reasoning behind the suspension brick on the S18.

[enaon]

1 hour ago, FinRider said:

I installed a 90 degree elbow extension on the top valve so that it is very easy to fill the positive (top) chamber without having the block.

Nice, you don't even need the elbow extension, watch this video, if the suspension extends fully, the top valve is easy to access. If not, fix the plastic on the fender so that it will not hit there. 

https://streamable.com/6y1ohj

 

Yes, the psi Is just for reference, I used 200/100 just to have a reference so that I can compare how it works with the block or not. 

 

[enaon]

1 hour ago, FinRider said:

I may check the pressures tomorrow and report back. I can then put the block in while the pump is connected and see how the pressures change. Would be interesting to know.

If you inflate the bottom chamber without the brick to 100, and then place the brick, the psi will read ~30.

100 with the block on results to over 170 when released. Actually, the chart from the book of the shock is quite ok if inflated without the block I think. 

[mrelwood]

13 hours ago, enaon said:

If you inflate the bottom chamber without the brick to 100, and then place the brick, the psi will read ~30.

100 with the block on results to over 170 when released. Actually, the chart from the book of the shock is quite ok if inflated without the block I think. 

This is what we were trying to get at. That it’s not using the brick that decreases suspension travel. It’s when you use too much pressure in the bottom (negative) chamber that decreases the travel. 100psi with the brick (170 psi without) is too much, 100 psi without the brick (30 psi with) is ok.

Remove 70 psi from your target negative pressure (and add X psi to the target main) when using the brick and you get the same riding feel and same suspension travel.

[FinRider]

19 hours ago, enaon said:

If you inflate the bottom chamber without the brick to 100, and then place the brick, the psi will read ~30.

100 with the block on results to over 170 when released. Actually, the chart from the book of the shock is quite ok if inflated without the block I think. 

So just for kicks and and giggles I wanted to measure this before my ride today.

lower negative chamber is at 60 and upper positive chamber is at 180. This is without the brick in place.

I tried putting the brick in place, but my skinny ass cant do it on my own. My buddy is coming over saturday so I will have him stand on it with his 105kg... that should do the trick.

i am happy with this setup. I am fully geared about 80 kg for reference.

[enaon]

8 hours ago, mrelwood said:

This is what we were trying to get at. That it’s not using the brick that decreases suspension travel. It’s when you use too much pressure in the bottom (negative) chamber that decreases the travel. 100psi with the brick (170 psi without) is too much, 100 psi without the brick (30 psi with) is ok.

I get that this is where you were getting to, but I would not have stated this thread just for that.

I insist, do some tests if you like and you will understand. If the bottom chamber is inflated with tension, something is off, regardless of the psi, air is leaking somewhere else I guess, travel distance is lost, even if pressure is released from the bottom chamber afterwards. 

Edited April 15, 2021 by enaon

[enaon]

dp 

Edited April 15, 2021 by enaon

[.....]

12 minutes ago, enaon said:

I get that this is where you were getting to, but I would not have stated this thread just for that.

I insist, do some tests if you like and you will understand. If the bottom chamber is inflated with tension, something is off, regardless of the psi, air is leaking somewhere else I guess, travel distance is lost, even if pressure is released from the bottom chamber afterwards. 

Your shock may have a problem and your thread must have been inappropriately titled.  My shock worked the same either way, block to inflate or not. Tho I swear the first version was not easy to inflate w/o the block. Yanking the pad glue loose and fighting like hell to get a valve to work with supplied pump, wasnt the definition of easy. I get it... YOURS is easy. Don't assume everyone else's is. Maybe just don't use the block at all, if it seems to degrade the end result in any form? My crystal ball is telling me that this thread may go round in circles for a while longer, even yet....

Edited April 15, 2021 by ShanesPlanet

[mrelwood]

Just now, ShanesPlanet said:

My crystal ball is telling me that this thread may go round in circles for a while longer, even yet....

Mine as well. I best drop out, since I simply fail to put it all together.

[enaon]

4 minutes ago, ShanesPlanet said:

Your shock may have a problem and your thread must have been inappropriately titled.  My shock worked the same either way, block to inflate or not. Maybe just don't use the block at all, if it seems to degrade the end result in any form? My crystal ball is telling me that this thread may go round in circles for a while longer, even yet...

I have now tested it on more s18's , all I can say is the road to good suspension is through acceptance, you can try, or not

Edited April 15, 2021 by enaon

[.....]

2 minutes ago, enaon said:

I have now tested it on more s18's , all I can say is the road to good suspension is through acceptance, you can try, or not

I did try it.  Mine showed no variance, even with me bothering to inflate and cuss and pry to get it w/o the block. THEN I watched a video about using the block and realized what i had it for. Tried with block. Easier to fill, same result at same end pressures...     You can also accept it or not...

[enaon]

thanks, but I really don't care about that popcorn thing

you don't have one to test. and you didn't even realize that the design accommodates for the pump, this thread is more about psychology that mechanics I guess by now for you, you just cannot accept it, but it doesn't really matter if you don't have one. 

 

[mrelwood]

6 minutes ago, enaon said:

this thread is more about psychology

Ah, now I finally get it!

[enaon]

it is about psychology, Kingsong said  something crazy, and we all played along. Look at the way you and shanes are answring to me, it is like it doens't matter if I am a old user with experience in mechanics, or just a newbie, your answers are fixed. 

 

Please guys, don't do that, just let the thead be so that it may be useful to someone with an s18 and willingness to test. 

[.....]

18 minutes ago, enaon said:

thanks, but I really don't care about that popcorn thing

you don't have one to test. and you didn't even realize that the design accommodates for the pump, this thread is more about psychology that mechanics I guess by now for you, you just cannot accept it, but it doesn't really matter if you don't have one. 

 

I had this one and it was not too long ago. I clearly recall the setup and the things I found right and wrong with it

I am fairly handy when it comes to mechanics and basic fitment and principals of shock pressure. I didnt know what the plastic block was for when I first got it, as this is not a common thing to general machines. I did quite a bit of testing with the struggle of filling it without the block. I made a few pressure charts and what not. THEN I watched the video from KS about the block. I went about using it as directed and found no difference in end result at same pressures. Perhaps mine was a fluke or perhaps I just got 'lucky' that the block didnt alter and negate the shock in any way. My issues were many, but the shock itself wasnt one of them.

Its not really about psychology. I was merely trying to help, as your question seemed fairly simple to answer. I tried and tried to understand what you are explaining and i guess I was having a hard time. I am still not sure, but it sounds like you are having some kind of bleed-over prblem when airing a shock with the block. THIS is why I suggested maybe your shock if faulty or simply dont use the block. I know you insist that getting to the shock is uber simple, then you also say you may need to cut plastic. I am merely suggesting that there may be some s18's out there that are NOT easy to fill, and the block still has a function for those people. Yes, i tried thru the access hole that means the pad will come unfixed and still be a total pita. I also tried down thru the access area near the tire.

It doesnt really matter to me, but my answer (and yours) may matter to the others that read it after us. At any rate, hopefully you find the answer you are looking for. Its simply too bad I just don't seem to have it.

 

Edited April 15, 2021 by ShanesPlanet

[enaon]

32 minutes ago, ShanesPlanet said:

then you also say you may need to cut plastic

32 minutes ago, ShanesPlanet said:

that means the pad will come unfixed and still be a total pita

the screw position on the fender is a known implementation fail, one should cut it anyway. it will hit hard if not, can damage the shocks o-ring, so it should be done regardless. The side benefit is that access to the valve is easy, as it was designed to be. 

No need to touch anything on the pad, you got something wrong. 

 

 

ok Shanes, I really believe that if this thread end in us having a bad taste, then it is really useless, no need for all that. 

I made my argument, it is testing time for anyone that cares to give it some consideration. 

 

 

Edited April 15, 2021 by enaon

[Dreygun]

I turned the wheel on and sat on it  backwards to gain access to valves (like the block gives you), and was able to pump up and try different pressures that way a lot quicker than trying to get block out afterwards each time. 

Edited April 18, 2021 by Dreygun

[FinRider]

With the help of my friend yesterday, I tested the the shock pressures with and without the block in place. I have a 120 degree elbow fitted to the top positive valve for easy access.

without the block the shock is set up to 180/80

witht the block in place this equals to 200/50

–> so the ”block effect” on my S18 seems to be +20 on the positive chamber and -30 on the negative chamber

[enaon]

so you pumped 50 using the block, and it was then 80?

 

do a simple test if you like  to see the actual block effect.  Pump 150 in, using the block. See check what the pressure is after releasing, and the behaivor in general. Then do the same, pumping even more that 150 ofcource, you will see how much you should, depending on what it was released, and check if it behaves similar. 

Edited April 18, 2021 by enaon

[Lukasz]

On 4/13/2021 at 2:36 PM, enaon said:

In all cases, I manage to end up with 200/100 after the wheel rests, without the block.  All cases are at the end  the same psi wise. 

 

But, the procedure of inflating the negative chamber' while the brick is place, ends up with a dull shock, no matter the actual psi. 

If You inflate upper chamber with brick to 200PSI, when You remove block pressure DECREASE to around 180PSI. If You inflate lower chamber with brick to 100PSI, when You remove block this pressure ill INCREASE to around 150 PSI as this chamber is smaller, and this is why shock became "dull"

SOLUTION:  inflate top chamber with brick to around 220PSI (for rider weight with equipment of around 90kg) then remove brick and inflate the lower chamber to 50PSI  - done!

[enaon]

3 hours ago, Lukasz said:

If You inflate upper chamber with brick to 200PSI, when You remove block pressure DECREASE to around 180PSI. If You inflate lower chamber with brick to 100PSI, when You remove block this pressure ill INCREASE to around 150 PSI as this chamber is smaller, and this is why shock became "dull"

SOLUTION:  inflate top chamber with brick to around 220PSI (for rider weight with equipment of around 90kg) then remove brick and inflate the lower chamber to 50PSI  - done!

I know the down chambers pressure gets up when released, I wrote it too a few post back. I agree, if the bottom chamber is inflated with no brickin place, the blockage I am refering to is not happening. It is not related to psi only, something else is happening. Even if I remove the air from the bottom chamber, the shock remains blocked if it was inflated in high pressure using the brick.  

No brick is needed at all, the top valve can be accessed from the side hole of the frame if the linkage is moving all the way up.

Edited April 19, 2021 by enaon

[.....]

[Dreygun]

@enaon were the batch 2 and 3 s18 shocks you compared both the exact same shock model? Just curious as I thought they switched the shock to newer model at some point

[enaon]

8 hours ago, Dreygun said:

@enaon were the batch 2 and 3 s18 shocks you compared both the exact same shock model? Just curious as I thought they switched the shock to newer model at some point

yes, and they are now behaving the same, the story on the op was only to explain how I came to notice it. 

Guys, I am not asking something, I have verified it. If one is happy with the s18, just ignore this thread. But the s18 is a truly capable street machine, the best up to 50km/h, able to do unique things like apply the breaks while cornering downhill with full control,  if yours is not,  change the tire to a pirelli angel, trash the brick and tune the shock as the designer intended, both of the shock, and of the s18. I don't believe kingsong understands how good the s18 is designed to perform.  

this machine is designed for a proper tire, but a proper tire needs a responsive shock.  

Edited April 20, 2021 by enaon

[enaon]

I will try to explain why this thread exists, because it has taken a wrong track I am afraid. 

It is supposed to be a "ffs youtubers" kind of thread, in a polite way, but on a serious note. 

I will only mention chooch because I like his style of driving, I see this video of him, an cry out of despair. This s18 he drives is a disgrace, mine drove like that when I got it, like bad 4x4 dressed in sports outfit. I am a engineer, I can see the design is solid, I was lucky to find a post here about the pirelli angel that addressed what I had too noticed on stability, and lucky to notice the brick is to be left uncommented. 

Ignone the main verdit from yt reviewers or from this forum on the s18 up to now, fix your s18's suspension if the top valve is not freely accessible from the side hole, lube it, tune it, change the tire, and you will have the most capable street machine, not just capable. 

or don't, having fun is the main point anyway. 

 

 

Edited April 20, 2021 by enaon

[Ek.]

@enaon Not sure why your one point, made over and over, hasn't been clear to people (perhaps because it's quite different than what other people always ask or say about the block thing, so people are presuming that you must be asking the common things).

I can see that you have tested one condition while all others are equal (despite people misunderstanding your explanation of this equality).

The condition that you change is: pump the bottom chamber with or without the block in place. That means the same as: pump the bottom chamber with or without the suspension under weight.

All other conditions you have made sure are constant. You have measured the pressure always under the same condition: suspension not under weight. (This is despite the fact that you would have had to try to predict the bottom chamber non-weighted pressure while trying to pump it under weight.) You say the resulting non-weighted pressure was the same for all tests. No point debating that point, we just have to take your word for it.

You have also tested this on more than one S18 as far as I can tell, with the same result. The result is that pumping the bottom chamber while the suspension is under weight will reduce performance when all other factors are equal.

You are therefore recommending that no matter how difficult or easy it is to inflate the bottom chamber without the block, it should always be inflated with the suspension not under weight in order to maximise performance. Doesn't seem to matter as much for the top chamber.

I actually think ShanesPlanet understands your point, but he's making an additional point related to the more common discussion of the ease of reaching the valves. This is kind of addressing the fact that you are saying KingSong is accidentally advising people to perform a practice that reduces the effectiveness of the shock. He's saying they do that with no regard for performance, just as a workaround to the poor design of the shell cutout (which you already know and have recommended a different workaround for to allow for your recommendation to be easily followed).

On a side note: how strange. Can't think why that would happen. I don't have an S18 to repeat the tests on, sorry. I guess it would be difficult to keep all other factors equal between wheels anyway since manufacturing tolerances are probably too loose from wheel to wheel, e.g. assembly of the moving bits around the shock might affect performance in a way that appears the same. 

Is the bottom chamber the negative one then? Different posters are using different names for them.