Suspension for Skate Park YEA or NAY?

[Weaves]

Im looking between the RS 19 and the S18 for off-roading and freestyling.

When it comes to tricks and messing around does suspension help or hinder performance?

This might be counter-intuitive but here's my examples:

Against Suspension:
When it comes to something like BMX you usually go stiff. You don't want the suspension of a mountain bike.

For Suspension:
When it comes to a ski park you want some soft wood-core twin tips that are lighter for tricks and springier for landings. Your not gonna bring a hefty pair of race skis with metal and reinforced core.

My worry is that the S18 will give me range anxiety, but the helpful people in discord pointed out taking stops and fast charging. On the other hand I'm afraid of breaking the RS's shaft/bearings.

I'm not asking which wheel is better, I'm more focused on the idea of suspension for tricks and jumps without built landings.

[Scottie888]

For hard jumps, S18 FTW for obvious reasons. Lighter & suspension makes it easier to manoeuvre & land. Def will be much easier on the knees & back if nothing else.

Far's RS, I would submit the older MSPt would be more suitable. Again, lighter, more battery & proven solid axle/bearing.

As to which is better btwn S18 & MSPt, it would be down to rider preference & style. There's no doubt the MSPt would have the advantage in power & tire options.

As for strictly skateparks tricks, I submit the MCM5v2 will likely top either of the above. Much much lighter with great torque & even more nimbleness.

IMO ofcos. Its always gonna be a YMMV

Edited May 8, 2021 by Scottie888

[mrelwood]

Sounds like you’re definitely looking for a compromise, which makes it tricky for others to recommend. For tricks only: MCM5 v2, for jumps only: suspension, for technical off-road only: GW... So it’s about how you balance these features.

A good thing about suspension wheels in general is that you can dial in the shock as you like, and sounds like pumping it very hard would be great for you.

 The showstopper issue with the S18 still remains with the latest batch, being a suspension mechanism that may be badly stuck due to horribly bad manufacturing. Some people claim that theirs’ work great without mods/fixes, but having no reference point, it’s impossible to say how they really are. All four units I’ve ridden were simply in a state of a horrible waste of components, despite one rider being happy about how it functions as his only reference point was a wheel without suspension in the first place.

 One rider has used closer to two dozen work hours trying to get the suspension working, a few of which I took part as well. His S18 suspension now finally works well, although it still drags the fender against the shell with a loud noise.

One point is that without suspension the S18 would never be recommended to or by anyone. It’s simply not a very good wheel. In that sense, if your knees can take it, the MSP would definitely tick a lot more boxes. And pains me to say it, but it also has a more quality feel to it.

[Weaves]

Just now, mrelwood said:

issue with the S18 still remains with the latest batch, being a suspension mechanism that may be badly stuck due to horribly bad manufacturing. Some people claim that theirs’ work great without mods/fixes, but having no reference point, it’s impossible to say how they really are. All four units I’ve ridden were simply in a state of a horrible waste of components, despite one rider being happy about how it functions as his only reference point was a wheel without suspension in the first place.

 One rider has used closer to two dozen work hours trying to get the suspension working, a few of which I took part as well. His S18 suspension now finally works well, although it still drags the fender against the shell with a loud noise.

I feel like there is an information split especially with YouTube recommendations.  On one account Im getting told just how amazing the S18 and on another account its all about the V11.  

Going a bit off topic... If I am buying a wheel I don't have that much money $2000+/- is my pricing.  I feel like the McMv2 is something that I will buy and like but want to move on from within a year.  The S19 look like what I want to do the most while the RS seems like the one I should buy overall.  I want the ability to go off jumps and do 4ft ft drops to flat ground. Stairs are also a big thing I want to be able to do.

 

2 hours ago, Scottie888 said:

Far's RS, I would submit the older MSPt would be more suitable. Again, lighter, more battery & proven solid axle/bearing.

As for strictly skateparks tricks, I submit the MCM5v2 will likely top either of the above. Much much lighter with great torque & even more nimbleness.

Unless I can find an amazing price used, financing is a huge issues for me so I would need to buy new.  There are no MSPt sold new anywhere. I can afford $200 a month but not $2000 up front.

The reason I bring skate parks into the picture is because I want to be able to mess around in complex trick environment other than MTB jumps with proper landings. I wont actually be in skate parks I just wanted to see what people would say.  I will mostly be in off-roading environments and poor road conditions.

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Thanks you two!  You have really helped me out.  Im starting to shift more towards RS19 HT vs RS19 HS and V11 vs S19. Im hoping to buy and get something by the end of May.

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If anyone has more advise I'm still looking for as much as possible and deeply apricate your time!

[mrelwood]

28 minutes ago, Weaves said:

On one account Im getting told just how amazing the S18 and on another account its all about the V11.  

I have noticed that most of the ones who adore the S18 have not ridden the V11 for more than half a mile, if at all.

 But, while the V11 is light years ahead of the S18 in almost all aspects, it does have it’s issues as well. All hollow bore motors require an additional bearing shield, or the risk of noisy bearings is a bit too high. Also, the stock V11 suspension sliding mechanism can wear out in about 3000km, and is not the best design for very harsh hardcore off-roading. So, while much better, not perfect.

[Weaves]

@mrelwood 

With a bit of research I found what you were talking about.  Its weird that I didn't find any of this discussion on other videos on YouTube or in the comments.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHXV2dZ4f9w

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZEthycF_H4

But after watching some more videos Im back to thinking about the S18 and V11 over anything else.  The S18 seems to be the best suited for the trails I'm going to be using.  It seems like I'll be doing trails over sidewalks over roads with the rural area I live in.

Counter productively I kinda like the idea of taking the S18 apart.  I already do a lot of soldering and custom connectors for PC building and microcontrollers.

 

[meepmeepmayer]

Check out Chooch Tech on Youtube. He has some skate park videos. He's using his MCM5 there mostly, if I remember correctly. A 25+kg 18 incher like the S18 or RS might be a bit too heavy and unwieldy for tricks. Maybe he also has some videos with heavier wheels there.

For any offroading and tricks he is the guy to watch! See what he does with the S18 and the msuper series wheels (the RS is the latest there) and you might get an idea if there are differences between suspension and no suspension.

[Weaves]

From my research suspension does help with the durability of the axle in rough environments. Here's an image of the terrain I see around where I live.
https://imgur.com/a/AGZhqve

9 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said:

If you are having to finance a wheel, do you really have extra $$ laying around to sink in working on it and buying parts? I am thinkng that a 4' drop on most wheels, will risk damage to them after not too long. If i didnt have ANY wheels, and didnt have ANY spare $$, I think I would stick with most reliable and be nice to it. Nothing worse than paying on something you can't even use. I'd vote on saving up and buying used as an option as well. DOnt fool yourself into thinking that a suspension on a wheel is going to make it much more durable.

I am a college student with loans.  The issue is that I don't have savings. Purchases around $500 are doable every so often and financing of around $100 - 200 a month is not an issue what so ever for me. I'm talking about paying $2000 for a used wheel with cash within the next week. In a couple years I will easily have the disposable income but I want to try and get started by the end of the month.

I was looking at the Kingsong 16XS for a bit.  Has an easier entry price and can upgraded later with an additional battery pack. But if I'm paying $2,000 I'd rather get the most out of it with the RS.

I really enjoyed your post it sounded like it had a lot of passion and care behind it.
 

9 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said:

of the best suspension one can have.... your knees. Just like in skateboarding, a 4' drop is all in techinque as we all know its easy to break trucks or boards when done wrong.  Knees are the best, as they can do technical, big drops or simply smooth. If ya got em and they work, use em! Suspension is an added bonus. Battery, torque, agility and durability is more a core need..

Side Note: I got a couple friends who skied moguls at an international level.  They've all lost an inch in height and ground their knees down to their bones in their pre 20's.  It's something they accepted, but I don't think that's for me.
 

11 hours ago, mrelwood said:

I have noticed that most of the ones who adore the S18 have not ridden the V11 for more than half a mile, if at all.

 But, while the V11 is light years ahead of the S18 in almost all aspects, it does have it’s issues as well. All hollow bore motors require an additional bearing shield, or the risk of noisy bearings is a bit too high. Also, the stock V11 suspension sliding mechanism can wear out in about 3000km, and is not the best design for very harsh hardcore off-roading. So, while much better, not perfect.

The hollow motor design is what Im really worried about. The RS HT seems like what I want but IDK if I could really use it for trail riding.  On low level MTB paths and out west it seems to work great, but I live in a hilly, wet, and root infested environment.  If I was just focused on road/sidewalk riding I would go RS HS.

 

[.....]

17 minutes ago, Weaves said:

I really enjoyed your post it sounded like it had a lot of passion and care behind it.

How ironic. I read that back and decided it sounded awfully patronizing and removed it. Glad you werent offended. Figures I would delete it JUST as you were quoting it. Welcome and don't mind me, im simply a nut being chased by squirrels.

Edited May 8, 2021 by ShanesPlanet

[Weaves]

3 minutes ago, ShanesPlanet said:

How ironic. I read that back and decided it sounded awfully patronizing and removed it. Glad you werent offended. Figures I would delete it JUST as you were quoting it. Welcome and don't mind me, im simply a nut being chased by squirrels.

It was worded like a father telling his son not to make a stupid decision.  Especially in engineering most poor choices are from a lack of scrutiny.

[.....]

20 minutes ago, Weaves said:

It was worded like a father telling his son not to make a stupid decision.  Especially in engineering most poor choices are from a lack of scrutiny.

Your attitude will more than likely serve you well in the future. MUCH better than mine has served me. My best advice is.... follow your gut and get a wheel. If its new with warranty, you have less to worry as well. No matter what you decide...get to it! Each day you wait is a day you've lost.  RIding an euc is a GREAT feeling. The reason us riders pay so much and overlook so much... the ride baby the ride! IN the end, its your wheel, your skin, your $$ and your joy.

On a side note... once you learn to ride, you will start wondering how to afford another wheel. Its not that you will outgrow your first, its that youll simply want MORE of a good thing. Multiple wheels is JUST how it HAS to be I don't own a single wheel that I've outgrown. If you intend to take the wheel to classes, be sure you are prepared to trolley it with you. Theft is still a thing in USA...

Edited May 8, 2021 by ShanesPlanet

[Scottie888]

Seems like (maybe perhaps...😁) the new IM V12 might be the better fit for your allround needs. From the reviews so far, seems its very nimble despite the pork. Pretty fast & the easily adjustable pedals makes it very dirt friendly with decent range.

Plus all the newest latest mostest bestest gadgetry we've seen on a wheel (for now). & no hollow bearing anxiety either.

[RockyTop]

I have the S18. I love it!!  I got the first batch delivered early. I paid $250 to have it flown in. I did have to make a few quick adjustments to it. Oiled rails, removed blocks and replaced a few washers. It took about an hour. True, I should not have had to do that but I believe they have that fixed now.  That said, I would NOT consider the S18 to be a trick wheel unless going down stairs is a trick. I have played around in a skate park with the S18. I would rather have just about any other wheel for that.  IMHO The geometry does not favor steep ramps without speed or quick turns. 

[Unipilot69]

8 hours ago, Weaves said:

From my research suspension does help with the durability of the axle in rough environments. Here's an image of the terrain I see around where I live.
https://imgur.com/a/AGZhqve

I am a college student with loans.  The issue is that I don't have savings. Purchases around $500 are doable every so often and financing of around $100 - 200 a month is not an issue what so ever for me. I'm talking about paying $2000 for a used wheel with cash within the next week. In a couple years I will easily have the disposable income but I want to try and get started by the end of the month.

I was looking at the Kingsong 16XS for a bit.  Has an easier entry price and can upgraded later with an additional battery pack. But if I'm paying $2,000 I'd rather get the most out of it with the RS.

I really enjoyed your post it sounded like it had a lot of passion and care behind it.
 

Side Note: I got a couple friends who skied moguls at an international level.  They've all lost an inch in height and ground their knees down to their bones in their pre 20's.  It's something they accepted, but I don't think that's for me.
 

The hollow motor design is what Im really worried about. The RS HT seems like what I want but IDK if I could really use it for trail riding.  On low level MTB paths and out west it seems to work great, but I live in a hilly, wet, and root infested environment.  If I was just focused on road/sidewalk riding I would go RS HS.

 

I have an RS HS and I take it on hiking paths and mountain trails. I usually overheat it on the very steep sections. I just let it cool and keep going. I received it as a gift. The HT version would have served me better. It never stops raining here and the trails here are full of roots. I had my bearings go bad after 150 miles. eWheels sent me replacements. Very easy to change out. I now have 570 miles on it. No more issues. I repacked the bearings with marine grease.  Check out the EUC BROS YouTube channel. They run the RS's very hard. Mike Leahy jumps the piss out of his. They hold up fairly well. Just need to pad them up and do some waterproofing. I think the hollow motors are stronger than the traditional axles. Even with the shitty bearings. At my weight I probably would have snapped an axle by now even if I had the Sherman.

[YourAubsome]

I have a S18 (got it a month ago) and I the main problem I would have using it at the skate park is lack of torque. I'm also 6'4'' 210 lbs. I was riding on a mountain bike trail a couple weeks ago and I braked hard on a large bank turn and the wheel immediately cut out from being over powered (at 70% battery). I have to be very careful with the wheel because I can overpower it so easily and a stake park is a place where I would need a ton of torque. If your much lighter than me (around 160 lbs or less) then the S18 would likely suffice in torque for this type of riding. I think the suspension would only be helpful at a skate park; you can make it as light or stuff as you want and quickly lock it out for certain tricks.

Edited May 11, 2021 by sevin7
typo

[RockyTop]

46 minutes ago, sevin7 said:

I have a S18 (got it a month ago) and I the main problem I would have using it at the skate park is lack of torque. I'm also 6'4'' 210 lbs. I was riding on a mountain bike trail a couple weeks ago and I braked hard on a large bank turn and the wheel immediately cut out from being over powered (at 70% battery). I have to be very careful with the wheel because I can overpower it so easily and a stake park is a place where I would need a ton of torque. If your much lighter than me (around 160 lbs or less) then the S18 would likely suffice in torque for this type of riding. I think the suspension would only be helpful at a skate park; you can might it as light or stuff as you want and quickly lock it out for certain tricks.

Same problem here. However most places don't have mountain bike trails like ours. We have some wicked ups and downs here in the South East. (Georgia, Tennessee, North Carolina and surrounding areas). It goes up and down while going up or down. If I am just cruising the trails the S18 is fine but when the hammer is down I need some kind of MSX or better. 

[YourAubsome]

5 minutes ago, RockyTop said:

Same problem here. However most places don't have mountain bike trails like ours. We have some wicked ups and downs here in the South East. (Georgia, Tennessee, North Carolina and surrounding areas). It goes up and down while going up or down. If I am just cruising the trails the S18 is fine but when the hammer is down I need some kind of MSX or better. 

I'm in Georgia, where are you at?

[RockyTop]

I worked in North Atlanta for two years. I stayed in hotels near the Big Chicken and a few weeks in Gainesville and Toccoa. Have you ever gone to Alabama on the Silver Commit trail? That is fun. 120 miles of old rail road bed converted to paved bicycle paths. I stopped at a few restaurants to charge back up. 

Edited May 12, 2021 by RockyTop

[mrelwood]

5 hours ago, sevin7 said:

I braked hard on a large bank turn and the wheel immediately cut out from being over powered

Actually it sounds more plausible that the wheel tilted beyond the motor cutoff angle. That happens quite easily in banked turns. Besides, when overpowered, the wheel doesn’t immediately cut off, it justgoes soft until it tilts beyond the cut off angle and only then cuts off the motor.

I think you can increase the cutoff angle from the KS app though. Or from the maintenance app. Sorry, I’m not that well on track with KS anymore.

Edited May 12, 2021 by mrelwood

[fbhb]

6 hours ago, mrelwood said:

I think you can increase the cutoff angle from the KS app though. Or from the maintenance app. Sorry, I’m not that well on track with KS anymore.

@mrelwood is correct, the cutoff angle may well have been the culprit in this instance and it can be increased in the KS app as he stated, or preferably by using the far more reliable/less intrusive EUC World app!

I recently made this very change by altering the standard factory setting on my own S18, using the slider option in EUC World.

Edited May 12, 2021 by fbhb

[YourAubsome]

5 hours ago, fbhb said:

@mrelwood is correct, the cutoff angle may well have been the culprit in this instance and it can be increased in the KS app as he stated, or preferably by using the far more reliable/less intrusive EUC World app!

I recently made this very change by altering the standard factory setting on my own S18, using the slider option in EUC World.

Thanks I'm going to look into the cutoff angle settings. That may be what happened in this case, but it doesn't change the fact that the S18 beeps at me every time I forget to be super soft on acceleration and braking. I have also had it cutoff many times while trying to push it up short and steep ascents on mountain bike trails.

 

12 hours ago, RockyTop said:

Chattanooga TN....  I worked in North Atlanta for two years. I stayed in hotels near the Big Chicken and a few weeks in Gainesville and Toccoa. Have you ever gone to Alabama on the Silver Commit trail? That is fun. 120 miles of old rail road bed converted to paved bicycle paths. I stopped at a few restaurants to charge back up. 

I live in Marietta 15 minutes from the Big Chicken. I've been on the Silver Comet many times on my bike but have yet to try it on a wheel, I think I'll be doing that soon

[Mike Sacristan]

Skate parks can be plenty of fun. I prefer stiff wheels and I prefer 18" class.
My MSX can do anything I want to do and so can an 18XL.
The only thing better would be an MSP HT (a bit heavier) or RS HT (even heavier) because of the C38 magnets.

I have overpowered my 16X a few times at skate parks. An S18 would be even easier to overpower.
A wheel with suspension would steal your energy when trying to preload for a jump.

I weigh 140lbs and my MSX is my go to wheel for tricks.
I have skipped through magnets doing clumsy landings a jump to 180... but that's about it.
On an MSP HT you could get a similar skipping if you weigh 225lbs.
The RS HT has the benefit of a more robust axle system = less change of bending an axle.

Considering how many times we will drop the wheel at a skate park you might want to rethink about the angle adjustment.
You haven't seen hell until you have dropped your wheel, it bounces and spins up again, bounces and spins up again, etc... since it will refuse to cut off power at 45 degrees. 5kmh speed requirement be damned... it will definitely be spinning at 5kmh at least.

Go find a nice big round silver tray and drop it on the ground.. now watch in awe as it just goes on and on and on.

[.....]

7 hours ago, Mike Sacristan said:

Skate parks can be plenty of fun. I prefer stiff wheels and I prefer 18" class.
My MSX can do anything I want to do and so can an 18XL.
The only thing better would be an MSP HT (a bit heavier) or RS HT (even heavier) because of the C38 magnets.

I have overpowered my 16X a few times at skate parks. An S18 would be even easier to overpower.
A wheel with suspension would steal your energy when trying to preload for a jump.

I weigh 140lbs and my MSX is my go to wheel for tricks.
I have skipped through magnets doing clumsy landings a jump to 180... but that's about it.
On an MSP HT you could get a similar skipping if you weigh 225lbs.
The RS HT has the benefit of a more robust axle system = less change of bending an axle.

Considering how many times we will drop the wheel at a skate park you might want to rethink about the angle adjustment.
You haven't seen hell until you have dropped your wheel, it bounces and spins up again, bounces and spins up again, etc... since it will refuse to cut off power at 45 degrees. 5kmh speed requirement be damned... it will definitely be spinning at 5kmh at least.

Go find a nice big round silver tray and drop it on the ground.. now watch in awe as it just goes on and on and on.

This man knows...  

What I'm reading sounds about perfect sense. Of note, most park skaters dont have suspension on their boards. Skate parks are more about technical ability and definitely durability. Bmx track is different. Off roading is different. Hard tail, indestructable, reliable and compact are what I would lean on if I was thinking of using a skate park as it was intended. My skating career has earned me some broken wrists. Crumpling into a heap at the bottom of a ramp is a little tougher on you than a slide out. Those stair rails arent friendly either. I prefer to go fast now, as i find it safer than the evil skateparks

Edited May 12, 2021 by ShanesPlanet

[mrelwood]

On 5/12/2021 at 3:04 PM, Mike Sacristan said:

Considering how many times we will drop the wheel at a skate park you might want to rethink about the angle adjustment.

I don’t think one can turn it off on a KS, just setting it a bit higher would do the trick (so to say). It doesn’t take much to enable quite a bit faster speeds on banked turns already.

 And personally, I’d even choose the wildest of GW dances over the wheel turning off while riding.

 But Mike is probably one of the most experienced skate park riders there is, experience is much more valuable than a random “imo”. 

[Mike Sacristan]

10 hours ago, mrelwood said:

I don’t think one can turn it off on a KS, just setting it a bit higher would do the trick (so to say). It doesn’t take much to enable quite a bit faster speeds on banked turns already.

 And personally, I’d even choose the wildest of GW dances over the wheel turning off while riding.

 But Mike is probably one of the most experienced skate park riders there is, experience is much more valuable than a random “imo”. 

I have fallen off the front and back of my 16X taking banked turns. It is definitely not fun. My friend Micke lowered the angle on his EXN and rode a banked area and still cut off lol... he just cut off at a higher speed! So yeah I guess I just don't see banked turns as skate park riding.  Although I would love a Cirque de Soleil full 360 riding on the inside of a sphere haha.

I will usually just stick to my jumps and twists and stuff like that. 

But like you say.. it is the Gotway dance all over again lol.