Corn Flake Posted May 14, 2021 Share Posted May 14, 2021 Actually, the electronic doesn't need to be redundant. That's IT in you talking. On the other hand, if you ever open one of those EUC, the components used are basically what you would find in home computers that wrap up in hobby grade transistors and connectors. The design and the technology is sounded. They just need to a *much* better job in quality control and add overhead on current cooling/current handling capability. Imagine the kinda electronics that would go into a Tesla. Same level of testing a Tesla received. Riding thru 6 inch of water, freezing snow, death valley 120 desert, etc... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skeptikos Posted May 14, 2021 Share Posted May 14, 2021 6 hours ago, CarlW said: Is there any gear or riding techniques that could have prevented Black Cobras serious injury? An airbag vest. Regular shoulder pads will help to an extent but they just aren't designed to handle this kind of full-body impact. I think the takeaway from this accident is that airbag vests should be part of the standard recommended safety gear. (But at least don't skimp on the shoulder pads.) 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Scottie888 Posted May 14, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted May 14, 2021 Not sure if air vests are the answer but if we're gonna do all that, mites well drive a car instead. Wait...don't thousands & thousands die in auto accidents despite tons of airbags. Or how bout donning Pilsbury Doughboy outfits instead. There's gonna be risks in everything we do. Indeed thousands are injured slipping on bathtubs so are we gonna stop showering. Gear up, practise safe riding skills & stay far away from multi ton metal monsters as much as possible. If we buy the farm doing something we enjoy, IMO that's not a bad way to go. Luckily there's only been a couple of fatalities recorded far's EUCs go. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
litewave Posted May 14, 2021 Share Posted May 14, 2021 2 hours ago, Skeptikos said: An airbag vest. Regular shoulder pads will help to an extent but they just aren't designed to handle this kind of full-body impact. I think the takeaway from this accident is that airbag vests should be part of the standard recommended safety gear. (But at least don't skimp on the shoulder pads.) Nice idea that has been discussed several times on this site over the years. However, it won't protect against the @Rehab1-special impact that I also experienced where you impact the ground with arms outstretched, striking the wristpads (my Flexmeters work very well), then the elbow guards, sending the force up the humerus. I was wearing Leatt elbow guards that deflected much of the impact but did not absorb enough of the force that traveled up my arm and fractured the humeral head. Luckily, I was able to heal slowly over time without surgery. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unventor Posted May 14, 2021 Share Posted May 14, 2021 6 hours ago, Tryptych said: Having worked in I.T. I can tell you the technology to have electronics operating in a fully redundant cluster already exists today, in fact it was here years ago. It could be used on wheels. What works in I.T. is not necessarily easy to transfer to an EUC. The time to kick in and switch over is very short and we are still running on 1 wheel. I can't see how you can handle motor or hall sensor faults. Now we have more powerful wheels so overload issues could have been in the past if people were not putting power pads on their wheels. If you can't grab it there is only so much force you can apply for speed and braking. Once a rider know he cannot stop on the spot he or she is like to ride with less aggressive style. I am not saying someone wouldn't take risks but overload or riding beyond the limits of the wheel would probably be frequent. But I still think many do not bother to understand how an EUC work and what risk you run when not understand and respecting it limits. Speed is just one of those things. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unventor Posted May 14, 2021 Share Posted May 14, 2021 Any news on how @ThaBlackCobra is doing now and how his recovery is going? Yes I know it is soon to ask but still. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skeptikos Posted May 14, 2021 Share Posted May 14, 2021 1 hour ago, Scottie888 said: Not sure if air vests are the answer but if we're gonna do all that, mites well drive a car instead. Well, it's less bulky than the leatt hydra some people are wearing, and less bulky than some of the gear I've seen ThaBlackCobra wear, while providing much more protection. So IMO it's an easy choice. It's frustrating that it's more expensive than most other safety gear, but it's still cheaper than a trip to the hospital and some sellers offer payment plans to help. 38 minutes ago, litewave said: Nice idea that has been discussed several times on this site over the years. However, it won't protect against the @Rehab1-special impact that I also experienced where you impact the ground with arms outstretched, striking the wristpads (my Flexmeters work very well), then the elbow guards, sending the force up the humerus. I was wearing Leatt elbow guards that deflected much of the impact but did not absorb enough of the force that traveled up my arm and fractured the humeral head. Luckily, I was able to heal slowly over time without surgery. Do you have a vague idea about the relative frequency of those two different types of broken shoulders? I'm hoping to stay out of the broken shoulder club and I'm wondering how worried I should be about each of these. I guess they're both kind of common? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoGeorgeGo Posted May 14, 2021 Share Posted May 14, 2021 8 hours ago, Tryptych said: You can practice rolling all day but it has ZERO value when it comes to a crash like this. I don't care if you think you're a ninja - you aren't. When this shit happens you have no choice in how you will land - you're foolish to think otherwise. You'll be INSTANTLY slammed to the concrete, stunned, dazed, and not even be sure what happened. That is the reality - even at 20mph, you're young or inexperienced if you think otherwise. Anyone who has been injured in a serious crash like this knows this is the reality. This is a perfect opertunity to have a real conversation about why these wheels can't use fully redundant motherboards like many servers providing us internet service (which you are using at this very moment). Raising awareness on this subject could be the most positive thing to come out of Erwin's crash. Having worked in I.T. I can tell you the technology to have electronics operating in a fully redundant cluster already exists today, in fact it was here years ago. It could be used on wheels. It is entirely possible. The (Chinese) manufacturers just don't think it's worth the cost. Do you? What would you pay for a nearly cutout-proof-fully-redundant wheel? Would you pay 25% more? Would you pay 50% more? After looking at the screws in Erwin's shoulder, I think I might... I think dual control boards is an absolute must. It woyldnt add much weight and the costs are well worth it. Like with an airplane, a mechanical failure ensure catastrophic events. Having a redundant system should be an obvious necessity in the industry. As for rolling out of a fall, here is my buddy ray rolling out of a fall skip to the last minute for his roll out. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supercurio Posted May 14, 2021 Share Posted May 14, 2021 (edited) 12 hours ago, CarlW said: Is there any gear or riding techniques that could have prevented Black Cobras serious injury? His incident and seeing a new high dollar wheel burn up just riding up a long hill is not inspiring confidence in trying out this new hobby. What did these riders do wrong if anything? If you buy the most expensive EUC options and they fail and injure you or burn up just going up a hill is it 100 percent equipment failure from poor design or is it partly operator error? Go to 11:30 in the video. This hill does look that steep to me after seeing the inclines the the Wrong Way channel tests EUCs on. I've been there and it's a steep hill for sure. I'll go back there (with my 16X) while recording to Strava and make this climb a segment for anyone to check it out. You're asking a good question tho. The answer for this specific case is that the Veteran Sherman has a known flaw in its implementation of safety and alarms, the reason why Mike is able to predict what will happen ahead of time. Since its inception, this wheel has been shown to self-destruct in certain scenarios The reason? It lack the typical safety systems like alarms and tilt-back for any other conditions than speed too high and battery too low. Other wheels also ring an alarm first, so as rider you know to reduce the power demand, but the Sherman, like Gotway wheels of older generations can consistently burn up going uphill. Edited May 14, 2021 by supercurio Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rawnei Posted May 14, 2021 Share Posted May 14, 2021 1 hour ago, supercurio said: The reason? It lack the typical safety systems like alarms and tilt-back for any other conditions than speed too high and battery too low. Other wheels also ring an alarm first, so as rider you know to reduce the power demand, but the Sherman, like Gotway wheels of older generations can consistently burn up going uphill. Can't just blame lack of alarm though since other wheels can climb the hill without burning up, so something about the components on the motherboard on the Shermy isn't up to par for something like this. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post null Posted May 14, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted May 14, 2021 5 minutes ago, Rawnei said: Can't just blame lack of alarm though since other wheels can climb the hill without burning up, so something about the components on the motherboard on the Shermy isn't up to par for something like this. Considering it’s systematically the same place that burn from the overload (where battery cables arrive to the board) they could start by improving there.. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KAY GEE Posted May 14, 2021 Share Posted May 14, 2021 4 hours ago, Unventor said: But I still think many do not bother to understand how an EUC work and what risk you run when not understand and respecting it limits. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EUC Sharkman Posted May 16, 2021 Share Posted May 16, 2021 Get well soon @ThaBlackCobra. I'm also a bigger rider and any hard hit with my weight on my shoulder would shatter it. Big bummer that it came off a wheel you just got and was looking forward to ride. I too will start looking to upgrade my armor gear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Unipsycho Posted May 16, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted May 16, 2021 People commenting on whether you can LEARN to fall better or not, in my experience, you certainly can. Practicing falls, taking martial arts (where you practice a TON of rolling, falls, impact avoidance, etc), practicing parkour, or putting in 10,000hr on a MUNI, certainly train you to fall better than the guy beside you with none of that practice. It becomes instinctive and you WILL roll out, instead of hitting a shoulder or your head. The muscle memory will help you to launch the feet higher in order to roll, or you will tuck your arms in, instead of going down on the wrists, all these little things can help a person take a fall 1000 times without injury. Not to say you can't still get injured on that 1001st fall, and yes, you should still have gear, but practicing fall techniques has kept me alive in many sports and without it, I would have injured myself many times (or worse), including riding my EUC now. I fall every ride (offroad riding), several times, but no injuries as I've literally fallen a million times in my life through all those other sports. I think anyone who wants to take falling more seriously, can certainly practice and learn how to fall more safely. Parkour as far as I'm concerned is the best training for that and probably the funnest. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post ..... Posted May 16, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted May 16, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Unipsycho said: People commenting on whether you can LEARN to fall better or not, in my experience, you certainly can. Practicing falls, taking martial arts (where you practice a TON of rolling, falls, impact avoidance, etc), practicing parkour, or putting in 10,000hr on a MUNI, certainly train you to fall better than the guy beside you with none of that practice. It becomes instinctive and you WILL roll out, instead of hitting a shoulder or your head. The muscle memory will help you to launch the feet higher in order to roll, or you will tuck your arms in, instead of going down on the wrists, all these little things can help a person take a fall 1000 times without injury. Not to say you can't still get injured on that 1001st fall, and yes, you should still have gear, but practicing fall techniques has kept me alive in many sports and without it, I would have injured myself many times (or worse), including riding my EUC now. I fall every ride (offroad riding), several times, but no injuries as I've literally fallen a million times in my life through all those other sports. I think anyone who wants to take falling more seriously, can certainly practice and learn how to fall more safely. Parkour as far as I'm concerned is the best training for that and probably the funnest. I also assumed my experience in hitting and rolling would come in handy. Hell, we used to dive fences and jump off the back of cars, BEFORE the word 'parkour' was even imagined. Back when safety gear was when you aimed for the grass instead of the asphalt. I digress. Having taken Judo for years when younger and practicing falls from other activites, I hope you are correct. The more I analzye and more I talk to people, the less I think its true. I REALLY hope you are right, but I also find validity in the argument that on an euc, you dont even have time to use your feet to propel you. I always try and run or roll out a crash. My doubt that this will happen on an euc, has me worried. Even on a bike, as I clear handlebars superman style, theres still mere moments of ability to change trajectory. I keep watching euc crashes to get an idea if its even feasible. I am pretty certain I will know for sure soon enough, and there's only one way. Admission for that lesson can be rather high too. Hell, maybe attempting to roll is a terrible idea, as theres no time and it merely crushes your shoulder. If this is the case, those skaters that practiced slide outs on knees and hands are ahead of my game by a couple decades. Edited May 16, 2021 by ShanesPlanet 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unipsycho Posted May 18, 2021 Share Posted May 18, 2021 (edited) On 5/15/2021 at 11:22 PM, ShanesPlanet said: I also assumed my experience in hitting and rolling would come in handy. Hell, we used to dive fences and jump off the back of cars, BEFORE the word 'parkour' was even imagined. Back when safety gear was when you aimed for the grass instead of the asphalt. I digress. I hear ya there, too funny. I think the effects of the fall are highly dependent on where you ride and obviously speed. I hate pavement, always have and ride slower on pavement than I do on dirt trails, cause I know the pavement will hurt me more than the dirt ever will, aside from tree/branch impailment. I think the people who ride these machines anywhere near a car are absolute nuts, its suicidal to me. At least when I fall in the dirt, I don't get hit by a 2 ton wrecking ball right afterwards. Edited May 18, 2021 by Unipsycho 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottie888 Posted May 18, 2021 Share Posted May 18, 2021 1 hour ago, Unipsycho said: At least when I fall in the dirt, I don't get hit by a 2 ton wrecking ball right afterwards. No you don't but you do have the golden opportunity to fall off multi tens of ft drops the way you climb up em dirt hills! LOLz just playing with ya Mike. You're too good unlike me which is why I don't follow you up those nasty stuff. I do agree that mixing it with multi ton steel behemoths is far from smart. IMO its no coincidence that the 2 confirmed EUC fatalities involves getting run over by them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Mike Sacristan Posted May 18, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted May 18, 2021 The hill I call Dream Hill is 20-25 degrees. We have gone up on a Tesla, MSX 84v, 16X, Nikola, 18XL and even an MCM5 67v. Daniel is a heavy rider.. but still.. he was not grinding up which is usually even worse for our wheels. Regarding falling and rolling... at high speed it would be a mistake to try to roll. If we fall because of a pure cutout like the one I had on my Nikola 2664Wh from 1Rad (after 7000km)... then we will just go down. Stand up... fall forward. The end. There is no launching ourselves forward off a dead wheel into a somersault. There is no running it off. Unless you want to twist your ankle too. Same story at 40kmh... same story at 50kmh... etc. You will hit just as hard going down and then you will slide for X depending on speed. If you can land into a push up from standing then you can survive a fall. If you land into a hard plank kiss your shoulders goodbye. If you want to try it with wrist guards go ahead. If you can't fall into a push up... well consider doing what it takes to learn to do so. It will at least be a good indicator of a decent body weight / athletic body. Not everything can be fixed with money and gear. The other day I was practicing burn outs on wet artificial grass. At one point I managed to over lean the MSX at 1 mph... landed on my stomach and my deak and ballz. Because now we are using more and more locked configs... I remember the old thread about spiked pedals being a death trap. Now we are in full commitment mode. Spiked pedals, foot locks. #saferiding. Got the wind knocked out of me and felt like I got kicked in the balls at the same time. Fun stuff. And why? Because my hands slid out when they touched the wet grass. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronin Ryder Posted May 18, 2021 Share Posted May 18, 2021 6 hours ago, Mike Sacristan said: If we fall because of a pure cutout like t. I remember the old thread about spiked pedals being a death trap. Now we are in full commitment mode. Spiked pedals, foot locks. #saferiding. Pads locking the rider down are death traps, especially with spiked pedals..... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rehab1 Posted May 18, 2021 Share Posted May 18, 2021 21 minutes ago, Ronin Ryder said: Pads locking the rider down are death traps, especially with spiked pedals..... So true 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottie888 Posted May 18, 2021 Share Posted May 18, 2021 38 minutes ago, Ronin Ryder said: Pads locking the rider down are death traps, especially with spiked pedals..... I've been thinking about that lately & I'm not so sure. I wouldn't mind trying a cycling type clip-on system on the lead foot. In theory at least, that would seem much better than pads & would help loads on landings. It also would negate spike pedals on 1 side at least. Or maybe clip-on 1side & smaller jump pads on the other. Its an interesting thought experiment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5Cauac Posted May 18, 2021 Share Posted May 18, 2021 (edited) 11 hours ago, Ronin Ryder said: Pads locking the rider down are death traps, especially with spiked pedals..... I think what makes Pads a "Death trap" is the part preventing the foot from moving BACK. I have DIY jump pads on my wheel but made sure to not have anything at the back of the heels. This along with the Russian Pads for the S18 is a good combo for me and feel I can get a decent lock on my wheel. Even with spiked pedals your feet would be able to detach from the pedals in the case of an unfortunate event. Edited May 19, 2021 by 5Cauac Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
litewave Posted May 19, 2021 Share Posted May 19, 2021 On 5/14/2021 at 10:19 AM, Skeptikos said: Do you have a vague idea about the relative frequency of those two different types of broken shoulders? I'm hoping to stay out of the broken shoulder club and I'm wondering how worried I should be about each of these. I guess they're both kind of common? No, not really, but I am certain @Rehab1 does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Montpetit Posted May 19, 2021 Share Posted May 19, 2021 17 hours ago, Mike Sacristan said: If you can land into a push up from standing then you can survive a fall I agree 100% on that. I remember seeing the video in which you suggested something to the effect that we should practice falling to a position something akin to a plank. It seems that has evolved to a push up position. Correct me if I'm wrong Mike. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daley1 Posted May 19, 2021 Share Posted May 19, 2021 On 5/15/2021 at 1:53 AM, GoGeorgeGo said: I think dual control boards is an absolute must. It woyldnt add much weight and the costs are well worth it. Like with an airplane, a mechanical failure ensure catastrophic events. Having a redundant system should be an obvious necessity in the industry. As for rolling out of a fall, here is my buddy ray rolling out of a fall skip to the last minute for his roll out. the only person ive ever seen fall gracefully and look a million dollars doin it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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