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Stopped by police today.....

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Ok I hear you.

 

But are you sure they said you can't use the EU at all or just not allowed to use it on the road?

 

I was advised NOT to use it in the city of Rotterdajm on the street.

(Next time, if another officer sees you, you might get a fine...)

 

Strangely enough, when I told them that I use the Solowheel to go to work in another city, the office just said that I then should use it only there...)

So today, I went to work as usual and rode the last 3 km to work from my car to the office building as I have done for the past 10 months :)

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I was advised NOT to use it in the city of Rotterdajm on the street.

(Next time, if another officer sees you, you might get a fine...)

 

Strangely enough, when I told them that I use the Solowheel to go to work in another city, the office just said that I then should use it only there...)

So today, I went to work as usual and rode the last 3 km to work from my car to the office building as I have done for the past 10 months :)

 

That really doesn't make much sense that you can ride it in one city but not in another.

 

I like how they used the "You might get a fine" as in you might develop leprosy from riding the EU especially because they also acknowledge it is a grey area without clear define regulation.

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Be warned! In Switzerland, the EU will be classed as a motorized vehicle from june 1st 2015 on and the  vehicle has to be registered. Therefore it has to comply to defined rules. The EU is treated equally to a Segway. 

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Be warned! In Switzerland, the EU will be classed as a motorized vehicle from june 1st 2015 on and the  vehicle has to be registered. Therefore it has to comply to defined rules. The EU is treated equally to a Segway. 

 

Thanks for the update.

So Switzerland is another country where the EU will be basically outruled by lawmakers who have no idea what they are dealing with.

Do e-bikes need to be registered in Switzerland also??

 

Basically that would mean that from June 1st, alle EU's in Switzerland have become illegal devices?

Does this mean they will need a license plate of some kind? And probably an insurance as well?

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In the USA the legal system is based off the concept of "That which is not prohibited is permitted"  so while you could get a fine because some idiotic cop doesn't know what he's talking about, it would be fairly easy to win in court.  Without a legal definition that fits, no law applies.   The downside to this is, lawyer fees to fight a fine in court could easily cost more then the EU cost to buy if a cop decides to fine you. =/

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In the USA the legal system is based off the concept of "That which is not prohibited is permitted"  so while you could get a fine because some idiotic cop doesn't know what he's talking about, it would be fairly easy to win in court.  Without a legal definition that fits, no law applies.   The downside to this is, lawyer fees to fight a fine in court could easily cost more then the EU cost to buy if a cop decides to fine you. =/

 

Well I agree with you, that's how it should work.

The problem is, as mentioned above, in the definition as stated in the law. Probably, because lawmakers at the time, thought they would catch every possible form of motorized transport in one single sentence. Which, in fact, they did.

However, it is silly to think than an EU should fall in the same class of vehicle as a standard car or bus.

 

The current law is a bit like this:

- Any floating object you can use to transport yourself or others is a boat

- Therefore, a freshly cut log of wood that you can sit on in the water is by definition a boat.

- And as a boat is should have a serial number, navigation lights etc. etc. etc.

- Therefore, sitting on a log in the water and peddeling by hand is illegal because you don't comply to the rules....

- So you get a fine....  :(   :angry:

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Well I agree with you, that's how it should work.

The problem is, as mentioned above, in the definition as stated in the law. Probably, because lawmakers at the time, thought they would catch every possible form of motorized transport in one single sentence. Which, in fact, they did.

However, it is silly to think than an EU should fall in the same class of vehicle as a standard car or bus.

The current law is a bit like this:

- Any floating object you can use to transport yourself or others is a boat

- Therefore, a freshly cut log of wood that you can sit on in the water is by definition a boat.

- And as a boat is should have a serial number, navigation lights etc. etc. etc.

- Therefore, sitting on a log in the water and peddeling by hand is illegal because you don't comply to the rules....

- So you get a fine.... :(:angry:

:( at least here, the law is required to define everything it regulates. Since EUs don't fit any federal definition or local definition where I live, they are therefore unregulated, and therefore 100% legal, not just a gray area. However most cops around where I live are lazy and don't know the wording of the codes. And nothing protects people against the need for defending themselves in court should some cop decide to write a ticket.

For myself, if I ever get stopped by a cop, I am going to bluff my way through, and claim "Utah law defines this as an eBike or moped. Which are classified as a consumer product, not a motorized vehicle". While quite inaccurate I suspect a cop won't know that its inaccurate. If I simply follow the regulations for ebikes and act like those regulations fit, I doubt I will have any trouble. :). After all, any cop who doubts my claim will probably look it up. If they do look it up, they will only find that its still legal. Any cop that believes my claim will be unlikely to ticket me for something they believe is legal

I'm curious how the law where you live regulates hovercraft! Since they don't float :). Well they dont until you cut the power whole over water. In Utah they are regulated as boats still.

Edited by StridAst

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:( at least here, the law is required to define everything it regulates. Since EUs don't fit any federal definition or local definition where I live, they are therefore unregulated, and therefore 100% legal, not just a gray area. However most cops around where I live are lazy and don't know the wording of the codes. And nothing protects people against the need for defending themselves in court should some cop decide to write a ticket.

For myself, if I ever get stopped by a cop, I am going to bluff my way through, and claim "Utah law defines this as an eBike or moped. Which are classified as a consumer product, not a motorized vehicle". While quite inaccurate I suspect a cop won't know that its inaccurate. If I simply follow the regulations for ebikes and act like those regulations fit, I doubt I will have any trouble. :). After all, any cop who doubts my claim will probably look it up. If they do look it up, they will only find that its still legal. Any cop that believes my claim will be unlikely to ticket me for something they believe is legal

I'm curious how the law where you live regulates hovercraft! Since they don't float :). Well they dont until you cut the power whole over water. In Utah they are regulated as boats still.

 

Normally speaking, I agree with you.

In the time I have had the Solowheel, I have had numerous police or security people ask me about the legality of my Solowheel.

Until now, I never had a problem. I always said that the law applies to vehicles with two wheels or more.

However, actually, that is how mopeds or bikes are defined by Dutch law. So a SW is NOT a bike and thefore, the law does not apply.

 

Unfortunately, when I was talking to this motorbke cop, he was in constant contact with 'base' and just redirect every remark I made back to HQ.

So your ploy would probably not have worked anyway.

Again, most unfortunate. 

It appears another Solowheel user in my town has already gotten two fines for a total of 1100 Euro for driving an illegal vehicle without insurance.

The importer of the Solowheel wants to use this case to get a clear statement on the SW status now, but since these things take a long time, no progress has been made.

It could very well be that my city just wants to draw a single line when EU's are concerned.

AFAIK, users in other cities have had no problems (yet).

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Be warned! In Switzerland, the EU will be classed as a motorized vehicle from june 1st 2015 on and the  vehicle has to be registered. Therefore it has to comply to defined rules. The EU is treated equally to a Segway. 

Hello Ironfox,

 

I have heard multiple (different) rumours about the upcoming law in Switzerland. One source said that it would be classified as a low powered eBike (no license plate) others said that it would be classified as a Segway. Therefore, I would be interested what your source is and how reliable this information is...

Anyway, I am interested where we should fix the license plate on an EU. Wearing it on my back? Could they pass a law, which is technically not applicable? 

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This information comes directly from the Bundesrat / ASTRA

https://www.news.admin.ch/message/index.html?lang=de&msg-id=56870

Is that reliable enough?

 

In fact it mean you may not see this document as something to be happy about. To get the whole picture, you have to read all the regulations and directives. for more info, contact me via PM

 

Well, that doesn't look too bad to me.

At least now you know that you can legally ride a EU on the street and also have the same legal protection as an ebike user.

That at least is a better deal to me than some nitwit trying to apply a law article to a new device for which is was never ment.

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Well, that doesn't look too bad to me.

At least now you know that you can legally ride a EU on the street and also have the same legal protection as an ebike user.

That at least is a better deal to me than some nitwit trying to apply a law article to a new device for which is was never ment.

Thats the problem:

you can NOT ride an EU leagally on the street. They just stated the conditions how you could get a type approval for an EU at the authorities. those requirements were derived from the Segways. There are a lot of requirements which are quoted in the TGV and the VTS with many hundred pages. A lot of unclear passages have to be clarified.

In fact it means: If you run an EU on public roads after June 1st  2015 without a type approval AND registration in Switzerland, it is ILLEGAL and you can get fined.

There is still a lot of work to do in order to get a type approval for an EU. Worst thing is the huge diversity of manufacturers and EU layouts, especially when it comes to the type approval. you will not be able to apply the same type approval for a gotway 18 and a Airwheel X3, just to give an example.

The only thing that has been achieved by this simplification (Erleichterung) is the EU being in a certain category of vehicles. But the requirements tend to be very demanding. 

Edited by ironfox

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Thats the problem:

you can NOT ride an EU leagally on the street. They just stated the conditions how you could get a type approval for an EU at the authorities. those requirements were derived from the Segways. There are a lot of requirements which are quoted in the TGV and the VTS with many hundred pages. A lot of unclear passages have to be clarified.

In fact it means: If you run an EU on public roads after June 1st  2015 without a type approval AND registration in Switzerland, it is ILLEGAL and you can get fined.

There is still a lot of work to do in order to get a type approval for an EU. Worst thing is the huge diversity of manufacturers and EU layouts, especially when it comes to the type approval. you will not be able to apply the same type approval for a gotway 18 and a Airwheel X3, just to give an example.

The only thing that has been achieved by this simplification (Erleichterung) is the EU being in a certain category of vehicles. But the requirements tend to be very demanding. 

 

Oops, sorry I missed that in the statements.

And I assume it's the rule that either the manufacturer and/or the importer needs to apply for the type approval and that this approval does not come cheap.

Especially if it means that an EU should be modified to comply to the rules (which might be different than those in other countries).

I know that when it comes to cars, the Swiss are also very regulated and you are basically not allowed to just change bits on your car with non-OEM parts without getting another approval.

 

Sorry to hear that this will now also apply to EU's.

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I don't think you quite understand me still.

 

For example in Hong Kong where I live by law the very definition of a "Vehicle" is anything that has 2 wheels or more and has a place for the operator to sit.  Anything else is not classed as a vehicle. 

 

Skateboard: 4 wheels - No place to sit = Not a vehicle

Roller-blades: 8 wheels - No place to sit = Not a vehicle

Electric unicycle: 1 wheel - No place to sit = Not a vehicle

 

Bicycle: 2 wheels - Has a place to sit = Vehicle

Car: 4 wheels - Has a place to sit = Vehicle

 

So an electrical unicycle although you ride it is not defined by Hong Kong law as a vehicle because the 2 conditions I have just mentions do not fit it.  I'm pretty sure the definition of a "Vehicle" will be the same where you currently live too. 

 

Having a power source does not make any object a vehicle.  If that was the case then an electric kettle would be considered a motor vehicle, but its not because it doesn't have 2 wheels or more and there is no where for an operator to sit.

 

Hi Chuts.  Nice to see a fellow HK eucer!  Can you link me to these laws?  Preferably from a HK government website.  This way if I ever get stopped I can whip out "the law" and show them.  :D

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In fact it means: If you run an EU on public roads after June 1st  2015 without a type approval AND registration in Switzerland, it is ILLEGAL and you can get fined.

It is allready not legal to drive it on public trafic areas today!

So even in a private parking garage you are not allowed to drive it, if it is open for public use!

After June 1st only a couple more rules you get fined for!

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Thanks for the update.

So Switzerland is another country where the EU will be basically outruled by lawmakers who have no idea what they are dealing with.

Do e-bikes need to be registered in Switzerland also??

 

Basically that would mean that from June 1st, alle EU's in Switzerland have become illegal devices?

Does this mean they will need a license plate of some kind? And probably an insurance as well?

No, low speed e-bike do not need a license plate max. speed is 20km/h)!

First they wrote the EU will be like a low speed e-bike, but then they say it has to have a license plate!

Why:? I know why! The EU can have until 2.0kWh of motor-power compare to a low speed e-bike with only 0.5kWh. Even if the max. speed of 20km/h is the same as for low speed e-bikes.

It is all just a big big joke!

Even if you have the plate and the OK from the gov. I am not allowed to drive it in pedestrian areas!

But on 4 lanes city trafic I am allowed to drive it!

I am really pissed.....

Edited by ^tom^

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The powers that be (those who make the laws) don't seem to realise that a euc needs extra power to keep itself balanced and the extra power doesn't always equate to extra speed. Maybe they need to be made aware that a 200/250W motor may be fine on a bike but it just doesn't cut it on a euc! :)

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The powers that be (those who make the laws) don't seem to realise that a euc needs extra power to keep itself balanced and the extra power doesn't always equate to extra speed. Maybe they need to be made aware that a 200/250W motor may be fine on a bike but it just doesn't cut it on a euc! :)

 

Very good point.

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The powers that be (those who make the laws) don't seem to realise that a euc needs extra power to keep itself balanced and the extra power doesn't always equate to extra speed. Maybe they need to be made aware that a 200/250W motor may be fine on a bike but it just doesn't cut it on a euc! :)

Oh, They did realize this. So it is written: until 2kWh if the main power is needed to balance the wheel.........but...license plate.....

There is only one point why it can not go as a slow speed e-bike........this is: It has not two breaks for two wheels *!

* If it has a max. speed of 20km/h and a motor not more then 0.5kWh and be imported for your self or sold from a dealer within switzerland has the certificate it needs (because of the current/voltages)

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Hi Chuts.  Nice to see a fellow HK eucer!  Can you link me to these laws?  Preferably from a HK government website.  This way if I ever get stopped I can whip out "the law" and show them.  :D

 

Unfortunately there is nothing defined you can "whip out", as at the moment there is no law or regulation for electric unicycles.  The most basic form of transportation allowed on the roads which is recognized as a roadworthy vehicle in HK is a bicycle.

 

Basically the route so far:

 

motor vehicle (汽車) means any mechanically propelled vehicle

vehicle (車輛) means any vehicle whether or not mechanically propelled which is constructed or adapted for use on roads.

road (路、道路) includes every highway, thoroughfare, street, lane, alley, court, square, car park, passage, path, way and place to which the public have access either continuously or intermittently.

roadworthy (宜於道路上使用) in relation to any motor vehicle means that the vehicle is suitable and safe for use for any of the purposes for which it may lawfully be used.

 

In order to be road worthy you need to have your vehicle inspected by the HK transport department and have a license issued.  Currently, for some reason they don't inspect and issue licenses for electric unicycles. :).  Bicycles, tricycles are by default roadworthy and don't need to be licensed.  Able to easily control, brakes, lights place for operator to sit etc.

 

So basically an electric unicycle is currently not roadworthy as it can't be licensed and is not classed as a vehicle by law without that license.  So as it should, it can only be used on sidewalks, cycle lanes.

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For example in Hong Kong where I live by law the very definition of a "Vehicle" is anything that has 2 wheels or more and has a place for the operator to sit.  Anything else is not classed as a vehicle. 

 

Chuts I meant this part for the definition of "vehicle".  Is there a source for this?

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In the USA the legal system is based off the concept of "That which is not prohibited is permitted" 

It's like this anywhere in our galaxy, except in communist countries.

And apparently except in communist Netherland too, a country who has legalized pots and "naked streets", go figure...

I wasn't aware it lastly lost the war to the control freaks, sad for its nice people.

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Don't forget that everywhere there are 'interests' that lobby for laws to be written in a certain way. These interests are rarely the end user of the product. The EUC concept threatens a whole bunch of existing companies and whole industries. Bicycle manufacturers and mechanics and their associated trade groups being one. I would imagine in the Netherlands, which has a huge bicycle culture, there is a very powerful bicycle lobby. Lots of bicycles are sold and maintained in the Netherlands. These companies have no interest in the EUC. They also have no interest in the eBike. They have only interest in the status quo. This is how they make their money, and almost all companies will try to preserve the current state; companies are risk averse.

 

I suggest for the original poster to affix a sham second wheel to their EU (like a training wheel maybe, or a very small wheel attached to a non load bearing piece of metal, like a an old wire coathanger). This now makes the EU two wheeled, and thus an eBike. It probably won't work, likely the law has a law against aftermarket modification. Another thought is to try to get an 'experimental' license. These are usually available to support hobbyist use for powered devices, in the United states you can get one for cars, helicopters, airplanes, gliders, motorcycles etc., some of which are quite dangerous of course, but they allow use in public places appropriate for the device.

 

Unfortunately this is one of the pains of being an early adopter. This is a revolutionary technology, which can change mobility for lots of people (though likely in a side/side or outrigger small segway format that avoids the steep learning curve, like the ninebot platform). It will be adopted laws or not; because in the end the public will get its way, and the public will want the EU concept. Until then, we all may have to put some money away every month to pay towards fines.

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Don't forget that everywhere there are 'interests' that lobby for laws to be written in a certain way. These interests are rarely the end user of the product. The EUC concept threatens a whole bunch of existing companies and whole industries. Bicycle manufacturers and mechanics and their associated trade groups being one. I would imagine in the Netherlands, which has a huge bicycle culture, there is a very powerful bicycle lobby. Lots of bicycles are sold and maintained in the Netherlands. These companies have no interest in the EUC. They also have no interest in the eBike. They have only interest in the status quo. This is how they make their money, and almost all companies will try to preserve the current state; companies are risk averse.

 

I suggest for the original poster to affix a sham second wheel to their EU (like a training wheel maybe, or a very small wheel attached to a non load bearing piece of metal, like a an old wire coathanger). This now makes the EU two wheeled, and thus an eBike. It probably won't work, likely the law has a law against aftermarket modification. Another thought is to try to get an 'experimental' license. These are usually available to support hobbyist use for powered devices, in the United states you can get one for cars, helicopters, airplanes, gliders, motorcycles etc., some of which are quite dangerous of course, but they allow use in public places appropriate for the device.

 

Unfortunately this is one of the pains of being an early adopter. This is a revolutionary technology, which can change mobility for lots of people (though likely in a side/side or outrigger small segway format that avoids the steep learning curve, like the ninebot platform). It will be adopted laws or not; because in the end the public will get its way, and the public will want the EU concept. Until then, we all may have to put some money away every month to pay towards fines.

 

Well, actually, EBikes ARE allowed in the Netherlands. And actually, there is an exception in the law that outlines EBikes as motorised vehicles that DO NOT require a license plate or a regular car style insurance.

 

But yes, we are all Eary Adopters I guess :)  If you go back in time when the first cars arrived, there were in many countries laws that required someone to walk in front of the car with a red flag warning all the other traffic for the dangerous apparatus.

Around 1900, at least in the Netherlands, cars had a speed limit of 6 km/h inside city limits.

That is now hard to imagine.

 

The simple fact is that the existing laws simply do not fit the EU very well. But police officers try to make it fit and unless a new rule is added (like excempting the EBike), we all will have problems. It is/was the same with the Segway and now it is the same with the EU.

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