to sweep this ambiguity under the rug. I think at this point in time it's genuinely unclear how dangerous a race like this is because we have very little past experience with events or riding like this. (And maybe NYC riders have more experience in that regard and it just hasn't been totally conveyed to the rest of us.)

[Paul A]

If a rider collides with a $350k Ferrari, who is liable for the damages?  The rider or the organizers?

If a rider collides and kills a child, who is liable for prosecution by the district attorney?  Who is going to jail, the rider or the organizers?

Are the organizers willing to accept legal liability in writing?

[Scottie888]

3 hours ago, Unventor said:

so if you call this preaching. Please read this one more time and have a think about it just a moment. 

I'm no where saying you are preaching but just that it can easily be interpreted as such. There's no argument from me on the stupidity, recklessness & danger of street racing on any type of vehicle.

I'll grant its likely me but I feel this is local law enforcement issue. Vid's on YT so if the local Law does not deem it important to invest time & effort in investigating this 'terrible outrage', I feel its not up to me nor anyone else to judge. Perhaps those affected & outraged locally might wanna snitch to the Man. For those who fear that an event occurring in another country will affect them, all I can say is go clobber your local bureaucrats instead.

Its my impression that the force of selective outrage here is strong. If the outrage is due to public safety, then I don't see similar outrage for other reckless & dangerous activities. I've even given some eg's but it would seem they aren't pertinent & don't matter. If the standard's 'I don't care if it don't affect me' then this standard can also be applied universally. The NY crew can also profess not to care what others think or feel bcos it don't affect them personally. You know, what's good for goose & gander thangy.

If the standard's 'It might hurt others' so it must stop, then we also have to apply it universally. If others feel someone might hurt others, then they have the same right to stop that too. Incl speech. So then if I feel your speech might hurt me, then is it ok for me to cancel you. Just asking cos ... you know, the goose & gander thing. Otherwise, some might feel that besides the seemingly unfairness, its might also seem hypocritical & self serving.

I've been to countries where the locals eat cats & dogs. No bonus points for guessing where they'd tell me to stuff myself if I tell them I'm outraged by their choice of cuisine. I can also see the benefits of telling a heroin addict how bad & terrible their addiction is as I'd just as likely get a knife in the gut if not laughed off & mugged. Or how bout going down to Guatemala & telling the local MS-13 crew that I'm outraged by their lifestyle cos you know, killing & hurting ppl & generally being a criminal is bad.

I'm not saying we can't or shouldn't discuss things & events. All's I'm saying is what you're saying - 'think about it for just a moment'. It's not just my pov or your pov but that everyone has a pov.

Pardon my 2nd rant here but I submit my excuse is I do have the best of intentions too.

[Lex Smith]

9 hours ago, GPW said:

While I would share in the hope that everyone riding EUCs everywhere behaves responsibly, I am a bit pessimistic that is a realistic expectation. EUCs and PEVs are new and as adoption grows there will be growing pains, including those pushing the limits. I think the better hope than consistent universal good behavior is that some regions do a good job adapting, setting a positive example of how to regulate in a way that is reasonable and appropriate while accepting progress. Started a separate thread along these lines, and with your experience in gov't you might have insight - What does good euc/pev regulation look like? More productive than "gonna get us banned"

I worked on the enforcement side and the policy makers NEVER asked for any input from staff working on the coal face so not sure as my insight extends beyond just how poor the decision making process can be but I will keep an eye on the thread and contribute if I feel I have something worthwhile to add.  I was in government work for ten years until finally the lunacy drove me out :-)

<Off Topic>

This is off topic but just to illustrate how 'clever' our experts are in NZ, we have a massive problem with feral rabbits destroying pasture land.  The Ministry of Primary Industries in their wisdom decided to import the latest variant of Calicivirus to cull the rabbits.  I think at this point they referred to Warner Brothers to research how best to distribute the virus.  Bugs Bunny eats carrots so obviously carrots were the answer.  They did a massive air drop at HUGE expense across the South Island of New Zealand of chopped carrots laced with the virus.  We're talking tons and tons of carrots.  Unfortunately carrots aren't part of the natural diet of wild rabbits so the majority of them simply ignored this tasty treat.  A few inquisitive rabbits did try them.  Enough that the rabbit community then developed resistance to the new strain of virus.  Had just one of the 'experts' at MPI done a simple search on Google re wild rabbit eating habits this amazing waste of time, money and opportunity could have been avoided.

[Roadpower]

8 hours ago, Scottie888 said:

Its my impression that the force of selective outrage here is strong. If the outrage is due to public safety, then I don't see similar outrage for other reckless & dangerous activities.

It may seem selective but this forum is centered around a particular device and not around a larger societal element so you are inherently not going to see noise made about that larger societal element until our particular device is involved. Or at least this seems apparent in my understanding. Since I happen to be a resident of NYC I can attempt to paint a wider picture, or at least my view of it.

The tricky part for me here is that I have a fairly long history with NYC at this point, this is tricky because it gets into politics that I know are best avoided as much as possible. I'm going to keep it vague enough so that any given political camp doesn't feel as though they are being spot lighted in an overtly negative way. I've lived through and been a pretty keen observer of patterns that have played themselves out over five decades now. Obviously I did not start out keenly observing but I do have a functional memory that allows me to piece together recognizable patterns. ...

It is no secret that at this time NYC is ... experiencing the kind of statistics that nobody wants on their resume. These are the kind of statistics that usually lead to wide scale changes in sentiment and those sentiments lead to sea changes in political contests, usually but not always. Why changes don't happen when sentiments change is another discussion that I will refrain from opining on at this time.

NYC is having issues that have been seen and denounced in the past, and have led to changes. Right now I imagine that there are quite a few NYC residents who have regret about certain choices that they or others have made. Choices which lead to predictable outcomes, outcomes being a statistically recognizable pattern. When groups of people do certain things in public that contribute to a general atmosphere that is .. not exactly appreciated, and this thing is a new issue, the new issue gets some attention because the other known issues have already been complained about and in our (NYC) case been failed to be addressed or only given lip service. So a new issue is seen as heaping one more thing on the pile and this instigates complaints.

Granted that at some point people people may give up complaining altogether but that is usually a signal that people have already consigned themselves to the environment or moving away from it (something that is actually also happening to NYC..).

(edit: cleaned up typos and grammar)

Edited June 14, 2021 by Roadpower

[Scottie888]

15 minutes ago, Roadpower said:

It may seem selective but this forum is centered around a particular device and not around a larger societal element so you are inherently not going to see noise made about that larger societal element until our particular device is involved.

I get that. All's I'm trying to say is that if we want others to respect & somewhat accept our povs, we too must respect others & yes, somewhat accept their povs even if we vehemently disagree & yes, even if its legally & morally wrong.

We all live in our own bubble & have our povs. End of the day, we get to choose our preferred lifestyles so long as we understand we have to face the consequences of our actions. Emphasis is 'our choice & our consequences of our actions'. Others from who knows where (or perhaps who cares where) can express their opinions cos you know, free speech & all. However IMO, repeated pushing & enforcement of our povs isn't very helpful.

Just cos the presumption that it might be dangerous & might hurt others is exactly that however we highly we feel it possible. In this particular Alleycat event, no one got hurt. That's fact. If some one did, then its up to the local law enforcement & the perp will face the consequence. Maybe then the lesson will be learnt but its morbid & disturbing to wish that, to me at least. Until then, its their choice & their right of choice.

[NickNonsense]

@evX_Mick attitude has been disgusting through all this with his replies. Glad to have unsubbed from his videos and podcasts. 

Shown your true colours the last couple of days. Not the kind of ambassador I would like at the forefront of this niche hobby.

Edited June 14, 2021 by NickNonsense

[FinRider]

6 hours ago, Scottie888 said:

Its my impression that the force of selective outrage here is strong. If the outrage is due to public safety, then I don't see similar outrage for other reckless & dangerous activities. I've even given some eg's but it would seem they aren't pertinent & don't matter. If the standard's 'I don't care if it don't affect me' then this standard can also be applied universally. The NY crew can also profess not to care what others think or feel bcos it don't affect them personally. You know, what's good for goose & gander thangy.

Wow, this may be the most polarizing topic on this forum since the "V11 vs S18 - which one is better" discussion.

I think it is time for everyone who condemns this "race event" to get of their high horses. Most are probably not concerned about the public safety of the pedestrians in NY. My suspicion is that this is not abnormal behavior for them... they ride like this every single day.

It is fear that behavior like this (when made public) will get EUCs banned for you in your local area. You can be disgusted and judgmental, but my $0.02 are that it will have no effect whatsoever, not on how they ride or how EUC's will be looked at in your local community.

 

[Leucistic]

In my group others ride much faster than they should with everything with wheels. They ride like no tomorrow with little experience. Not looking ahead, cutting people off, shouting each other and to road users. Even crying is not rare. I get so much shit from them that I totally now want to ride more by my self. Yesterday we had confrontation with cyclist and all I could say to him was "Sorry man" and he replied that "You should use leach with children like that". On the positive side I have more thick skin now from all the rant I get.

[winterwheel]

The wheel genie is out of the bottle and it isn't going back in, no matter what anybody does.

 

 

[Chriull]

1 hour ago, FinRider said:

think it is time for everyone who condemns this "race event" to get of their high horses.

Interesting pov to call standing up against (disrespectful, asocial and) willfully endangering others sitting on the high horse...

2 hours ago, FinRider said:

that it will have no effect whatsoever, not on how they ride or how EUC's will be looked at in your local community.

Yes. Most likely.

But one does not need to praise their bs behaviour published on youtube.

Or sponsor their events.

Or has to pity them, as they have to behave like this cause they live in such a bad city.

 

[winterwheel]

12 hours ago, /Dev/Null said:

I don't think that is an honest take, really.  Many of us watch movies, and know that FICTION is different than NON-FICTION and hollywood movies like MI are obviously fiction.  Nobody calls for movies with shooting (most of them in the US, TBH) to be banned, because people know that is NOT REAL LIFE.  I can't see why it would be any different with an EUC in a movie vs violence/shooting in a movie.

The premise here for much of this discussion is that legislators will see the possibility of bad behavior and legislate accordingly, without looking any deeper to the actual reality of the situation.

"Wheels can do that? Ban them!" Seems to be the prediction for how law-makers will react.

The safety of it being fiction only applies if the wheels were presented as doing something they cannot actually do. 

 

[Camenbert]

I use EUC as an utilitarian tool. I ride safely at about 20 kph (maybe I'm getting old).
By Safely I mean the wheel is far from it's limits at that speed for the masses.

I dont like hooliganism but I'm grateful to everyone who push the limits, buy every year a new wheel to gain few kph, had the cut-off still, unfortunately saw their wheel burn, etc..

Let's face it, It's because of them we have better wheels, able to take the abuse, then safe for the average Joe.
For me the proof is in that video, no one fall, no one had reliable issue, no one had accident.
About avoiding a ban, these fact count.

If we all were following the rules of some, or if I was, by default, the most extreme rider,
V5F would be the best wheel on the market. Thanks no!

 

Edited June 14, 2021 by Camenbert

[Scottie888]

3 hours ago, FinRider said:

I think it is time for everyone who condemns this "race event" to get of their high horses. Most are probably not concerned about the public safety of the pedestrians in NY. My suspicion is that this is not abnormal behavior for them... they ride like this every single day.

It is fear that behavior like this (when made public) will get EUCs banned for you in your local area. You can be disgusted and judgmental, but my $0.02 are that it will have no effect whatsoever, not on how they ride or how EUC's will be looked at in your local community.

Unfortunately ya, you nailed it. Lets not talked about evx in particular (cos he's now so bad & hateful...just kiddin Mikey) but watch any or most of the other NY YT influencer's vids. All's I can say is I don't ride like that. Mainly cos my local law enforcement won't let me get away with it & cos I'm scared of the fast(er) multi ton steel wrecking balls around me.

But they do. And a lil voice tells me that what's on vids are already scrubbed clean. It is what it is. Others can judge & even puke but that's a personal choice.

Just like it can be for others to tell the Finns to stop speaking Finnish but instead learn & speak English or Spanish or even Mandarin as their 1st language instead. As disgusted Finns ask why - cos billions ppl speak English, Mandarin & Spanish. Each individually. 5+ million or so speak Finnish. Do the math & one can easily come to the logical conclusion.

Is there even a doubt the world would be a better place if everyone speak the same language. I wonder as a Finn, would you listen. Would your countrymen listen. I know its not exactly the same thing & I get that. Which is why personally, I'm not asking anyone to speak English & only English.

But I hope you get where I'm going with this argument. Trying to judge or worse, dictate what others do in a different country with different culture & whatever else is a deep rabbit hole. One should get off their high horse & think very carefully before jumping in.

[Tasku]

Well video is now gone.
This "tragic event" that we were not part taking yet saw edited version of, is now gone.
(Funny) How the other video, that we all saw before this one, remember that one? Was not edited same way, did not push our buttons the same way?
Maybe I have to pick up knitting..

That's it then, or hold up..

 

New race idea!

"Who drives the slowest, yet not fall", Go Go Go.. or you know , *tilt *tilt *tilt around you go.

Winner shall gain: Right To Wear Snail Antennas Of Own Making. 

Cannot wait to read the comments about the style of the winner, this will be something worth waiting for.

Some rules are a must have:

Should this person run over ants or such or break any traffic laws, he/she shall be disqualified.
Maybe disqualify too, if random walking person for any reason are close proximity.

Definitely disqualify if someone shouts in general direction of competitor.
Any kind of expression in facial muscles should also be forbidden as who knows how anyone could interpret such.

Can't wait to see how slow people can go.

 

FYi:  During editing this comment I removed multiple exclamation ('!') marks. This was deliberate. There is one but I left it there, just to see if it is "O-KAY". I also used emotes, I am not sorry. If emotes will be taken away from me or others because I used many emotes in single post, I could end up picking up knitting hobby.

Have a good day.

 

Love and peace

[Mike Sacristan]

Wow... I just read through all of this while eating a huge bowl of chicken wings and remembering that I used to be married to a vegan.

I got a feeling of deja vu.

Thanks Scottie for your very sensible and charitable comments and points of view.

[dieterGRAMS]

Jesus Christ. You guys spent all weekend talking about this? Meanwhile, NYC riders prolly made a good $500+ on UberEats riding the exact same way they did in the alleycat, just as we always do.

Not me, I was partying. But be sure to email Uber your gripes. Better yet, challenge yourselves and get a life. We'd all love to see that. 

[Scottie888]

1 hour ago, dieterGRAMS said:

I was partying. But be sure to email Uber your gripes. Better yet, challenge yourselves and get a life. We'd all love to see that. 

I wish we could do similar. My city is still in lockdown mode. Parties off except family members max of 5. Getting on the wheels is one of the few things we can get away without masks. No lockdowns on internet, yet.

Sad I know but as we Canucks like to say....C'est La Vie

[Sumako]

1 hour ago, dieterGRAMS said:

Jesus Christ. You guys spent all weekend talking about this? Meanwhile, NYC riders prolly made a good $500+ on UberEats riding the exact same way they did in the alleycat, just as we always do.

Not me, I was partying. But be sure to email Uber your gripes. Better yet, challenge yourselves and get a life. We'd all love to see that. 

@dieterGRAMS Nailed it! 100% agree.

[Roadpower]

3 hours ago, dieterGRAMS said:

Jesus Christ. You guys spent all weekend talking about this? Meanwhile, NYC riders prolly made a good $500+ on UberEats riding the exact same way they did in the alleycat, just as we always do.

Since I'm on the streets of NYC daily I happen to see many delivery people. Funny thing is that I never see delivery people screaming at people to get out of their way while they are speeding through red lights.