Resolved: Narrowing down my ideal “Long Range” wheel (Used or New)

[EUC Sharkman]

EDIT:

Resolved:

-AlienRides Nikola AR+ 2700 Wh - These folks are local to me and have a great operation. Worked on a couple of my PEVs in the past, 2 year warranty, great service. Just announced on FB and was an instant buy. You're not gonna find a battery this size on a 16" wheel anytime soon. Made my day. So stoked. This summer is gonna be great.

 

Maybe someday:

EXN

Veteran Sherman

Probably not a fit:

-Monster Pro - More wheel than I probably need. Huge!

-Monster - Still a larger wheel than I’d like

-RS-19 not enough battery at the moment and I think I'd just be disappointed by not having enough range.

-v12 - Not gonna satisfy my range needs with a 1750 Wh battery

— Original Post

Hi all! Been loving my Tesla v2 (with 16 x 2.5” tire) for most of the activities I do with an EUC. I have been pushing it harder on rides lately though, so my range has taken a hit, usually hitting about 25 miles before reaching that 10% battery and needing to slow it down for more range. It still shines as a lightweight torquey agile train commuter/on the go road trip wheel, so I’ll keep it in the collection.

 

That said, there are two areas where I’m looking for perhaps a larger, more powerful complementary wheel, specifically for solo or group rides going on average, 23-28 mph and maybe in the 50-60 mile range before needing a charge, and something where seated riding is a comfortable option. (Tesla’s a tad small for me to sit on even with the popular bicycle seat mod)

 

I have kept the KS18XL in the back of my mind pocket based on past threads with folks who simply love this wheel as a solid all rounder, but will that suffice performance-wise for what I’m looking for? I’ve also been eyeing the Sherman (yes, hardly a wheel one would think of when seeing a thread with “cheapest” in the title) since it seems to have that upper bound of range and speed making it a very popular albeit expensive and heavy wheel. I do wonder if that’s just more wheel than what I really need though.
 

But I did want to check with folks here to weigh in on some other (possible bargain) wheels that may fit the requirements above. A lot of folks seem to like their Nikola+ as a wheel for group rides and decent range (Not a huge fan of the design, but the specs look solid), or their MSX 84v 1600Wh as well, which I’ve seen some good deals on the used market. Again though, I’m not sure if that’ll be enough for what I’m looking for, so mainly looking for owners of these wheels who can vouch for these performances. I’m not in a high rush to buy as I’m still happy with the Tesla , but I wanted to get some wheels in consideration. What do you all think?

Edited May 19, 2021 by TheSlyGiraffEV
Summarized current findings at top

[Tawpie]

It's gonna be all about battery.

50-60 miles at those speeds is a bigger battery than 1600 wH. Next time you're out see what your T2 is consuming when you're at your typical speed (wH/km), then the arithmetic will tell you what you should be eyeballing.

Edited April 13, 2021 by Tawpie

[EUC Sharkman]

6 minutes ago, Tawpie said:

It's gonna be all about battery.

50-60 miles at those speeds is a bigger battery than 1600 wH. Next time you're out see what your T2 is consuming when you're at your typical speed (wH/km), then the arithmetic will tell you what you should be eyeballing.

True. The other factor I didn’t mention was my riding weight of close to 240 lbs, so I’m guessing that ups the desired battery to closer to 1800+ wH. I’m keeping an eye on this list (https://forum.electricunicycle.org/topic/16880-update-april-2021-list-of-wheels-by-range-battery-size/) and will probably cross out everything past #7.

 

[Tawpie]

yep. And it's rider preference on how much safety margin you want after 50 miles, both range anxiety and "that unexpected bump in the road".

[Scottie888]

1 hour ago, Tawpie said:

It's gonna be all about battery.

If it makes sense, IMO its also about voltage. Incredible as it seems my Tesla 2 1480wh wheel gets more range (or at least the same) than a RS 1800wh at the same speeds, same ride & same locales under same weather conditions. Infact the RS is "new" with a 100kms at most at the beginning of our ride. 

Granted the rider on the RS is heavier (30+ lbs) & anecdotal but still, the RS has 300wh more juice. & this same formulaic result also seems to occur when comparing the RS to my S18. The range diff seems far less than what the wh implies.

[Tawpie]

56 minutes ago, Scottie888 said:

The range diff seems far less than what the wh implies

Indeed, it’s a rough order of magnitude kind of thing. There are a ton of variables including marketing fudging, but it’s probably safe to say that when you’re wanting to get near 100 km at +20 mph the 1600 wH class is cutting it very very close. At 25+ the 1800 class is going to be tight.

Me, I weigh less than @ShanesPlanet and cruise between 12-18 mph—I’m quite comfortable expecting 60 pavement miles from a 1554 wH full charge. But I haven’t ever pushed it that far (that’s a 4-5 hour ride not counting photo ops!) so I’m projecting.

[.....]

Im 130lbs and at 25mph I can get roughly 20 miles before throttling on my 1kw 18L. I would suspect that since you are already asking about an average of near 30mph, you are REALLY wanting a wheel that can safely do 40mph from time to time. When you say 50 miles, I also imagine you are talking about 50 miles before you start having to ride like a weenie. Best advice I can give is... go big or go home!

The 18XL is a great wheel and its a comfort class all arounder. It will not grant you an average of 28mph, as it only does 27mph. It also won't grant you anything near 50 miles at higher speeds. Its (18L) also my goto for joy riding in the sun to music w/o a care in the world. You want a wheel that can keep up for street cruise at speed and range... go BIG!

The sherman is a beast of a wheel to handle at low speeds. It is also a GREAT (and expensive) cruiser. It will grant you a 30+mph average for an easy 50+miles. I KNOW it seems like it will give you twice that, but it won't. Just remember, no matter what wheel you choose, you will want to rely on way less than its max specs. Overhead in the euc game isnt a nice thing, its an imperative thing.

I abhor my sherman for slow joy rides. I adore it for non-stop flights of speed and distance. No range anxiety at all, as I'm wearing faster than the battery does. Fwiw, I'm 6'3 and the sherm seat is pretty damn low for me to use. Its fun for moments of time at 30mph (im sure it looks hilarious too), but i find it as exhausting to sit (or more so) as to stand, for the lack of vertical room. Makes me feel like a big circus monkey riding a tiny trike.

Edited April 13, 2021 by ShanesPlanet

[EUC Sharkman]

Thanks for the comments! Definitely a lot to consider here. I do get the feeling that it's going to be only the highest spec wheels available that will cover some of the aspects I mentioned in my opening post. Part of the reason I'm not in a huge rush to buy is because I'm also deciding whether or not I'll actually then be able to frequently go on these long marathon rides at that higher speed. The last thing I'd want to do is get an expensive awesome wheel and then have it collect dust because I just end up riding my Tesla for most of my rides.

 

Battery size is a good consideration to at least start with though, so even if I decide that I probably won't end up riding that often in that 30 mph zone/60 mile range to warrant an expensive top wheel purchase, I can see more frequent situations where I'd want a wheel to ride further than the 25 miles I get on my Tesla...maybe cut down the pace to more of a 20-25 mph riding speed. That opens up wheel selection a little bit.

[.....]

Its much easier to just buy bigger than you would need, when you arent paying more and having to physically handle the thing. I get what you mean. I have an 18L that covers 95% of my rides. It is not that often I ride more than 10-15 miles. I also find that 25mph aint such a bad pace to get used to. There's a comfort in just doing 25mph in the sunshine and knowing you can't, shouldnt and won't need push it any faster. I guess it kinda takes  away the adrenaline and desire to keep pushing, and enables a more 'joyful' ride. I do enjoy my sherman, but its just not being used as much as I figured. There are times when I will NEED the range, and sometimes I like the speed. In all honesty tho, its more like an RV to me. It sits waiting and waiting until only IT can do what needs be. If i was always riding my smaller wheel flat empty and always needing to go faster, it would be different. I force myself to take the sherman on short joy rides, but quickly regret it. Its just a lot of damn wheel to toss around, when yuo are just taking a quick smoke break ride. Getting hit by 80lbs sucks ass too. No damn music either! However, the Sherm CAN go slow and CAN go fast. Therefore it kind of needs be in my garage, as having it to use once in a while, suits me better than missing a chance when I needed it. Its definitely a luxury and I am VERY spoiled.

[Scottie888]

@TheSlyGiraffEV I wonder why the EX.N is not a good fit? The current perspective is that its a super (2x!) RS with MSP type handling. Wrongway just had his review on YT & he got a 0-60kph of 6.1 secs! Ya its not supercar spds but damn if its not fast sportscar territory. He also says handling is topnotch sportscar like & makes the Sherman a cruiser by comparo. 

Some peeps have been gettin 75-80ish kph topend which jives with the 10x kph no load spin. Going with a 23w/km, I'm thinking somewhere in the 120kms (75miles) realworld range, give or take depending on ave spd, wind condition & rider weight.

Chooch treated his with marine grease on bearings & been riding it on snow & slush with zero issues...so far. I'm sure its not perfect (what is?) but ease of disassembly makes maintenance, cleaning & weather proofing pretty simple. I've a buddy in tropical Asia that loves the EX.N despite having access to all sorts of wheels incl the Sherm. He says its the torquiest, smoothest wheel ever & seated riding is amazing.

I like it & am seriously thinking of being an owner myself.  

[EUC Sharkman]

59 minutes ago, Scottie888 said:

@TheSlyGiraffEV I wonder why the EX.N is not a good fit? The current perspective is that its a super (2x!) RS with MSP type handling. Wrongway just had his review on YT & he got a 0-60kph of 6.1 secs! Ya its not supercar spds but damn if its not fast sportscar territory. He also says handling is topnotch sportscar like & makes the Sherman a cruiser by comparo. 

Some peeps have been gettin 75-80ish kph topend which jives with the 10x kph no load spin. Going with a 23w/km, I'm thinking somewhere in the 120kms (75miles) realworld range, give or take depending on ave spd, wind condition & rider weight.

Chooch treated his with marine grease on bearings & been riding it on snow & slush with zero issues...so far. I'm sure its not perfect (what is?) but ease of disassembly makes maintenance, cleaning & weather proofing pretty simple. I've a buddy in tropical Asia that loves the EX.N despite having access to all sorts of wheels incl the Sherm. He says its the torquiest, smoothest wheel ever & seated riding is amazing.

I like it & am seriously thinking of being an owner myself.  

I too was pretty curious about the EX/EX.N based on comments and videos this far, and you’re absolutely right...the performance looks amazing and unmatched in torque/acceleration, in range, in speed capability...all checking boxes for being great wheel specs that heavier riders can feel comfortable riding around. It’s more the build quality and potential high maintenance that gives me pause, especially at that premium price tag. Will keep an eye on it if newer shipments make some improvements in this regard.

[Scottie888]

11 minutes ago, TheSlyGiraffEV said:

 It’s more the build quality and potential high maintenance that gives me pause, especially at that premium price tag. 

I get you brother & I really can't argue with the build & QA. That said, its build does seem much better than the MSX & there's been lots of recorded cases of MSXs hitting 10k miles so there's that. IMO from tear downs, besides the current (or maybe now past) hollow bore bearings issues, there's really nothing that can't be easily fixed with $10-20 worth of marine grease & a tube of silicon. Simple is as simple does & simple does have its own benefits.

I can't agree with the higher maintenance though. Regardless of which make, its not a bad idea to open it up every few hundred miles to give it good blowjob (or suckjob😅) esp since teardowns seems so easy. Other than that mentioned above, tire/tube replacements are about the only maintenance, talking of which I'd personally change it to a good dual sport tire (kenda k262, duro hf307 or similar) to make it much better for offroad as well.

Far's price go, the extra range is worth the few hundo premium over the RS. But I do agree that it could be cheaper but then any & everything could always be cheaper. Too early to tell as yet but the EX.N might turn out to be the best value performance with range wheel so far.

Sherman for comfort, range & mayhaps better build quality but EX.N for performance & handling. At least, its not a hard choice.

[EUC Sharkman]

I do have to say that in watching videos and reading up on forum and Facebook posts that I’ve really come to appreciate the advances in just the past couple of years for EUCs. The kind of wheel I’m looking for right now didn’t even really exist past that two year point, and now three fairly recent wheels in the Sherman, Monster Pro, and EX/EX.N have that big 2700+ Wh battery range power that does those upwards of 60 mile rides. As I’m not in a huge rush still, the smart thing to do would be to keep watching for more developments as I continue to save up the cash.

[mrelwood]

On 4/13/2021 at 3:01 AM, Tawpie said:

It's gonna be all about battery.

50-60 miles at those speeds is a bigger battery than 1600 wH. Next time you're out see what your T2 is consuming when you're at your typical speed (wH/km), then the arithmetic will tell you what you should be eyeballing.

While in theory you are absolutely correct, there are a few things that make things a bit more complicated than that.

- GW goes down to 3.3V per cell, 18XL goes down to 3.0V, and most other wheels go down to 3.15V. That gives the 18XL almost 30% of battery left when a GW is already at zero.

- GW doesn’t report battery current, but some arbitrary form of phase current. That’s why all consumption measurements from a GW are way off, Wh/km included.

 Neither of those make an order of magnitude of difference, but the latter does make the readings multiple times higher than expected.

Edited April 14, 2021 by mrelwood

[EUC Sharkman]

Hi all! On AliEx I saw this posting for a 2021 Nikola 100v that got me curious. Basically a Nikola 100v with a 2700 Wh battery. That size of a battery definitely puts it in consideration as a long range wheel but still maintaining agility given it's just that 16" x 3" tire. That's pretty amazing, but also sparks the "too good to be true" factor for me.

https://m.aliexpress.com/i/4001030449531.html

 

Anyone have any experience with this particular wheel, or battery cell type? Anyone have solid reasons why this is too good to be true? My off the top of my head concern is the battery fire concerns that happened not too long ago potentially associated with the Nikola. Thoughts?

[Planemo]

Probably not the best name for the company...

'Flame Wheel Store' 

[RagingGrandpa]

55 minutes ago, TheSlyGiraffEV said:

Nikola 100v with a 2700 Wh battery

Buyer beware.

"Tesla 21700" cells.

There is significant concern about sourcing of those cells, because they were never offered for sale as new. They may be "take-offs", removed from packs that were unfit for use in EV's. The cells may be perfectly fine and new, but the concern is because they are taken from "defective" packs, we can't be sure each cell was re-tested before assembly to into an EUC.

"Custom battery"

3rd-party battery packs have a poor reputation. The attention to detail (both in design and manufacturing) is usually much lower than OEM packs (Gotway). It means they are more likely to fail, potentially resulting in cut-out (crash) or fire.
 

A Sherman is cheap compared to an ER bill

[Tawpie]

How'd they stuff an EX.N battery into a Nik+ shell? Wash it on hot?

Edited April 29, 2021 by Tawpie

[EUC Sharkman]

2 hours ago, Tawpie said:

How'd they stuff an EX.N battery into a Nik+ shell? Wash it on hot?

I heard there’s a lot of room in Nik shells... like the clown car of EUC shells.

[Planemo]

9 hours ago, Tawpie said:

How'd they stuff an EX.N battery into a Nik+ shell? Wash it on hot?

Not forgetting that 1Radwerkstat did the (correctly titled) 2664Wh Nik ages ago. Theres loads of room in a Nik

[Giffy]

I can say, the most disappointing thing about the RS is certainly the range.

[Planemo]

6 minutes ago, Giffy said:

I can say, the most disappointing thing about the RS is certainly the range.

Yeah its certainly a juice-sucker, more so than the MSX. I know someone who put an RS board in their MSX and lost range, although it may add a little more punch.

[Giffy]

@Planemo I have the MSP and wanted something that could handle higher speeds with less battery drain so I got the RS. Probably just going to get the Sherman now lol
I wonder if putting the MSX board in the RS improves the range? 🤔 I don't need that punch when I have the MSP.

[Planemo]

I think you have the MSP HT though? The MSX board wont work with the HT motor afaik.

[mike_bike_kite]

Personally I'd go for the Sherman as it will hit any speed you want and go for as long as your legs will last. It seems very reliable too. 

I personally wouldn't go for the EX mainly because of the price but also because of the potential reliability issues: there's the hollow bearings which fail far too soon, there's issues with some of their 100v batteries bursting into flame and there's the worry about how long a suspension system based on 1200 psi pressure will last in a rough environment. I also wouldn't go with the Monster Pro as, whatever question you ask, the Sherman seems to be a better answer.

The 100v Nikola+ has space near the top of the wheel for an additional battery but it's not done by Gotway. The 84v version had an official 2100Wh version that might be OK for you if you're happy to cruise at a slightly slower speed.