Veteran Sherman V2 street tire: Kenda K340 or motorcycle/scooter tire?

[supercurio]

Hi everyone!

I'm ordering a Sherman V2 with wider rim and will swap the tire for summer riding.

I was gonna go for the Kenda K340: the Sherman street tire and stock Begode EX & EX.N tire after briefly trying @Mike Sacristan's EX.N and liking its turning behaviour.

However, after chatting with Denis Hagov from EUCSALE who much prefer motorcycle tires and seeing how @iWheel of Sweden also has a large collection of them, I wonder if there would be a better option?

I'm 65kg / 146 lbs and riding will be 70% street, 30% light-medium off-road.

My favourite tire so far is the Chao Yang H-5167 on the 16X, 21-25 PSI depending on conditions.
I don't like the CX-321 on 16X or stock CST tire on the Nikola: no appreciation for tramlining of square-ish profiles.

Tires considered:

• Kenda K340
• Pirelli Angel scooter rear
• Michelin City Pro
• Michelin Pilot Street

The main questions would be:

Will motorcycle tires be significantly stiffer off road, on gravel / rock / rooty terrain, lacking in suppleness of a lighter tire like the Kenda K340 and lacking grip outside of asphalt?
MC tires are designed for heavier vehicles with suspension after all.

What do you gain from a MC tire, what do you lose?

Would the thread pattern of Kenda K340 be best of these options for mixed surface riding?

What would be the right dimensions for the Sherman V2 and its 6cm wide rim.

Edit: after some more research, I realise that these are considered moped tires for the K340 (source) or scooter tires for the others (source Pirelli, source Michelin) - not bicycle vs motorcycle.

Edited May 2, 2021 by supercurio

[.....]

Probably doesnt help much, but I've grown fond of the stock sherman off road tire. Im about 90% street and 130lbs.  I suspect a motorcycle tire will be a somewhat less forgiving ride, as they are quite a bit harder with more plies. Mc tires are designed to operate at higher temps, so we may be losing a little of its performance on slow/light vehicles.  Depending on the profile, you may find a MC tire to offer much easier turning but at a small cost of straight line stability. Since traction isnt typically a limiting factor in accel or decell, you may also find a heavier moto tire will increase both accel and stop distances by a minor factor.  Im a BIG fan of Pirelli and always put those or Michelin's on my bikes. However, I dont see much need to bother with the sherman for now. MC tires ARE quality tho, so you are WAY more likely to NOT get one that has some defect or offline tracking. It is entirely possible youll like the sherm with the tire that comes on it. I dont think I'd be speculatiing about upgrades until you ride it 100 miles. The stock off road is VERY pliable and I find it damn comy for how it gives with the right pressures. WHo know, instead of a tire, you may wnat to spend that coin on some other farkle? I also saw Mikes vid. Such a unique shop for sure! DOnt take the sherman bars off, trust me. You want to use it to carry or catch the wheel. I rarely use my trolley, but the bars are lifesavers.

Best of luck, if you're a speed or range demon, you're gna enjoy the wheel!

Edited May 2, 2021 by ShanesPlanet

[supercurio]

Thanks @ShanesPlanet, I agree the stock knobby feels good already after trying @Rawnei brand new V2 this week.
It behaved really well, up to the beeps   but I'm getting the Sherman for the range.

Glad you enjoy so much yours, including by experimenting as I've seen in your videos!

The tire felt better than I remembered on the V1 launch demo in Stockholm , but also significantly better comparatively than the same tire on a MSP.
To be more specific, more predictable turning, easier precise control at low speed, almost to falling off the side and need to lift it back up.
I'm guessing it's part wider rim, part weight distribution & pedal height.

The main reason I want to switch to a street tire is to get rid of the noise. I'm sensitive to that and like quiet.

The knobby will be back on for all winter season tho! And around here, it lasts a while.

[.....]

1 hour ago, supercurio said:

Thanks @ShanesPlanet, I agree the stock knobby feels good already after trying @Rawnei brand new V2 this week.
It behaved really well, up to the beeps   but I'm getting the Sherman for the range.

Glad you enjoy so much yours, including by experimenting as I've seen in your videos!

The tire felt better than I remembered on the V1 launch demo in Stockholm , but also significantly better comparatively than the same tire on a MSP.
To be more specific, more predictable turning, easier precise control at low speed, almost to falling off the side and need to lift it back up.
I'm guessing it's part wider rim, part weight distribution & pedal height.

The main reason I want to switch to a street tire is to get rid of the noise. I'm sensitive to that and like quiet.

The knobby will be back on for all winter season tho! And around here, it lasts a while.

ah gotcha! Yeah, theres no doubt the tire makes a humm. I rather quite like it as it makes me feel like a beast. I totally get how you want a quieter one tho. The streets I ride are pretty grooved and bumpy. If I tended to ride manicured paths or better street more often, I would suspect a smoother moto type tire would be the ticket. The biggest reason I really like the offroad tire, is it just sucks up the bumps. Of course, this reason is also a downfall for rim protection and trying to get the least rolling resistance. Keep me posted what you find. Perhaps youll stumble across a QUALITY tire that behaves really well. I'm all for having a tire option that is not dice roll for balance and tracking. I must admit, the sherm is quite a beast for me to lay down at high speeds in turns. I assume it's rider error, but perhaps the offroad profile isnt helping much. It is ironic that im using offroad for primary street. I'd imagine with $$, there's better options, or I hope so.  Catch 22 tho. More nimble sometimes costs stablity straight line. Higher quality costs weight.  I hopeto get the wider rim installed this week, so perhaps thatll change things too. Hopefully you come up with an answer that minimizes the compromises and maximises the gains! Im about to dedicate my sherm for street. I guess I'm kinda ALL IN at this point in the $$ spent game. I'll definitely be eyeballing your results and findings! Anyhow, thanks for watching my vid. Just remember, Im typically full of sh**.

Edited May 2, 2021 by ShanesPlanet

[supercurio]

The knobs' sound act like an acoustic speedometer, which EUCs lack: an interesting property 

Yeah I was surprised by some roots growing underneath pavement on bike lanes... entirely disappearing with the knobby, whereas a standard tire would transmit at least something.
I guess the energy was dissipated between the knobs and carcass instead of reaching the rider: odd when you expect feedback!

I'm sure you'll like the new rim. Good luck with the install!

For now I'm leaning towards the Pirelli Angel Scooter rear tire, which is Denis Hagov's current choice on his EX.N. I'm lighter than him, the Sherman is a bit heavier..
I find his experience useful because he's one of few people who had the chance to test various mc/scooter tires on EUCs thanks to his business, while most of us stick to what the OEMs picked at some point. 
In Denis' words:

Quote

Nimble on low speed, stable on high speed: ideal for me.
It drives like a bike. Stable, good cornering 100% control accuracy - but it's only my opinion.

Sounds pretty good, right?

[.....]

Sounds good. I'd like to know how it sucks up the bumps too. I'm all for tire upgrade if it suits the needs. I wouldnt want to try it on the narrow version rim, but perhaps a good moto tire can be run at UBER low pressure, enabling it to somewhat mimic the cush of the stock offroader. Im a light weight guy, so its tough for me to sag a tire at standard pressures. I've seen Dennis wheels. Those do like like mini motos for sure. I'll give Dennis a shout, but i bet it wont take much to convince me to get another tire. Farkles ftw!!

Update... you and Dennis talked me into it. Pirelli Angel in 80/80/14. My buddy Retro also mentioned that perhaps a street oriented tire would suit me. I guess I will find out soon enough. Hopefully it eats small bumps and makes it easier to dive into those hi-speed turns. I was quite shocked at how inexpensive it was, relative to my last motorcycle pirellis.... I do enjoy the all terrain, so not much fear if the angel doesnt work out.

Edited May 3, 2021 by ShanesPlanet

[supercurio]

Update on findings so far

Michelin City Grip is a favourite of scooter OEM and riders for many years. It's renowned for its comfort and all weather performance.

Michelin City Grip 2 is considered improvement over the City Grip with more solid cornering, its heavier and has stiffer carcass, which I'm not sure it's a good or bad thing for EUC riding. However it's said to handle uneven road surfaces and city riding hazards great, including being little subject to tramlining.

Both Michelin City Grip tires are said to be good performers on wet and off-road thanks to their pronounced pattern, handling terrain, gravel, and even some mud competently.

Michelin City Pro seems to be more a more affordable, durability oriented, puncture resistant option with somewhat mixed results. Not as appreciated as the City Grip series.
@DjPanJanlikes the City Pro on his MSP however, comparing to the ChaoYang CYT H-5167 which is my favourite so far.
The City Pro visually looks like it has a taller profile than the City Grips, hence the nimbleness? Not sure.

Pirelli Angel Scooter has a higher profile compared to the City Grips, which makes steering a lot more dynamic. That might be a good thing to keep the wheel nimble, or a con for stability at high speed.
Fellow EUC riders tried it on their S18, and noted significant improvements on stability, lack of wobble compared to various stock S18 tires.
However it was noted that because it is stiffer, the Angel Scooter wasn't absorbing gravel and roots vibration off-road as well as the CY-H5102.

 

[Vulkov]

32 minutes ago, supercurio said:

Update on findings so far

Michelin City Grip is a favourite of scooter OEM and riders for many years. It's renowned for its comfort and all weather performance.

Michelin City Grip 2 is considered improvement over the City Grip with more solid cornering, its heavier and has stiffer carcass, which I'm not sure it's a good or bad thing for EUC riding. However it's said to handle uneven road surfaces and city riding hazards great, including being little subject to tramlining.

Both Michelin City Grip tires are said to be good performers on wet and off-road thanks to their pronounced pattern, handling terrain, gravel, and even some mud competently.

Michelin City Pro seems to be more a more affordable, durability oriented, puncture resistant option with somewhat mixed results. Not as appreciated as the City Grip series.
@DjPanJanlikes the City Pro on his MSP however, comparing to the ChaoYang CYT H-5167 which is my favourite so far.
The City Pro visually looks like it has a taller profile than the City Grips, hence the nimbleness? Not sure.

Pirelli Angel Scooter has a higher profile compared to the City Grips, which makes steering a lot more dynamic. That might be a good thing to keep the wheel nimble, or a con for stability at high speed.
Fellow EUC riders tried it on their S18, and noted significant improvements on stability, lack of wobble compared to various stock S18 tires.
However it was noted that because it is stiffer, the Angel Scooter wasn't absorbing gravel and roots vibration off-road as well as the CY-H5102.

 

Based on my limited search, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe the Michelin City Grip or Grip 2 to be available in a size that fits the Sherman. 

Here's another positive experience with the Michelin City Pro albeit on a much bigger wheel (Monster V3+)

[.....]

2 hours ago, Vulkov said:

Based on my limited search, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe the Michelin City Grip or Grip 2 to be available in a size that fits the Sherman. 

Here's another positive experience with the Michelin City Pro albeit on a much bigger wheel (Monster V3+)

I noticed that AFTER deciding on the Angel. 80/80/14 is the size that fits the sherm (i think).

Hopefully the increased stiffness of it, doesnt ruin the plush ride. Only one way to find out.

[supercurio]

3 hours ago, Vulkov said:

Based on my limited search, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe the Michelin City Grip or Grip 2 to be available in a size that fits the Sherman. 

Here's another positive experience with the Michelin City Pro albeit on a much bigger wheel (Monster V3+)

Thanks for checking! Availability in the desired size is a rather important detail 

Michelin City Grip 2: 100/90 -14 57S at the minimum
Michelin City Grip: 120/70 -14 55P at the minimum

And yeah that's quite a raving review.

Reading that, I'm guessing/hoping that a stiffer tire at lower pressure, vs a softer tire at higher pressure might dampen more road buzz and terrain, while supporting weight the same way.
For a bicycle you don't want that because it means increasing the rolling resistance by dissipating energy in the tire as heat. Instead, compressing air in a very soft tire has lower rolling resistance losses. But then that tire will be more bouncy and provide less dampening overall.

Unless it affects range too much, a stiffer tire at lower pressure, providing better dampening and improved cornering sounds like a reasonable trade-off of an EUC like the Sherman!

[supercurio]

2 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said:

I noticed that AFTER deciding on the Angel. 80/80/14 is the size that fits the sherm (i think).

Hopefully the increased stiffness of it, doesnt ruin the plush ride. Only one way to find out.

Did you order the Pirelli Angel?
90/80 might fit - Denis has this on his EX.N but haven't tested on the Sherman V2 and its wider rim.

80/80 is a safer bet tho.

[.....]

80/80/14 front. I used a caliper on the stocker and its around 75mm. My opening looks around 88-90mm.  I didnt fancy trying the 90 (if avialable) as I would find ANY rubbing, entirely unacceptable. I hope that running low pressure combines with a stiffer casing and steep profile, will give me the bump abosrbtion I like, while giving me easier turn in and warm the tire. With gyro forces in play and the weight of the euc and my tiny ass: I seriously doubt Ill even get the tire up to operating temps. I dont know tho, is 400lbs about what a rider AND scooter weigh? My rim is here, so im just waiting on a socket and the tire. I'll try to do some sort of comparison, but a scientific/technical approach sounds like too much work to me. Hopefully this low pedal issue isnt worsened as well. I wont be able to compare very well, as I'll be comparing old tire old rim to new tire, new hangers and new rim. The tire was indicated as REINFTL.  Im assuming that means reinforced tubeless? If so, I suspect it will make the casing even stiffer. It looks like pirelli's I've run on my bikes. Great for wet and road, slick as snot on grass and gravel. I just hope it runs true. These cheap euc stockers ALWAYS have barely tolerable or worse runout/hop.

https://www.revzilla.com/motorcycle/pirelli-angel-scooter-tires

 

Edited May 3, 2021 by ShanesPlanet

[fbhb]

38 minutes ago, ShanesPlanet said:

The tire was indicated as REINFTL.  Im assuming that means reinforced tubeless? If so, I suspect it will make the casing even stiffer. It looks like pirelli's I've run on my bikes. Great for wet and road, slick as snot on grass and gravel. I just hope it runs true. These cheap euc stockers ALWAYS have barely tolerable or worse runout/hop.

Really looking forward to your report on the rim, hangers and tire swap. Hope it all goes smoothly and ultimately there is the outcome you crave in the handling department. I know one thing for sure, you will definitely tell it how it is and that counts for everything in a review!

[supercurio]

Same!
Super cool @ShanesPlanet, I look forward to learn from your experience and will likely follow suit.

[supercurio]

Update on findings so far:

After looking more at tire sizes, I found consistent information on 80/90-14 being the closest to stock dimensions and still fitting in the Sherman without modifications.

80/80 14 might give a bit of a smaller tire circumference than stock, but it might offer a bit more torque, and maybe the same top speed? Since top speed is limited by power and not free-spin.

Thanks @ShanesPlanetfor taking to your calipers to measure your wheel!

There was also consistent feedback on the Continental Contiscoot being less stiff and more comfortable overall than the Pirelli Angel Scooter tire, including in this discussion thread about actual scooters.

This beat-up stripped Sherman with V2 rim on Reddit is weighing strongly in the Contiscoot's favor regarding the fit and riding experience, as well as the one from @Willy510that's looking so cool with the 3D printed parts. @Declan acoustic-unicyclistalso has tried the Contiscoot 80/90-14, although on the V1 rim with the known issues associated.

Where I am the Contiscoot is more expensive than the Pirelli Angel Scooter, but especially since I can only find the reinforced version of the later which is likely to be more stiff, I'm leaning strongly towards the Contiscoot now.

I found where to buy the Sherman with a great discount instead but will have to wait about a month total, which still give some time for more information discovery if needed.

 

[.....]

fwiw, the inside dimension of the sherm are more like 86mm, not the 90mm I posted. The inner fender has short ribs that take a bit of room aside from the outer fender where I measured. The 80/80/14 (78.2mm inflated unloaded) angel is just about right, tho youll lose 6-7mm height(13mm total). Its actually damn near same as stock offroad in width(75.6mm inflated unloaded). Its a nice amount of gap, but still close enough the nipples can be heard ticking w-well, as its a new tire. Maybe a 90/80/14 will fit. I wanted easier turn in and no worry of rub. I havent had a chance to 'test' ride, aside from a moment or so. ALL i know for now is that it was eerily quiet and ran smooth up to 25mph in the darkness. I'll make a ride vid soon once its not raining. I'm baised to pirelli, as I've trusted them on my 200mph sport bike in the rain for decades. I tried Conti once, but they were slick as snot. Of course they werent very new either, even tho they were sold as such. Unofrtunately, I have been biased against, ever since.

Edited May 6, 2021 by ShanesPlanet

[Planemo]

On 5/3/2021 at 1:36 PM, supercurio said:

Michelin City Pro seems to be more a more affordable, durability oriented, puncture resistant option with somewhat mixed results. Not as appreciated as the City Grip series.

The best thing about the City Pro is that it is available in a tubed version, therefore softer carcass. This is the one issue I have with MC tyres on EUC's, they are nearly all tubeless and the carcasses are hard as hell compared to the ebike tyres we are used to. Very few MC options appear to be tubed.

I did try a Michelin Pilot (only available tubeless) on my MSX but it was immediately clear how much firmer the ride was over the 5102, even when I dropped the Pilot pressure to 20psi. I took it off after 10 miles. It was much more squirrely too, although that could be because I used an 80/90 (giving a fairly pointed profile) instead of a 70/90 which I think would be a better fit on the MSX/early Sherman rim.

I will be very interested to hear what you think on the Angel Shane.

[supercurio]

Awesome video you've made on this @ShanesPlanet

Super useful.

Yes regarding vertical clearance I guess that since the shell sits about 6mm higher like you measured, it means there's room for a slightly taller / higher circumference tire than stock as well. Hence 90mm height will absolutely be fine, maybe even 100mm according to these measurements.
Thanks for confirming that 80mm is the right width as well.

@Planemo indeed, good point on the City Pro being available in tubed version, and having the opportunity to have a softer carcass thanks to that.

It would be ideal to do a tubeless conversion. Maybe it's something to consider with the V2 despite it was clearly not advisable with the V1 rim.

What did you do with the Michelin Pilot you tried then, did you wait until the tire would break-in (like this video describes) or swapped back right away to the 5102?

[Planemo]

1 hour ago, supercurio said:

What did you do with the Michelin Pilot you tried then, did you wait until the tire would break-in (like this video describes) or swapped back right away to the 5102?

No I only did 10 miles. However, I have been around enough tyres in my lifetime to know that no amount of break-in was going to make the Pilot supple enough for my taste. Break-in will never have made the carcass anything like as flexible as the 5102. In fact I would wager it would feel exactly the same after 500 miles. Thats just my 2c though.

[OldFartRides]

I watched the whole damn thing, and I don’t even own a Sherm.

[supercurio]

@Planemo makes sense.

In your experience, for EUC usage, is it possible to get a more rigid tire with stiffer carcass and sidewalls to the overall level of comfort of a softer one by dramatically reducing the tire pressure? (like 10-15 PSI)

I'm guessing:

• Yes: because getting both to the same hardness will allow the stiffer tire to dissipate more energy in its material as heat than air.
• No: because hard rubber & carcass can't be as supple as air on a soft everything especially to filter high frequency vibrations (road buzz, gravel).

I'm really wondering what might hold true! And of course it's impossible to make sweeping generalisations either.

[.....]

5 hours ago, supercurio said:

Yes regarding vertical clearance I guess that since the shell sits about 6mm higher like you measured, it means there's room for a slightly taller / higher circumference tire than stock as well. Hence 90mm height will absolutely be fine, maybe even 100mm according to these measurements.

Just remember: the FIRST number is tire width. SO an 80/90 would probably fit. I was runinng 15psi on the stocker for a while. I too am curious how soft it will be. At a load of 200lbs on the tire, MAYBE I'll get a tiny bit. One thing is for sure, I'll do a bounce test and will know after a few moments.

Edited May 6, 2021 by ShanesPlanet

[mrelwood]

11 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said:

Just remember: the FIRST number is tire width. SO an 80/90 would probably fit.

Also, the second number is the height in %, not mm.

So a 80/90 tire is 72mm tall, and 80/80 is 64mm tall.

 Although, the variations between models and sizes are much larger than the sizing standards would suggest. The difference between 80/80 and 80/90 on an IRC SN-26 was too small to notice in the ride feel, and barely noticeable with a naked eye one next to the other.

[.....]

On 5/3/2021 at 3:16 PM, fbhb said:

Really looking forward to your report on the rim, hangers and tire swap. Hope it all goes smoothly and ultimately there is the outcome you crave in the handling department. I know one thing for sure, you will definitely tell it how it is and that counts for everything in a review!

 

On 5/3/2021 at 3:32 PM, supercurio said:

Same!
Super cool @ShanesPlanet, I look forward to learn from your experience and will likely follow suit.

Started a new thread, as I successfully hijacked this one. Thanks for the suggestions and for enticing me to give it a shot! I didnt NEED to do any of it, but am glad I did! Hell, I've almost already forgotten what a pita it was to change over...

[supercurio]

After reading positive, really detailed feedback on the Michelin City Pro over the Esprit Roue french forums, I ordered the City Pro 80/90 - 14.

The criteria that decided my choice eventually, over the Contiscoot:

• It has more thread than the Contiscoot. Since I'm invariably attracted to gravel and forest paths when exploring, its mixed profile is a better fit.
• Its design tradeoffs are more towards safety in the wet. Not that I plan to ride so much with the Sherman in the rain, but it's where grip could become a problem on an EUC, dry asphalt is a solved problem already. In the french forums I read other messages confirming that the Kenda K340 main weakness would be grip in the wet, and I'm happy this will be addressed.
• It's designed to be used with a tube. So hopefully it's less rigid and more supple than a tubeless tire would when mounted with an inner tube.
• I'm french and it's a french tire! Okay no that didn't count 
• It was $57 shipped whereas I could only find the Contiscoot at $81 here the moment, less disappointment if I don't like it.
• @DjPanJan review has all the right keywords