Citi Wheel Posted January 5, 2016 Author Share Posted January 5, 2016 2 hours ago, Obly said: Hi all, Long time lurker, but moved to post by this topic. The tl;dr goes first: I can't agree strongly enough with others--always wear a helmet when you ride! There is no helmet-free thrill factor you can experience that is worth the severe injury you can do to your brain. In my field I've had plenty of opportunity to be exposed to the science and reality of traumatic brain injury (TBI). Your brain is your most precious organ and you'd be surprised how fragile it is, and how little force is needed to injure it. Keep in mind that your brain is essentially floating in a bag of liquid inside your skull, and that the inside of your skull is covered in bony protrusions. When you hit your head with force, like during a crash, your head suddenly decelerates but your brain keeps moving, and slams violently into the side of your skull. In some cases the force-counterforce effect of the impact also causes the brain to rebound, sloshing violently into the opposite side of your skull. These "coup" and "contrecoup" impacts cause focal damage to the lobes of your brain that were hit. As if that weren't enough, also remember that your brain is attached to your spinal cord via your brain stem. When your brain caroms around your skull, that tether to the spinal cord transmits stretching, shearing force to your brain's neurons, which can tear. This causes diffuse, widespread damage throughout your brain, not just the impact sites. The effects of a TBI on you can be very serious. With luck, you may only suffer temporary headaches, dizziness, nausea, sensitivity to light, problems with attention and memory, mood swings, and seizures. More serious injuries can cause major cognitive deficits, making it hard or impossible to work or study; loss of motor function, leading to disability; and even personality changes, like extreme impulsiveness. Logos122, I'm hoping for a speedy, successful recovery. The brain is resilient, and with steady work and rehab, you can definitely come back from a mild TBI. But everyone, the risk to you and the person you are now is too high to ever chance it. Wear a helmet when you ride!!!! Thank you @Obly that is definitely reassuring to hear. I'm not having any other symptoms besides the memory issues at this point so hopefully it is just a mild TBI. @ScooterB @uniler @viti @SirGeraint @DSeucist Thank you for your kind words. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lizardmech Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 Doesn't look like a wheel shutdown to me, the screaming sound lasts about a second. When I forced my generic into BMS shutdown to experience a cutout there was no time to think about anything. If you assume 20km/h speed and the rider was aware of whatever caused the crash for around one second then the cause would be roughly 5 meters in front. If I had to guess a car obstructed the path and the crash was either caused by clipping it or falling off while trying to evade it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Citi Wheel Posted January 5, 2016 Author Share Posted January 5, 2016 And just to be clear, the intention of the original post was not to call out any EU manufacturer in particular. This can happen with any brand. No electronic can be guaranteed to work 100% of the time. It's just that your iPhone shutting down in the middle of a call has different consequences than an electric wheel shutting down at 20 mph. I'm just saying be prepared in case it does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlowMo Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 32 minutes ago, logos122 said: And just to be clear, the intention of the original post was not to call out any EU manufacturer in particular. This can happen with any brand. No electronic can be guaranteed to work 100% of the time. It's just that your iPhone shutting down in the middle of a call has different consequences than an electric wheel shutting down at 20 mph. I'm just saying be prepared in case it does. Did you remember the moment that you lost balance whether it is due to the EUC doing a freewheel? I did not hear any beeps from the recording even after the incident. Normally, I hear my units beep when they get out of the vertical balancing position during bad dismounts. I also saw that the slightly visible area turn red after the incident. I hope you did not get any injury and recovering well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Citi Wheel Posted January 5, 2016 Author Share Posted January 5, 2016 @SlowMo I don't remember anything from that day but I'm pretty sure it was a cut out. The witnesses said that a car was in no way involved. If it had been, I would be lawyering up right now. I have 3000 miles of riding experience among different EU's and have never fell off an EU after the initial learning period. Plus, I feel like the metal pedals of the gotway clipping concrete or something would've made a loud enough sound to be picked up right before the fall. Finally, the gotway was definitely riding and acting differently before the crash which should've warned me to be more careful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
checho Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 21 hours ago, logos122 said: I don't think it was a bump as the I road I ride on is pretty smooth. I have audio from the crash and the gotway was not beeping so I don't think I was pushing it beyond its limits. The gotway was acting a little strange a couple days before the crash which should've been a warning I heeded (battery indicator lights were acting odd). I feel sorry for your accident, I hope you recover well. When you overlean that is accelerate beyond the means of the motor there is no beep, the beep is usually an indication of speed, for acceleration there is no beep in current unicycles, maybe in future there will be a beep for over acceleration, but current generation of unicycles do not beep when over accelerated, the only indicator is the face plant, for that reason powerful motors with good battery packs increase safety, and you should never ride at the limit of what the unicycle can handle, since the biggest factors are the riders weight, the incline of the road and speed. which gotway did you have LS High Torque, Medium Speed, or High Speed? what is your weight? A given acceleration which might be ok for someone light might not be ok for someone heavy. Where you accelerating fast, or you where going at constant speed, on flat surface or on a slope? I think the High torque version even though it is slower it is most likely the safest since it can handle a higher acceleration compared to the other 2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Citi Wheel Posted January 5, 2016 Author Share Posted January 5, 2016 @checho It's the HS version. I weigh 150 lbs. I usually don't accelerate too hard especially at speed. The area where I crashed, the road is pretty smooth and level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlowMo Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 17 minutes ago, logos122 said: @SlowMo I don't remember anything from that day but I'm pretty sure it was a cut out. The witnesses said that a car was in no way involved. If it had been, I would be lawyering up right now. I have 3000 miles of riding experience among different EU's and have never fell off an EU after the initial learning period. Plus, I feel like the metal pedals of the gotway clipping concrete or something would've made a loud enough sound to be picked up right before the fall. Finally, the gotway was definitely riding and acting differently before the crash which should've warned me to be more careful. I also noticed that there were some crackling sound after the incident. Is it coming from the EUC? Sorry if you feel wrong about my questions, I know you as one of the best in the hobby and I will never question your judgement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
checho Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 3 minutes ago, logos122 said: @checho It's the HS version. I weigh 150 lbs. I usually don't accelerate too hard especially at speed. The area where I crashed, the road is pretty smooth and level. The HS version has the least amount of acceleration, I am not sure how the torque of the HS version compares to other unicycles. 150 lbs is not a lot of weight for a unicycle rated for 220lbs, and since the road was level, the only thing I can think of is that the batteries could be weak or that the HS version has very little torque, or some component overheated. The batteries could be checked by testing if they supply the advertised capacity, and to check if they have a severe voltage drop under load, a small voltage drop under load is normal, or by testing the range they provide. The torque could be tested using treadmill with an adjustable incline. An overheated component could be checked by doing a visual inspection and checking for burn spot, discolored wired, melted plastic, etc. After you recover, I would recommend to not accelerate fast until you find what caused the accident and make sure the gotway hs is in good shape, and always were a helmet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Citi Wheel Posted January 5, 2016 Author Share Posted January 5, 2016 15 minutes ago, SlowMo said: I also noticed that there were some crackling sound after the incident. Is it coming from the EUC? Sorry if you feel wrong about my questions, I know you as one of the best in the hobby and I will never question your judgement. @SlowMo I was just trying to help out the community out by sharing a story. I bashed my head, don't remember what happened, and honestly trying to play detective at this point is getting real annoying. Take it however you want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurgen Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 9 hours ago, DSeucist said: I appreciate sharing your terrible accident with us logos122 and wish you steady recovery. As I can see the EUC's are in early developing phase and safety futures are weak point. Putting on a protective gear will help us to some extend but also will create the illusion that we are secure and can speed more and more. Here is another issue that I see about getting easy with speed/time relation. I just recalled my first parachute jump back in year 1983. Right after the chute open there is a free fall for 3-4 minutes. During these minutes you actually don't realize that your down vertical speed is 2-3 m/s and what happens is that the legs and overall body musculus "forget" that they are about to hit the ground in the same way as when you jump from 2.5 meters high. But when you jump from 2.5 m high you know that you gonna hit the ground just in a second and the body is prepared. On that my first parachute jump I hit down really heavy, thanks training didn't get injures. So, this is the analogy that I'm making. When you cruise on your EUC the body is still and the mind after a minute "forgets" about the actual speed relative to the ground, musculus became relaxed and when the bad happens...the fall is inevitable. Don't get me wrong, the protective gear is useful and lifesaving, but I'm considering the only real protection is the ability to run off ANY time and that can hardly happen if you cruise with a higher speed than you can run. I think the speed you can run is not so important, because you're catapulted forward at the max speed, and will slow down. It's probably more the max step frequency that you can achieve that is the limiting factor, it's when your legs can no longer follow (are getting behind) your body that you fall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
esaj Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 4 hours ago, logos122 said: And just to be clear, the intention of the original post was not to call out any EU manufacturer in particular. This can happen with any brand. No electronic can be guaranteed to work 100% of the time. It's just that your iPhone shutting down in the middle of a call has different consequences than an electric wheel shutting down at 20 mph. I'm just saying be prepared in case it does. True that. Saying "this wouldn't have happened if you had brand X" or "you should have bought from an authorized reseller" (I'm looking at you, @Neale Gray, although your post was already hidden) is just plain wrong in this case (or maybe the reseller could then be sued for damages, if local?). It could have been just as well a King Song/Milbay/Ninebot/Inmotion/IPS/insert any other brand bought from anywhere... Yes, it's more likely to happen with a low quality wheel made from low quality parts, but as always, any wheel can cut out any time, even with high quality wheels and parts. All it takes is a simple bad solder joint (that cannot always be detected even with high quality assurance) or simple basic electronic component that finally gives up, general wear & tear of everything, sudden tire puncture or a battery cell that failed (happens even with the highest quality cells from time to time) etc. TVs, mobile phones, computers, cars (especially newer ones with lots of electronics) etc. etc. break down all the time just on their own, it just happens, not that it's ok, but it does. Of course, with an EUC breaking down while moving, especially at high speed, the results are (usually) much worse than a car breaking down, because there are no mechanical brakes or more than one wheel, and the self-balancing function needs everything working from batteries to electronics to the motor at all times to keep you up. We can all take turns in guessing what went wrong, could have been device malfunction, battery voltage drop/cut out due to different reasons (failing cell, low temperature, BMS malfunction, over discharge...), sudden bump or pot-hole in the street, unexpected obstacle... it won't change what happened. Hopefully, the safety of these devices will become better over time (like boot-up self-tests, and realtime monitoring/measurements of everything with warnings, redundant systems etc), but it'll never reach a point where you could be 100% certain at all times that you can't faceplant with it should it break down, unless you add at least two more wheels (after which it won't be an unicycle anymore, but a tri-cycle) and mechanical brakes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neale Gray Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 @esaj my post pointed out never ride without a helmet and purchase from local distributors for specialist advice (including safety) and service. Most failures I read on this forum are rider error, inexperience and riding outside the unicycle capability which could be avoided if the correct advice was given. Resellers that are quoting unrealistic expectations for distance and power are likely leading to unrealistic rider expectations. Example: claiming 70 km travel distance from a 680Wh battery system, I am sure this leads to riders thinking they have more stability power than is truly available. I stand by my statements about modifications voiding warranty and creating safety risks. "reseller could then be sued for damages, if local?" In Australia the answer is YES - today in Australia it is national news that the authorities are seeking out the importer of a hoverboard that is suspect in a house fire yesterday. Another Australian forum member today has posted he is looking to take legal action against a hoverboard supplier for injuries he sustained. If in these cases the businesses/individual that sold the devices are not Australian (have an ABN or ACN) or the consumers purchased from an overseas supplier then the consumer will bear all risk and responsibility - selling unicycles is not like selling an iPhones. I also suspect if the device was not compliant than the insurance companies will try to avoid a damages payout. This is important information if you are in Australia or NZ as consumers are very used to having legislated protections and maybe unaware there is no protections if purchasing outside of Australia / NZ. Selling unicycles (or any transport device) is a serious and professional business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
esaj Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 23 minutes ago, Neale Gray said: @esaj my post pointed out never ride without a helmet and purchase from local distributors for specialist advice (including safety) and service. Most failures I read on this forum are rider error, inexperience and riding outside the unicycle capability which could be avoided if the correct advice was given. Resellers that are quoting unrealistic expectations for distance and power are likely leading to unrealistic rider expectations. Example: claiming 70 km travel distance from a 680Wh battery system, I am sure this leads to riders thinking they have more stability power than is truly available. I stand by my statements about modifications voiding warranty and creating safety risks. While I understand your points, they have nothing to do with this accident. AFAIK, the rider in question has thousands of miles of experience with at least Ninebot E+ and the Gotway, has done instructional videos for backwards and one foot riding and has also tested other wheels (at least IPS Zero, probably others). No idea if the wheels were bought from "official" resellers or not, but I doubt they're modified in any way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berus Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 @logos122 My best wishes for a speedy recovery Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kwing Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 Logos... So sorry to hear about your accident. Please take care and recover quickly and start wheeling again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mono Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 @Neale Gray, I am not sure you are doing Milbay any favor by showing that the brand needs invasive lobbying in this forum. I would believe that the brand deserves better. Plus, you are doing your own credibility no favor by displaying such a strong bias. Just my 2 cents. 7 hours ago, checho said: When you overlean that is accelerate beyond the means of the motor there is no beep, the beep is usually an indication of speed, for acceleration there is no beep in current unicycles, maybe in future there will be a beep for over acceleration, but current generation of unicycles do not beep when over accelerated, the only indicator is the face plant,... My Gotway 14" beeps also on overlean, or I should probably rather say to indicate overload limits, not only speed limits. Apart from speeding, I can solicit beeps when going uphill, when hitting potholes, or when battery levels get low (below 25% beeping is all over the place). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neale Gray Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 @Niko Thanks for the mention always pushing hard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DS Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 12 hours ago, Jurgen said: I think the speed you can run is not so important, because you're catapulted forward at the max speed, and will slow down. It's probably more the max step frequency that you can achieve that is the limiting factor, it's when your legs can no longer follow (are getting behind) your body that you fall. Completely agree. The ability of abrupt fast stepping forward from standing point is most important. And in my believe this ability decrease when the body does not expect that fast move. I think also that cruising cause that feeling of easiness. What I'm trying to do IOT prevent this is to change the constant speed, make some turns, stop and walk/run for a while to move my legs more. In that way I believe I keep my body in more kind of "alert" state. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurgen Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 25 minutes ago, DSeucist said: Completely agree. The ability of abrupt fast stepping forward from standing point is most important. And in my believe this ability decrease when the body does not expect that fast move. I think also that cruising cause that feeling of easiness. What I'm trying to do IOT prevent this is to change the constant speed, make some turns, stop and walk/run for a while to move my legs more. In that way I believe I keep my body in more kind of "alert" state. I believe that's a good suggestion. Another thing that has not been mentioned so far I believe, is that if you ride too long the circulation in the feet and lower legs is reduced, which probably limits the max step frequency, or worse if the lower legs are numb can result in sprains and fractures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DS Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 6 minutes ago, Jurgen said: I believe that's a good suggestion. Another thing that has not been mentioned so far I believe, is that if you ride too long the circulation in the feet and lower legs is reduced, which probably limits the max step frequency, or worse if the lower legs are numb can result in sprains and fractures. True to the point. You may have that long car driving experience and you know how numb is the body...or just watch the funny moves that are making the stepping out of the cars drivers at some fuel station. But car and EUC safety are...just incompatible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roue Libre Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 With a fast machine like MSuper2, I would definitely use helmet. Even with my Nb1E+, I consider buying a snowboard helmet. Hope you recover soon ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MetricUSA Posted January 6, 2016 Share Posted January 6, 2016 Loco, just now reading post, hope for fast recovery, may I ask where you are located? I had a tumble two months ago, thought I broke my wrist, just a really bad sprang, nothing broken, but you would not have known from the pain, but could not fully use hand for a long time, luck was on my side. And this only happen at 15 km/h speed on a q3 on a night ride home from work. Oh I was being cocky at the time doing swaying and back and forth movements, the back/forth movement did me in, hense over lean... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc415 Posted January 13, 2016 Share Posted January 13, 2016 @logos122 this saddens me greatly, I'm sorry for the accident and wish you a speedy full recovery. definitely serves as a wake up call to always wear a helmet and protective gear. I'll definitely be taking greater measures after reading about your accident Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oily Posted January 13, 2016 Share Posted January 13, 2016 Wishing you a speedy (and pain free!) recovery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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