The trend toward larger wheels.

[Planemo]

1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

It’s quite common that people who have only ridden smaller wheels, don’t see the point of a large tire. But no-one goes back to a 16” x 2.5” or smaller after owning an 18” x 3”.

So true 

Not unless you're @ShanesPlanet who likes faffing about with his mten after the Sherman. But then he's a bit odd anyway so doesn't count

 

[Camenbert]

4 minutes ago, RockyTop said:

Right now in the US we are closing coal plants, and preventing any new nuclear plants. We are increasing unreliable energies. We have and have had rolling brown outs for many years in some states. ........ Does it make sense to convert to electric cars when we can’t even keep the lights on? 

Read "For professional investors - WELLS, WIRES, AND WHEELS" should give you the light
https://static1.squarespace.com/static/596a07c029687fd47a2d41cc/t/5d59b052bb302e0001609f16/1566158963441/P1907043_Wells_Wires_Wheels.pdf

In one word, intermittent energy (solar, wind) + "455GWh of batteries produced in 2020, with projections to increase capacity to 1400GWh in 2025" (your next car) = no problem.

[RockyTop]

55 minutes ago, Camenbert said:

Read "For professional investors - WELLS, WIRES, AND WHEELS" should give you the light
https://static1.squarespace.com/static/596a07c029687fd47a2d41cc/t/5d59b052bb302e0001609f16/1566158963441/P1907043_Wells_Wires_Wheels.pdf

In one word, intermittent energy (solar, wind) + "455GWh of batteries produced in 2020, with projections to increase capacity to 1400GWh in 2025" (your next car) = no problem.

I have been around for a while...... Stop telling me and show me. We can start with keeping the lights on. So far? Not so good. 

[GoGeorgeGo]

3 hours ago, mrelwood said:

I’m all for small and light wheels, but I’m pushed away by a tiny tire size. I’d definitely be interested in a wheel that weighs a third of the current ones and is shaped as only a tiny shell on top of the tire... As long as it has suspension and a 18” x 3” tire, since they are parameters I won’t be give up on, no matter what.

 It’s quite common that people who have only ridden smaller wheels, don’t see the point of a large tire. But no-one goes back to a 16” x 2.5” or smaller after owning an 18” x 3”.

I feel people get worried that it wont be as maneuverable. They get on it and instantly think nope my v8 is more nimble. When the reality is just like when they first got on the v8 they still need to learn how to ride that bigger tire. I dont find any maneuverability issues at all with the v11 or the EXN. I was actually shocked at how nimble the EXN is, there is nothing i cant do on that wheel. Once you can throw a body turn and go backwards a little, you have total control of the wheel no matter the tire size. And the larger tire just makes everything safer and more comfortable. I agree, i have absolutely zero interest in any tire under 18x3. Even if i wanted a mega portable carry around wheel, an 18x3 with the entire electronic chasis held in the rim would be ideal. And the v11 is ultra nimble with its higher pedal height, you dont even need to throw body turns around to turn on an absolute dime

[RockyTop]

3 minutes ago, GoGeorgeGo said:

I agree, i have absolutely zero interest in any tire under 18x3.

I remembered how much I loved my KS 16s so I cycled it into my daily work schedule replacing my S18 for a week or two. I had dreams of an easy to carry up stairs wheel. A wheel that is more nimble and zippy at slow speeds....... Two days!!!! I was back to the S18 and trying to pick out my next GW like power mountain bike trail wheel. While it is true that the smaller wheels are more nimble (quicker to maneuver) The larger wheels have their own more stable platform maneuverability. Just don’t expect me to ever challenge @pico to a dance competition. 

[redsnapper]

2 hours ago, RockyTop said:

Right now in the US we are closing coal plants, and preventing any new nuclear plants. We are increasing unreliable energies. We have and have had rolling brown outs for many years in some states. ........ Does it make sense to convert to electric cars when we can’t even keep the lights on? 

Tesla has proven against all odds - and contrarians shorting them for huge losses - that mass market EV is doable. China is cranking out EVs like there is no tomorrow. VW/FORD have retooled strategy to focus on EV. So imo the horse has left the barn - consumer transportation is moving to EV and quickly... The market thinks this is where the future is (hence Tesla`s ridiculous market cap) so the money will continue to pour in and create rapidly increasing capacity and innovation (hopefully). Dunno if it makes sense but the perception is that consumer sentiment is reaching the tipping point and huge piles of money are to be made in EV.  In Canada I`m paying 5.50$/gal so the cost of ownership of gasoline car is getting up there! How these EVs perform in -20C I look forward to seeing...

[Lateralus]

1 hour ago, GoGeorgeGo said:

 Even if i wanted a mega portable carry around wheel, an 18x3 with the entire electronic chasis held in the rim would be ideal.

Yeah what happened to this idea? Cool concepts like this were shown to be possible so long ago. Like this 2017 video

 

[Guest]

The trend towards taller wheels may be the continuation of a trend towards taller riders. Builders may have statistics for bigger and bigger buyers. So the dimensions of the products increase with the profile of the customer; and then the power of the motors must also increase. I can't imagine a rugby mainstay on a 300 watt wheel. Tall people may find themselves comfortable on a 24 inch. For me it's a huge extraterrestrial machine, I prefer the 16 inches to move, without settling on a chair. It's a personal taste. I understand that a giant does not like to ride a pony, one could not support the other, physically then morally.

[GoGeorgeGo]

7 minutes ago, Lateralus said:

Yeah what happened to this idea? Cool concepts like this were shown to be possible so long ago. Like this 2017 video

 

Thats a cool cpncept, needs a fender to cover the exposed wheel but that is essentially what im thinking. I think the big issue would be energy density, getting enough battery to create a "safe" device inside the rim of the tire woyld be tricky, although not impossible. The v11 has 1500wh of battery in its wheel well and without the saddle is actually an incredibly small wheel. Get rid of the lighting and put the control board in place of ~500wh, that would be a badass little compact wheel

[harmitonkana]

I would without a doubt buy a smaller lighter wheel if the performance was adequate and they came with couple of dream features of mine.

I recently sold my KS16X as I just didn't use it as much as I thought. My initial motivation / excuse to get the wheel was that I could use it for my commute within the city I lived in. For this the wheel was perfect. I really loved how it rode. After moving to a new city, and my work place remaining where I moved out of, I had to rely on train travel to get to work. The KS16X was just too big to shove under the seat and too heavy to handle in the train. Also neither my friends nor my significant other really use personal electric vehicles, which resulted in exploring places solo being my only use case for the wheel. In addition, where I live the winter is long, dark, wet and snowy. For half a year the wheel stood still.

I am currently using my IPS I5 to commute to and from the train. The performance of the tiny wheel leaves a lot to be desired but you can't really beat how easy it is to lug around. The tyre is narrow, only 1.5" wide but the diameter of 14" doesn't feel too bad to ride. However, with the I5 I feel that the designers were probably so fixed on creating the slimmest EUC in the world that they sacrificed quite much to achieve it. I don't really like the open motor design and the shell extending so down low. Also the top speed is just too low for it to have any chance of keeping up with the cyclists. I kind of feel there could be a place for a newer design to better serve within this use case.

If I got to wish, I'd like to see following things come to reality:

- Maybe 10-16" diameter tyre
- 30 km range (18.6 miles)
- Weight under 15 kg (33 pounds)
- 35 km/h top speed (22 mph)
- No RGB lighting
- No unnecessary music features (if they add size, weight or price considerably)
- Robust metal frame
- Possibility to change the tyre easily with some kind of quick release.
- Replaceable battery packs which could be charged while not attached to the wheel. Maybe some kind of clip on thing on both side of the wheel.
- The smallest profile possible that can accommodate all these features

Do you think the combination of top speed, range and weight are within the limits of reality considering current battery technology?

I hope my I5 lasts long as I think I might be in for a long wait.

Edited May 25, 2021 by harmitonkana

[Circuitmage]

Having been on several different PEV things...it's all about the wheelbase.

18">16">>14">>"11">8". Just by looking at that 16" is somewhat acceptable, many people may find them easier to ride than an 18", but for me it's a no brainer. The bigger the wheel, the smoother the ride.

 

[Unventor]

I definitely think the trend is clear. Wheels are getting bigger compared to going 2-3years back.

It seems to me most here when a new wheel is announced are looking to gain more power in terms climbing/heat resistant/speed and range. The only real way to do that is slapping on more battery cells and that takes space and means weight gain too. To facilitate that on a small wheel is very hard to impossible. And to cope tire needs more buffer too, which means bigger rim and width.

Now Inmotion released the V8f. In itself a good package to making a light wheel. But I can't see myself buy such a wheel as it in the back of my mind is unsafe due limited battery and smaller motor. I rarely ride at 20kmh as top speed. However some do.

Also I view suspension as big a must have as a decent size battery meaning 1500wh+ but I don't need 5000wh and the weight and bulkyness that comes with it. Now there is a new kid on the block, the V12. Probably a good wheel in many way, but missing that must have suspension in my book. But it is a wheel made for those that want nimbleness and speed. To me suspension is much more important.

Rolling back to the V8f it is on the borderline to being too light, not to carry but to ride. Some like a small "nimble" wheel but I still thing some weight is better as overall safety. I really doubt we will see many new 14" wheels in the future. Maybe an odd one like mten3.

For a wheel to make it to market it needs to sell in numbers. And the community mantra is more power/speed/range so market for small super lightweight wheels, I seriously doubt it.

[AtlasP]

There is a common idea here that 16" is just blanket more maneuverable than 18", and in my experience tire width, [edit: also as indicated by Uventor, tire tread], case width, and overall weight distribution are far more important than mere tire diameter in this regard. The KS-18XL (18x2.5") and even the V11 (18x3") with their tall and particularly svelte/narrow form factors are both *far* more maneuverable than my 16x3" Nikola, by *a lot* and without question.

Edited May 25, 2021 by AtlasP

[Unventor]

53 minutes ago, AtlasP said:

There is a common idea here that 16" is just blanket more maneuverable than 18", and in my experience tire width, case width, and overall weight distribution are far more important than mere tire diameter in this regard. The KS-18XL (18x2.5") and even the V11 (18x3") with their tall and particularly svelte/narrow form factors are both *far* more maneuverable than my 16x3" Nikola, by *a lot* and without question.

In the regards of the V11 it is very dependent of tire choice and probably also that it has high pedals. Tires with a solid center line vs a knobby tire are much easier to "shoulder twist" turn at low speeds. My winter tire is impossible to turn this way. On this tire I need to tilt the wheel sideways instead.

The part that is often hard to discuss here is some use the tire of nimble for turning others for braking/acceleration and other for both. Some as some view performance as speed, but in that regard I prefer to say speed as performance is so much more to me, as it includes turning/braking/acceleration/climbing/torque/speed for me.

[Roadpower]

A wider footprint has more inherent twisting resistance or loading. Breaking the twisting resistance is done by sheer force or rolling it off or the combination of actions. One of the things I do is class eight vehicle driver training, I teach drivers is that it is better to have the vehicle rolling even if slightly when they turn the steering wheel so as to reduce scrubbing/wear on tires and steering components as well to just make turning over all easier.

This has been said countless times already but what people prefer is largely subjective and mostly based on the attributes of size, weight, strength and skill or experience or desired outcomes.

[coullit]

I charge my wheel up with solar panels during the day here in Spain, therefore the charging and anything else I put on in the house in daylight hours is free electric It s an MSP very long life the battery, safe and sure footed just a bit heavy to lift into the boot of the car

 

[Unventor]

1 hour ago, Roadpower said:

A wider footprint has more inherent twisting resistance or loading. Breaking the twisting resistance is done by sheer force or rolling it off or the combination of actions. One of the things I do is class eight vehicle driver training, I teach drivers is that it is better to have the vehicle rolling even if slightly when they turn the steering wheel so as to reduce scrubbing/wear on tires and steering components as well to just make turning over all easier.

This has been said countless times already but what people prefer is largely subjective and mostly based on the attributes of size, weight, strength and skill or experience or desired outcomes.

It you were to line up a V8 vs a Z10 I can say you will find it very dofferent to what you wpuld expect on how very slow and thight controlled turns you can do. Tjere are similarities tol with KS16X and V11 but the shape of the Z10 tire makes it a champ at much slower than walking speeds and tight maneuvering. Yes on slim tires you can probably do acrobatic easier but for a traveling/riding with a wheel footprint alond os not always easier to control. EUCs are not controlled like a car or mc or bike. If you ride EUC I am pretty sure you know what I mean.