EUC Dilemma

[andrew900nyc]

As a lifelong (pedal) unicyclist, the advent of EUC's is one of the coolest things I could have ever imagined. Like most of you, I derive tremendous enjoyment from riding these things. Perhaps, even more importantly... and especially as a knickerbocker, my EUC is my primary mode of transportation within the City and by far the most convenient and cost effective way for me to get around.

 

So what's my dilemma?

 

Before I reveal my dilemma, I anticipate that it is very likely that many people will think I'm just an idiot, that this issue is easily solved by just doing what nearly everyone else does because it's really no big deal, etc., etc. And I concede that you are probable right, but my personality is unlikely to change at this stage of the game. As such, I'd just like to gather some information so that I can at least make an informed decision regarding my dilemma, which is whether or not to continue using my MSX as my main vehicle for intra-City travel.

 

I do not wear any protective gear. When I first bought my MSX, I bought knee pads, elbow pads, wrist guards and a helmet. I wore the protective gear twice and then realized that putting all that gear on every time I want to go somewhere completely eliminated the convenience factor that I prize so much with EUC's. So I ditched all the safety gear and I stay hyper focused when I'm riding. My average riding speed on smooth, clear sections of road is about 35 - 40 kph. Once in a while, if I am confident that the road is smooth and the conditions are right, I may hit 50 kph, but only very briefly. Much of the time, I'm cruising between 20 - 30 kph. I'm not too concerned about rider error (or even the idiots around me), but the fact that an electronics failure of some sort at the wrong time (during my higher speed riding) would certainly ruin my day (and possibly my life) is not a very comforting feeling. And so it is with this in mind that I'd like to obtain some information about how reliable EUC's are in general, and the MSX in particular. How many of you have had cut-outs due to electronics failure? What wheel cut-out on you due to electronics failure? Of course, I don't want to include cut-outs resulting from asking for more juice than the battery could provide, just electronics failure cut-outs only. I'd like to gain some appreciation for how risky the self-balancing technology is in this industry. I've heard some people claim that you don't even need to worry about it because the wheels are so reliable and others who believe that failures are inevitable. What are your experiences and thoughts on the matter?

Edited April 23, 2021 by andrew900nyc

[.....]

Risk of  equipment failure is inevitable(regular unicycles arent exempt). Its just simply a matter of fact. I think that under the conditions you describe, failure after the initial burn in, will be very low for a very long time. At any rate, even a low % of failure COULD end in a high price to pay. Don't kid yourself into thinking you are exempt from the possibility of random component failure at any time. Its not common, but it does happen. I do think the rate is VERY low however, or we'd hear a LOT more about it. The thing about random component failure, it can be unprovoked and give no warnings. Personally I think an external factor is more likely to cause harm, than component failure.

Apologies for being so vague, and I dont own an msx. However, the risk of failure exists in ALL my wheels. I'd be lying if it wasnt in the back of my mind as I ride near obstacles or in places, or at speeds that a failure could be BIG problem. I accept the risk, roll the dice and hope all is well. I also don't wear much gear, but thats subject to change at ANY time for ANY reason. I FULLY understand how putting on gear can become a reason to hardly bother ride at times. I also realize that road rash and broken bones are a total bitch. I reserve the right to risk it fully, or protect myself a little.

Not trying to scare anyone at all, just merely stating an opinion. Even my trusty toyota camry could suffer catastrophic failure that could prove VERY dangerous, at any time.  Personal risk assessment is important imho.. Just the simple fact that anyone would think about this and make their calculations, shows a sense of responsibility in my book.

I dont see the dilemma at all. Its not like you are just NOW realizing the danger involved. If you like to ride it and it fits your personality and needs.. ride the damn thing! The only REAL dilemma is.. how much gear do you want to wear, and how will you choose to ride it.... Proper maintenance, and being alert to the noise and vibrations will assit you in minimizing or recognizing a failure more promptly.

Edited April 23, 2021 by ShanesPlanet

[Scottie888]

Hmmm I don't get what your dilemma is. If its about electronics/mechanical failure, besides cutoffs induced by overloading (which I submit is rider error), chances are super low. However since this is a relatively high speed mobility device subjected to impacts & other rotation/torsional/etc forces, its not surprising if mechanical components jar themselves loose in due course so its always wise to develop a practise of regularly opening it up for a once over to ensure all the t's are crossed besides a good clean.

Far's PPE ie. personal protective equipment goes, I'd say YMMV. Afterall its your skin, your bones, your grief & your tears. So long's as I'm not responsible for your medical bills, I say do as you want as who am I or anyone for that matter to tell anyone how to live.

That said, I understand intimately the hassle of slogging on/off gear each & everytime. I wish I don't have to & on really hot humid days, I even fantasize riding in undies only. Afterall, IF I don't eat it then its all unnecessary. Then a voice pops up almost immediately & shouts....Thats a big IF. Its like IF I won't get caught I can rob a bank & then some. However I don't live in that world of IFs but instead, reality. 

And in the real world, Murphy's Law almost always rulezz. Sadly for me anyways🥺

[Simply_Striking]

42 minutes ago, Scottie888 said:

And in the real world, Murphy's Law almost always rulezz. Sadly for me anyways🥺

This, Murphy will always have his say. Protective gear is the simply mitigation, something will go wrong, it may be the electronics in the wheel, riders error or just something you cannot control, other pedestrians, cars..... etc

[xiiijojjo]

It's all about finding practical gear. Mine takes about 2 minutes to put on and include protection for knee/shins, wrists, elbows and head.

I rode for 3 years with no gear and no problems and then i had a problem, a big one. Wish i would have wore it all along. I put it on every time i ride now.

It's only a matter of time, you will crash, only question is how protected would you like to be when it happens?

[Tawpie]

Dice rolling. Fun stuff, but have you opened your wheel to see how carefully it was put together? Gotway has a habit of being sloppy, so if you’re going to trust your skin, bones, and brain to them I’d at least assure yourself that the inside of your wheel is as well put together as you can.

As to odds, there are a lot of things that have to be just so in the wheel and in your riding environment or you will be introduced to the ground right quick. Literally everybody I’ve ridden with has had a hard fall, self included—bunnies run out in front of you, a moments distraction and you get launched by a manhole cover, goofing around and you just fall off funny. I’ve been very very glad for the time I spend gearing up—several of my falls would have hurt, badly, and for some time.

But! Do what works for you, it’s your call.

(haha, I act all big stuff and say it’s your call when I know good and well that in my household it’s not actually my call at all... YMMV)

[andrew900nyc]

Thanks for your feedback and good advice, @ShanesPlanet, @Scottie888, @Simply_Striking, @xiiijojjo & @Tawpie. 

 

I think the consensus seems to be that while the chance of an electronics failure is quite low, with every mile of use, the risk increases ever so slightly due to wear and the possibility of vibration-induced mechanical failure, etc. Given the limited amount of information regarding EUC reliability and the fact that nearly any "weak link" in the circuitry that fails could have severe consequences, I will need to carefully consider how I will utilize my MSX. There is almost zero chance that I suit up with all the protective gear I have every time I want to go somewhere. I would be ok with the risk of rider error and external factors, but a sudden cut-out due to an electronics failure may be more risk than I want to take on when riding without protection. As such, I think there is a real (and somewhat depressing) possibility that my EUC riding will diminish substantially. I may be willing to suit up for long journeys and for those occasions when I have time for decent length recreational rides, but not for all the local blasting around town that I'm used to doing on a daily basis. Maybe one day the manufacturers of these machines will build in the kind of redundancy that the aviation industry utilizes to increase safety, but I kind of doubt it. Not sure most consumers would pay the extra money for the incremental increase in safety the redundancy offered. In any case, I am still in a quandary because I know that certain aspects of my personality will tempt me to just keep riding without any protection as I have been, while the more rational parts of my brain will try to prevent me from doing so. I'm not 100% sure which side will win out. Convenience is a very alluring, but insidious little devil. Hopefully good sense & caution will prevail.  

Edited April 24, 2021 by andrew900nyc

[Daley1]

Its not if ur going to fall,its when.High speeds will end badly and low speeds can 2.(have a look at the bloke who fell and broke his femur at 5kmh).I dont trust the Qc from our wheel suppliers so i,m atgatt.In the end its ur call,knowing the risks! 

[Scottie888]

@andrew900nyc no worries bud, its all good. Don't let what you've read temper your enthusiasm for this very enjoyable hobby. Just take a moment to understand the stakes involved for yourself & do what's best for you. 

FWIW there's risk to any & everything. More ppl get hurt & die from slipping off the bathtub than will ever on EUC misadventures so there's that. At the very least, think about a lid. Even a half shell bike/sk8 helmet's better than nothing. Grey matter btwn the ears the most important part & I can affirm a bike helmet's no hassle at all.

Goodluck

[Ek.]

The risk is relative to the consequences and in your case to the inconvenience. Just pop a helmet on so you don’t die from a head injury and if you break bones chalk it up as bad luck. Two seconds for a helmet isn’t a great inconvenience and should mitigate the absolute most severe consequence (death). 
That should even things out a bit. 
 

I like to think of it like lottery tickets. If a ticket cost $100 but the prize was huge and I was likely enough to win, I’d buy. As soon as you reduce likelihood OR the size of the prize you’d need the cost per entry to reduce accordingly. One little helmet is a pretty small price for the potential huge payoff given the same small chance of cutout. That’s why people buy cheap lotto tickets even though they pretty much know they won’t win the really huge prize. 

[Planemo]

It's a real dilemma and I understand/respect everyones viewpoint on gear. I have always worn everything, but the other day I knew I was going for a 'chilled' ride and for the first time bought myself a skate lid (I usually use full face). It felt naughty, bad and dangerous, but I loved the free feeling. I was able to easily chat with riders next to me, I could hear more and I could also vape whilst riding lol. Oh and rearwards vision was better.

That said, when I say 'chilled', I am acutely aware of the damage even low speed impacts have caused some riders. TBH I am torn with what to do sometimes. At the very least I will still wear elbow, knee and wrist guards and a helmet of some sort but helmet wise it's a decision I struggle with, especially in summer. I really should try something super light and airy like a Fox Proframe but imo they are still as bulky as hell.

As has been said, wheel failures are pretty rare but the injuries my buddy sustained when riding seated at just 15mph (capacitor failed on MSX) weren't pretty. That said, he wasn't wearing knee or elbow pads either...nor a helmet...luckily his head never hit the ground.

It really is a roll of the dice every time we go out. Pads are unlikely to stop a broken collarbone/arm/leg anyway. EUC's are inherently risky (don't tell the authorities that).

[mrelwood]

Trying to calculate the risk of electrical failures only is an aspect that makes it a bit futile in my eyes. After all, you are contemplating whether to wear gear for any kind of fall. With your riding style, sudden electrical failures aren’t the largest risk by any meter. Other people, animals, and even a sudden flat tire might be a larger risk than a sudden failure in the wheel’s electronics.

 If it would take two minutes to start the EUC and there wouldn’t be a real need for any gear, would you feel differently about the convenience of riding an EUC? Since the wheel itself is way more convenient than anything else, I see it as leaving some room for gearing up and still beating other modes of transport in convenience.

 Another aspect is simply how you view putting on the gear. Do you contemplate whether it’s worth it to brush your teeth daily, or is it just something you’ve gotten so used to that it has become automatic? No reason gear couldn’t be the same.

 If the gear is too much work to put on, you should definitely look into gear that are easier. Protected hoodies, jeans, etc. You don’t need to Stormtrooper up to have a decent level of protection.

As @Tawpie wrote, I’d look inside the wheel and closely inspect any visual cues of a risk. While I see the MSX as a dependable wheel in general, GW has had a lot of issues with the quality of assembly. The later MSXs were made a bit better than the earliest ones, with better heat handling on the cable layout for example. Not sure if they started soldering the caps better, but mine seemed risky so I soldered them up properly.

[Planemo]

4 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

The later MSXs were made a bit better than the earliest ones, with better heat handling on the cable layout for example.

I agree, the middle onwards MSX's were and to my mind still are one of the most reliable EUC's out there. No hollow motors, strong mosfets and cabling etc, proper 18650 Sanyo cells, board soldering is fine, the only real weakness is the shell construction IMO, and thats only relevant in the event of a crash.

And you are right about gear of course, it really shouldn't be an issue to put on. Your toothbrush example is good - if we miss it for a day we worry about our teeth falling out. Don't wear a full face when riding and we could lose all the front ones straight away - plus a broken jaw 

[Eucner]

Protective equipment can be convenient to use. For example the iXS Trigger FF helmet is super lightweight and comfortable. It only takes seconds to put on or off. Normal jacket can be replaced with a protective motorcycle jacket

[.....]

Don't let the 'what if's' ruin the definitive. You've made it this long, why the sudden change? @Scottie888 hit the nail on the head. I was simply going to point to the statistic that few to none have died on an euc to date. Can't say the same about cooking in the kitchen, taking a shower, walking across the street and driving a car. It all boils down to... are you gna live in fear of possibilities or are you gna live IN JOY with the possibilities? Once you give this up, whats the next enjoyable thing to go? I'm already in my 40's, life has been kind to me and it would be a shame to cower in the corner now... I did purchase a MC suit. it only takes about 45 seconds to pull it on. Ironically, it's gna stay stiff and near new for years I suspect.

Edited April 24, 2021 by ShanesPlanet

[GoGeorgeGo]

17 hours ago, andrew900nyc said:

As a lifelong (pedal) unicyclist, the advent of EUC's is one of the coolest things I could have ever imagined. Like most of you, I derive tremendous enjoyment from riding these things. Perhaps, even more importantly... and especially as a knickerbocker, my EUC is my primary mode of transportation within the City and by far the most convenient and cost effective way for me to get around.

 

So what's my dilemma?

 

Before I reveal my dilemma, I anticipate that it is very likely that many people will think I'm just an idiot, that this issue is easily solved by just doing what nearly everyone else does because it's really no big deal, etc., etc. And I concede that you are probable right, but my personality is unlikely to change at this stage of the game. As such, I'd just like to gather some information so that I can at least make an informed decision regarding my dilemma, which is whether or not to continue using my MSX as my main vehicle for intra-City travel.

 

I do not wear any protective gear. When I first bought my MSX, I bought knee pads, elbow pads, wrist guards and a helmet. I wore the protective gear twice and then realized that putting all that gear on every time I want to go somewhere completely eliminated the convenience factor that I prize so much with EUC's. So I ditched all the safety gear and I stay hyper focused when I'm riding. My average riding speed on smooth, clear sections of road is about 35 - 40 kph. Once in a while, if I am confident that the road is smooth and the conditions are right, I may hit 50 kph, but only very briefly. Much of the time, I'm cruising between 20 - 30 kph. I'm not too concerned about rider error (or even the idiots around me), but the fact that an electronics failure of some sort at the wrong time (during my higher speed riding) would certainly ruin my day (and possibly my life) is not a very comforting feeling. And so it is with this in mind that I'd like to obtain some information about how reliable EUC's are in general, and the MSX in particular. How many of you have had cut-outs due to electronics failure? What wheel cut-out on you due to electronics failure? Of course, I don't want to include cut-outs resulting from asking for more juice than the battery could provide, just electronics failure cut-outs only. I'd like to gain some appreciation for how risky the self-balancing technology is in this industry. I've heard some people claim that you don't even need to worry about it because the wheels are so reliable and others who believe that failures are inevitable. What are your experiences and thoughts on the matter?

 

I can totally understand not gearing up every ride, but just putting a helmet on is not really time consuming or inconvenient. The way i see it, all the other gear just helps mitigate injury. You will live with a broken wrist or some severe road rash. But a helmet mitigates death and life altering injuries.

I would implore anyone who rides faster than 10 mph to just put on a helmet. The rest of the gear is optional, a helmet is not. The risk of brain damage and life altering injury is just far to high. If not for yourself, wear it for the people that love you. It only takes a second to put on and could save you decades of agony. 

A failure is inevitable honestly. Eventually the capacitors will blow, or a connection will come undone, or a tire will pop. Its not high risk on an average ride, but if you ride enough its bound to happen. Plus you cant discount someone else hitting you, which is the highest likelyhood of causing a crash on an average ride. A dog , a cyclist, a pedestrian, a car. 

Edited April 24, 2021 by GoGeorgeGo

[Mantraguy]

I've timed myself: it takes me somewhere between 4 and 5 minutes to get my boots on, lace and tie them up, put on my knee protectors, throw on my moto jacket (integrated elbow and shoulder pads), wrist guards, get my S5 secured to the left wrist guard by way of a twist Garmin mount, throw on my full-face helmet and glasses and turn on the EUC. I probably spend as long again getting the apps set up, turning on and starting the Garmin, wheeling out the door and adjusting my mirror after knocking it into doorways and walls while getting suited up. I bet I could shave a full minute off by using slip-on or Velcro shoes. I've had / have MANY other hobbies - flying RC planes / quadcopters / helicopters, kayaking, road and mountain cycling, photography, autocross, tennis, disc golf, golf, RC car/truck racing, woodworking, classical and bass guitars, the list goes on - I can't think of a single one that takes less time overall to get all my gear together and actually start playing / using it, from the time you think to yourself "let's drop everything and go (insert hobby here)" to the time you're actually doing it (ok, guitar might be slightly faster - but you get my point). I've only crashed at speed once, a couple of days ago, and I now have battle scars on my knee pads, elbow pads, wrist protectors and helmet - all from one bad speed-wobble. I have a skinned hip, that's all. Not so much as a broken fingernail otherwise. I'd be in much worse shape if I'd saved that extra 4 minutes to get ready. I just can't understand the argument of 'gearing up takes too long'.

[Scubadragonsan]

I wear accordingly. Go down a couple of blocks to buy something from Safeway, no protective gear. To and fro from work everyday, yes. Spend a whole day out riding, yes. Spot a beautiful sexy girl, yes!!! BTW, I already had my lessons of 2 face plants. One was w/o protective gear, it hurt! Second one was with protective gear, hurt less! No one is immune to surprises or accidents!

Edited April 24, 2021 by scubadragosan

[andrew900nyc]

Thanks for all the feedback. Once I have some time and I find where I buried my protective gear, I am likely to take the advice of at least wearing a lid. I agree that most hobbies take more time to get ready, but riding a wheel is both a hobby and transportation. When I had a motorcycle, I was required to wear a helmet, but I would have worn it in any case, so I think wearing one when I'm on my wheel is a reasonable thing to do... and won't be too much of a hassle. Hopefully, I'll eventually transition to wearing more gear, but a helmet will be a good first step. As a side note, strangely enough I get more comments on my recumbent bike than I do on my wheel, but the two most memorable comments were essentially slightly different worded versions of the same sentiment. As I was blasting up 1st Ave last fall, some guy eating outside yelled at me at the top of his lungs "You're going to die!" A similar sentiment was expressed about a month ago by a woman I passed on 3rd Ave. Perhaps wearing a helmet will reduce these kinds of comments.

Edited April 25, 2021 by andrew900nyc

[Werner]

A gear you never should go without are wrist guards.

I broke my wrist while going really slow with my little Ninebot One S2. There were only a few wet leafs and the wheel just slipped out half to the side and to the front so that i touched the ground with my hand at first to fend off the fall on my ass. That's it. Same feeling as slipping out in winter on ice. 

You hands will be nearly everytime the first part to hit the ground because of your instinctive reflexes. 

A helmet and wrist guards are the essential two pieces of gear you should wear everytime you step on your wheel. No piece less. 

All other parts of protective gear are a plus of course. 

Always stay on! 

Edited April 25, 2021 by Werner

[Rawnei]

If convenience is the issue just get motorcycle clothes, a pair of MC Jeans that look like normal clothes but is also protective and a MC jacket, or the lazy rolling clothes, those are really no effort to put on, you put on your pants and jacket to go out and you're done.

[xiiijojjo]

Although i'm happy @andrew900nyc has chosen to ride with a helmet at the very least, i am now kinda left waiting for the "you guys were right i'm now getting surgery "- post 

Hopefully that never happens though. But whenever we talk about protective gear on this forum and people knowingly opts out of the good advise i'm just left here sitting on a barrel of " i told ya so" waiting for it to age. 

Edited April 25, 2021 by xiiijojjo

[Planemo]

On 4/25/2021 at 11:01 AM, Rawnei said:

If convenience is the issue just get motorcycle clothes, a pair of MC Jeans that look like normal clothes but is also protective and a MC jacket, or the lazy rolling clothes, those are really no effort to put on, you put on your pants and jacket to go out and you're done.

Yeah I have totally made the switch to MC jackets now. I have bought two, one is mesh (for the summer). Both were secondhand off the bay, the last (below) was just £17. You just dont get better abrasion and impact resistance for that, plus as you say its the easiest thing to don/doff. Never again will I faff with upper pads or robocop suits, and many MC jackets look so casual now you dont stand out like a plum when charging at a coffee stop

 

Edited March 4, 2022 by Planemo
Edit: Pic removed - having a cull of my uploads to retrieve space.

[davewood1982]

On 4/24/2021 at 12:28 PM, Eucner said:

Protective equipment can be convenient to use. For example the iXS Trigger FF helmet is super lightweight and comfortable. It only takes seconds to put on or off. Normal jacket can be replaced with a protective motorcycle jacket

This.

About electronic failure? euc electronics generally tend to be highly reliable but i guess it depends on a number of factors such as age,  electronic components in computers don't last forever so don't expect your euc to be any different.

Edited April 25, 2021 by davewood1982

[.....]

Amazing how these always turn into a 'wear your gear' thread.  Sometimes even bothering to put on shoes is too much hassle. IN the time it takes everyone to gear up for a war that isnt happening, I have already ridden around the block, smoked a cigarette, felt the wind in my hair and arrived back home to dock the euc again. All lies when its claimed that putting on gear isnt a hassle and it doesnt mitigate comfort or vision/hearing. Gear has its benefits, but comfort and ease aint two of them. I grew up in a state with NO helmet laws for motorcycles. We had NO helmets for our skateboards and bicycles. I didnt own a single peice of body armor and we rode around like hooligans daily. We also didnt have expensive toys and excessive parental worry. My how times have changed. Its almost like each year we get a little more worried and a little less willing to roll the dice. Perhaps I need to get out the safety gear soon, just to make sure it still fits. I enjoy having safety gear, as it reminds me that I have a choice. I can choose to gear up or choose to not. Quite frankly, all this worry makes me want to go ride naked, just because I can! I bet people don't even play 'chicken' anymore.

Edited April 25, 2021 by ShanesPlanet