still haven't mastered the switch from 16 to 18" - Tips?

[reach]

Hi. 

After >1.000km on the V8 I switched to the V11. In a recent thread I've been convinced that my V11 isn't broken, but 18" is different to ride especially uphill. Ok so far.

Now I have some 200km on the V11 and I'm still struggeling to climb slopes which I could easily climb with the V8. If I manage to do so, it's going rather slow. On straight streets it's physically exhausting to maintain higher speed (still limited to 33km/h, I only rarely manage to reach that limit!) Everything above 20km/h needs physical effort.

 

I'm practising mainly off-road. Up hill I've tried different things:

1) squeeezing the wheel with my knees and bend it forward with the knees.

2) literally balance on my toes on the front edge of the pedal. I don't see how I could possible apply more forward pressure

3) tried setting it to off-road or commuting. Tried pedal sensitivity from 100-0%. 

4) stand on it more sideways, with one foot really, really wide in front, with the ball in front of the pedals edge, and the other one on the back, so I can also break.

Everything makes a bit of a difference, but all these things are physically exhausting, don't feel right and the results are still far away from the wheel's specified climbing capabilities. As said, it's rather worse than the V8.

 

Any tips?

Any clue, why 18" wheels are tuned like that? On the V8 I just lean forward and it goes Vmax. I appreciate the different geometry of an 18", but nevertheless I'm sure a V11 could easly be tuned the same way from the manufacturer.

[RockyTop]

2 hours ago, reach said:

any clue, why 18" wheels are tuned like that?

They are not tuned like that. It is simple physics. Even the weight of the wheel is fighting you when going up hill. I think that the one foot forward and one back is the best solution. 
Here is a video that explains the situation. 

 

[OldFartRides]

Love the table.

[RockyTop]

4 minutes ago, OldFartRides said:

Love the table.

Thanks 6,324 pennies. 

 

[OldFartRides]

Ah, a bar ! Even better. Interesting spot for the canoe.

[RockyTop]

7 minutes ago, OldFartRides said:

Ah, a bar ! Even better. Interesting spot for the canoe.

It is actually my back porch. The table is bar high on one side and table high on the other. I needed a place to put the canoe and thought it would add to the laid back ambiance of the back porch. 

[mrelwood]

Quote

Any clue, why 18" wheels are tuned like that?

As @RockyTop replied already, they aren't. Laws of physics are. All the software tuning that can be done to help with the phenomena are in the Pedal Sensitivity slider. Commuter mode at 50 or below is a very good climber (with the latest firmware 1.2.22).

Quote

I'm sure a V11 could easly be tuned the same way from the manufacturer.

Nope. 18" is 12.5% more than 16", and from 16x1.95" to 18x3" the diameter increases even more. Let's estimate 20%. So any 18x3" wheel requires you to move your Center of Gravity 20% further forward for the same acceleration. Pedal Sensitivity settings and power Pads can help you reach the additional 20%, but you still have to go 20% further. That's what mainly makes riding an 18" wheel a lot more physically involved. 16" x 2.5" and smaller wheels can be accelerated and steered pretty well with ankles only, while 18" wheels require much more body. And that's why 18" EUC riders commonly equip their wheels with Power Pads.

When I got my first 18", I was very disappointed with the exact same phenomena, and being a Gotway, it's limited tuning settings were of little help. I was sure for a long time that this is not what I want from an EUC, and that I'd have to sell it. It took me much longer than 200km to transform 12000km worth of riding habits, but once I did, the possibilities of the 18" world opened up to me. Now I would never even joke about getting a 16" wheel as a main wheel.

 

Quote

Everything above 20km/h needs physical effort.

Everything requires more physical effort on an 18" wheel, period. It's not a bad thing, it's how 18" wheels ride. Especially emergency braking is something you should specifically practice.

 

Adjusting your expectations might be a good step going forward. Comparing the ease of acceleration between 16" and 18" is pointless, and trying to make an 18x3" wheel to behave like a 16x1.95" wheel is simply a futile loosing battle. Just like 14" wheels are their whole own world as well. Instead, you might benefit from taking the world of 18" wheels as a new territory for you to explore and learn.

Tips:

• Foot positioning is much more important on an 18" EUC. If you've had a habit of centering your shoe on the pedal, you can get away with it on a 16" wheel. Not anymore. A good starting point is to level the back of your shoe with the rear edge of the pedal. This should roughly center your foot, but without toes.
• Pads! Power Pads, ClarkPads, Jump Pads, Ankle Pads, etc... Or DIY from a yoga block, EVA foam, camping mat, etc... Anything that you can take support from when leaning 20% further, front and back.
• Medium or soft Pedal Sensitivity. Keep the Sensitivity Slider below 60 (firmware 1.2.22).

I'm confident that it'll eventually click for you too!

Edited May 1, 2021 by mrelwood

[PLEASE_DELETE]

Deleted.

Edited March 18 by PLEASE_DELETE

[.....]

Can't argue the physics of a larger wheel. The other guys laid it out for you pretty well. However, they are being too kind. Me, I'll give you a tidbit that is also part of the equation but not so kind. You need to just keep riding. I don't know how to explain it, but every week I ride, the same hills get easier. Same wheel, same hill, same tire pressure, same everything. Dont forget that strength and conditioning effects ALL facets of ride performance. Give yourself more time to get stronger, try some other suggestions, and youll quickly realize you are climbing better than before. A big problem is that we ALL tend to grade ourselves on a sliding scale. As we get better, we expect more and we fail to realize that we are IN FACT accomplishing what we couldn't in the recent past. Muscle that 18" up those hills and dont expect it to out perform a smaller in sheer torque. Get used to moving around on the plates, and keep on keeping on!

Edited May 1, 2021 by ShanesPlanet

[Scottie]

3 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said:

As we get better, we expect more and we fail to realize that we are IN FACT accomplishing what we couldn't in the recent past.

[reach]

On 4/30/2021 at 4:04 PM, RockyTop said:

They are not tuned like that. It is simple physics. Even the weight of the wheel is fighting you when going up hill. I think that the one foot forward and one back is the best solution. 

Thanks. This is the video I referred to when I said that "I've been convinced that my V11 isn't broken" and "I appreciate the different geometry of an 18".

Again, no arguing with this, it's just frustrating that it takes so long (one might laugh at me calling 200km "long", but having other things in my life, this is quite some effort)

 

On 5/1/2021 at 3:56 AM, mrelwood said:

Everything requires more physical effort on an 18" wheel, period. It's not a bad thing, it's how 18" wheels ride. Especially emergency braking is something you should specifically practice.

Thanks for your tips and for reassuring me that this is kind of normal. 
I would still argue that a wheel can't be tuned differently, but ok, that's a different discussion.

 

Main problem here might be that both noteable crashes I had with my V8 were from leaning too much forward during accelleration from standstill. The wheel couldn't push strong enough so I feel straight to the ground with an additional 30km/h horizontal vector. My shoulder still hurts sometimes from the last one (despite Bike-Jacket with protectors). So I'm hesitant to really lean much further, still having the feeling of falling stored in my brain. I already thought of binding a pillow around my chest and give it a go. Or at least wait until the grass is dry enough for full grip, to try it there on softer ground.
An that's also the reason for practising off-road and up-hill, because speeds are much lower there.

[mrelwood]

9 hours ago, reach said:

Main problem here might be that both noteable crashes I had with my V8 were from leaning too much forward during accelleration from standstill.

The V8 is a low powered wheel, and it’s unfortunately not very rare to have overleaned one. And a crash like that surely stays with you for a long time.

 For numbers, the V8 has a 300 something Wh battery, with only two parallel 18650 packs. The battery is what mainly determines the maximum power the wheel can give. The V11 has almost FIVE times the battery capacity with four parallel 21700 packs, and almost three times the continuous motor wattage handling capability of the V8. So the difference is HUGE.

I weigh 101kg atm. I have been able to overpower both the V11 and the 84V MSX, but only in a very specific off-road situation where the wheel drops down and gets stuck between tall roots while I’m pressing down on the longer than standard pedals and the power pads with more than my weight. But both of these wheels can crawl me up incredibly steep hills, ones that I couldn’t touch with a 10 foot pole without long pedals and power pads!

9 hours ago, reach said:

I would still argue that a wheel can't be tuned differently

The wheels can be tuned differently, sure, and it does have an effect on how hill climbing feels. The latest fw on the V11 improved on the Commuter mode by a lot, making acceleration feel easier. Just like the much liked KingSong v 2.0 update a year or two ago.

But since all the fw can do is to play tricks with rider’s confidence, it’s not an aspect that mainly determines how an 18” wheel feels like. The fw improvements don’t negate the need to lean 20% more, they can only help you feel confident in doing so, and also help a bit in you reaching the additional 20%.

But you still do have to lean 20% more. Nothing can negate or overcome that fact.

If you watch a lot of YouTube videos on people riding various wheels, you might notice that all physical riders ride large wheels. I don’t think there are any videos of people riding a V8, 16S or even a Tesla while moving like Tishawn Fahie does when riding large wheels. Because the smaller diameter wheels require 20% less lean.

[Surfling]

On 4/30/2021 at 9:49 PM, RockyTop said:

The table is bar high on one side and table high on the other.

That's an awesome idea! 

[Roadpower]

I have a KS18XL and V10F, I need to conduct a fresh hill test between them before commenting as it has been a while since I rode my V10F but I expect that I'm going to come back with a more favorable of the V10F on hill, albeit slight.