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Can the POC Helmet with chin guard be enough for EUC?


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Posted (edited)

Interesting video for sure, however I am not entirely sure that the mod improves safety as expected.

Since the second chin guard is only fixed in place with two zip ties, a hit will likely move it out of place, providing little if any additional strength.

Only if the angle of the hit is perfectly aligned, then it could provide some extra strength, but it's rather unlikely.

Then since the extra chin guard will slide, where it will end up is rather unpredictable.  It might hit your face somewhere, which would not have happened otherwise.
Unless the shock is not perfectly centered, one of the side of this hard loose item next to your face can end up doing a lot of damage including to one or your eyes.

Unless both chin guards become one with a very strong bond (epoxy glue?) I would suggest to reconsider this mod.
There are many way it could go wrong, while in the same scenario the unmodified config would have been safe.

Edited by supercurio
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Posted (edited)

Great video!

I have the same reason: I do not want to look aggressively.

The protection of my maxilla is very important to me, because I have seen destroyed and scraped maxillas. My helmet has the hanger made of metal (no breakaway system). --> Yours is designed to break away at a high impact. So the impact my stands is higher. But there is one concern: that hanger is a long lever. So having removed the fear of a disfigured face, I have to be aware of a broken columna vertebralis - much worse. So at least I must'nt slide backwards. I think at sliding forwards the helmet can move towards my chest enough.

IMG-20201221-221311.jpg

 

Edited by Boris Lämpel
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, supercurio said:

Interesting video for sure, however I am not entirely sure that the mod improves safety as expected.

Since the second chin guard is only fixed in place with two zip ties, a hit will likely move it out of place, providing little if any additional strength.

Only if the angle of the hit is perfectly aligned, then it could provide some extra strength, but it's rather unlikely.

Then since the extra chin guard will slide, where it will end up is rather unpredictable.  It might hit your face somewhere, which would not have happened otherwise.
Unless the shock is not perfectly centered, one of the side of this hard loose item next to your face can end up doing a lot of damage including to one or your eyes.

Unless both chin guards become one with a very strong bond (epoxy glue?) I would suggest to reconsider this mod.
There are many way it could go wrong, while in the same scenario the unmodified config would have been safe.

In between the chin guards are double sided tape with 30 lb. strength. It is super strong and also helps in absorption of impact. I have since used really strong black paracord to further reinforce the 2 ends. I did not want to permanently glue the chin guards for now but I might in the future.

Edited by Ethereal
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1 hour ago, Boris Lämpel said:

Great video!

I have the same reason: I do not want to look aggressively.

The protection of my maxilla is very important to me, because I have seen destroyed and scraped maxillas. My helmet has the hanger made of metal (no breakaway system). --> Yours is designed to break away at a high impact. So the impact my stands is higher. But there is one concern: that hanger is a long lever. So having removed the fear of a disfigured face, I have to be aware of a broken columna vertebralis - much worse. So at least I must'nt slide backwards. I think at sliding forwards the helmet can move towards my chest enough.

IMG-20201221-221311.jpg

 

I was looking for a stronger chin guard version of POC's but did not see this model. Was it discontinued? My 2021 version has 3 settings for the release of the chin guard. There is low release, high release and no release. I set mine to no release mode. Your point regarding increased risk of cervical neck fracture with your version is a valid one. All rigid full face helmets have that risk. This is why paying attention while riding is so crucial and another reason why I will not be riding super fast as in greater than 40 mph. Reaction time is decreased with greater speed.

I will only be using my POC helmet on rides with OneWheelers and slow mellow rides. There are more options to mitigate a face plant at slow speed. I can run a crash out, do a proper tuck and roll, as well as slide brake as I did when roller blading.

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9 minutes ago, Ethereal said:

Was it discontinued?

Mine is a POC skull. It is an older model. The newer ones all have the maxilla breakaway system. I suppose for slalom skiing (that is what the helmet is designed for) the chin guard should break at too high impacts to protect the neck. But sliding on snow is better than on asphalt...

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3 hours ago, supercurio said:

Interesting video for sure, however I am not entirely sure that the mod improves safety as expected.

+1. Did not really watch the whole video - as the youtuber said such a flimsy chinguard does not offer good protection. Even a mod by making this whole helmet out of  vibranium would not help against faceplants... Such a construction can never prevent the face from hitting the road with an EUC typical frontal faceplant.

Could be some great stuff against brain concussions with super duper silicon inlays and whatnotever - perfect maybe for many sports.

Nothing that would make me confidentially taking the frontal faceplant.

But yes - i'd really like to have something this light and elegant beeing helpfull against faceplants!

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5 minutes ago, Chriull said:

+1. Did not really watch the whole video - as the youtuber said such a flimsy chinguard does not offer good protection. Even a mod by making this whole helmet out of  vibranium would not help against faceplants... Such a construction can never prevent the face from hitting the road with an EUC typical frontal faceplant.

Could be some great stuff against brain concussions with super duper silicon inlays and whatnotever - perfect maybe for many sports.

Nothing that would make me confidentially taking the frontal faceplant.

But yes - i'd really like to have something this light and elegant beeing helpfull against faceplants!

With what is currently available in the market regarding a full face helmet that does not cover most of the face and not looking so aggressive, the POC Arctic SL 360 SPIN is the only viable option. As I said in the video, I will be using the POC for slow rides and not for my fast rides with groups. A slow ride enables me to have greater reaction time and have a better chance at mitigating a true face plant crash.

The advantages of a crash at slow speed  will allow me to run out a crash, possibly do an appropriate tuck and roll, and even do a sliding brake on my knee pads and wrist guards similar to a roller blade fall brake. I actually showed a slalom rider suffer a faceplant crash and the POC chinguard was still intact. My mod basically doubled its strength. Since the video came out, I have already further reinforced the ends with thick paracord on top of the zip ties. I also wound multiple times a thin black paracord string midline on the chin guard for further securement. 

I disagree about the vibranium unable to prevent a faceplant but unfortunately I do not have vibranium nor adamantium : )

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POC Arctic SL 360 SPIN is not certified for road use. Snow is much more forgiving than road or vehicle. Doubling the chin guard doesn't make the mounting of it any stronger. That's were the momentum is the greatest. This is certainly a very low speed solution, better than nothing.

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1 hour ago, Eucner said:

POC Arctic SL 360 SPIN is not certified for road use. Snow is much more forgiving than road or vehicle. Doubling the chin guard doesn't make the mounting of it any stronger. That's were the momentum is the greatest. This is certainly a very low speed solution, better than nothing.

AFAIK that guard isn’t made for hitting the ground anyway, but rather for brushing off slalom marking poles or branches..

That helmet is really slick and I’d love a full face that managed such a compact chin guard. This isn’t one though, sadly. It might be better than nothing at slow speed, it should absorb some force, but it can’t be presented as a full face helmet alternative..

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4 hours ago, Eucner said:

POC Arctic SL 360 SPIN is not certified for road use. Snow is much more forgiving than road or vehicle. Doubling the chin guard doesn't make the mounting of it any stronger. That's were the momentum is the greatest. This is certainly a very low speed solution, better than nothing.

I agree. I even stressed in the video that I would be using the POC on slow rides and not with my need for speed crew. 
I reinforced the chin guard as added reassurance should I have a low speed crash. 

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2 hours ago, null said:

AFAIK that guard isn’t made for hitting the ground anyway, but rather for brushing off slalom marking poles or branches..

That helmet is really slick and I’d love a full face that managed such a compact chin guard. This isn’t one though, sadly. It might be better than nothing at slow speed, it should absorb some force, but it can’t be presented as a full face helmet alternative..

I love the POC minimalist look and that SPIN component got me more interested. It is certainly better than no chin guard at all. This will only be for my slow rides. The Bell helmet will be my go to for the fast rides. 
I even stressed in the video that the POC is not a substitute for a true full face helmet. For slow rides, I feel confident that the POC reinforced chin guard will at least (even if the chin guard breaks) decrease the extent of injury to my face. 

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3 minutes ago, Ethereal said:

I love the POC minimalist look and that SPIN component got me more interested. It is certainly better than no chin guard at all. This will only be for my slow rides. The Bell helmet will be my go to for the fast rides. 
I even stressed in the video that the POC is not a substitute for a true full face helmet. For slow rides, I feel confident that the POC reinforced chin guard will at least (even if the chin guard breaks) decrease the extent of injury to my face. 

Thanks, yes I just had to remind it for general purpose, sorry :) - Anyhow, as a guy on the French forum mentioned, maybe we dont do quite as much chin planting as we fear. As for low speed the forces are indeed quite different.

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26 minutes ago, Ethereal said:

I reinforced the chin guard as added reassurance should I have a low speed crash. 

That would work as you planned in many load cases. The added rigidity can also increase momentum at the mounting point when force is introduced by displacement. For example when sliding chin first on the road. It is hard to tell from the video, if the mounting point is strong enough.

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25 minutes ago, Eucner said:

That would work as you planned in many load cases. The added rigidity can also increase momentum at the mounting point when force is introduced by displacement. For example when sliding chin first on the road. It is hard to tell from the video, if the mounting point is strong enough.

I used extra strength double sided tape in between the two chin guards to add some absorption of impact. Since the video came out I have added further reinforcement to both sides where the zip ties are. I wound multiple times a thin paracord string  on both end sides. I also further wound multiple times the same thin paracord midline on the two chin guards. I am more confident now this can take a good beating. 🤓😂
 

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30 minutes ago, Ethereal said:

I used extra strength double sided tape in between the two chin guards to add some absorption of impact. Since the video came out I have added further reinforcement to both sides where the zip ties are. I wound multiple times a thin paracord string  on both end sides. I also further wound multiple times the same thin paracord midline on the two chin guards. I am more confident now this can take a good beating. 🤓😂
 

Yes, that would help for chin guard flexing from the middle and touching your face. Please also note, that rigid construction transfers more momentum than flexible. The most stressed parts at the base of chin guard and the mounting points are not reinforced at all. They will now break more easily.

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I tried the POC Arctic SL but ended up returning it as the chin bar is not wide enough. Ideal position of the bar should be in line with the bottom of the chin but even with the straps done tight, the helmet still moves around enough to put the bar out of position and falls being as messy as they are, I don't see it staying in the correct position long enough to make a difference. I also don't like this "false confidence" of a safety device that may or may not work...I prefer going into a ride mentally ready for a fall based on how protected I am and what risks to take/not take during the ride are based on that.

Also it still gets in the way of eating which is the main reason I love wearing a skate helmet in summer when cruising around town and restaurant hopping to grab various snacks and drinks. There's nothing like the feeling of eating a pizza while bombing down the the street!!..although I have lost more than a few slices due to the wind!

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Posted (edited)

I get what you mean by the “false confidence”. This is why despite the reinforced mod I only plan to ride on slow rides. A slow ride crash will give me more reaction time to avoid a faceplant. I have crashed a few times on slow rides and nowhere did I even come close to a face plant. I was wearing my Bell Super 3R on those occasions too. I either ran out the crash or did a tuck and roll.
 

I am not a zombie rider and always ride like I could crash anytime by always having my legs slightly bent as well as having some mild carving on the ride. Should a crash unexpectedly occur, my riding position prepares me for the proper reaction.  
 

The POC helmet is so comfortable I actually forget I have it on. That and the SPIN effect got my vote. Despite the chin guard being flimsy, it is much better than no chin guard at all. 

Edited by Ethereal
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8 hours ago, Ethereal said:

Bell Super 3R

At the higher speeds I'm not having any fate on bike helmets with removable chin guard. You can't make it as sturdy as good fixed chin guard is.

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Hello, I discovered this video for a helmet unsuitable for EUCs. Protect your face with a real helmet. Think about the pleasant face you are showing today. Don't imagine a pieced together face that makes you and everyone else miserable after an accident.

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8 hours ago, varamontelo said:

Hello, I discovered this video for a helmet unsuitable for EUCs. Protect your face with a real helmet. Think about the pleasant face you are showing today. Don't imagine a pieced together face that makes you and everyone else miserable after an accident.

I appreciate your concern. Did you watch the video for the conditions I will use the helmet for?. For fast rides I will be using my Bell Super 3R. For slow mellow rides I will be using my POC helmet.
 

I have been riding for almost 6 years now and I have had my share of falls. I have my own way of preventing a face plant and will be able to use my technique quite effectively on slow rides. I love my face and want to show it to those around me on slow rides. 🤓😂

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9 hours ago, Eucner said:

At the higher speeds I'm not having any fate on bike helmets with removable chin guard. You can't make it as sturdy as good fixed chin guard is.

We have had a couple of NYC riders face plant  with the Bell Super 3R. The chin guard  was able to survive the crash. The securement on the chin guard is quite strong and behaves as if it is a fixed chin guard. 

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2 hours ago, Ethereal said:

We have had a couple of NYC riders face plant  with the Bell Super 3R. The chin guard  was able to survive the crash. The securement on the chin guard is quite strong and behaves as if it is a fixed chin guard. 

Thanks, good to know. The chin guard should be used all time. The convertible helmet doesn't give any advantage to the fixed one. It is just having an additional potentially weak point. I would also beware helmets having structural seam at the base of chin guard, like Fox Proframe. It is absolutely wrong place for potential weakness.

Fox Proframe crashed - design problem or material defect

In the test Under the Hammer: 6 of the latest lightweight or convertible MTB full face helmets Proframe was the reference helmet beating Bell Super 3R.

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I see you want to use this slow moving helmet, you are braver than me. Even the bell helmet scares me, I couldn't wear it, stopped. All these huge vents for the passage of a wasp in the moving head and here is a sting and a fall. Only one advantage is its weight.

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