Alpinestar Tech-Air 5 Saved Me

[conecones]

Seems like yet another contraption to throw money at to bring mislead confidence to people who cannot(or is unwilling to accept the risk of) taking a fall going at "X" speed to continue riding at "X" speed...

We've already got guys rolling around at bicycle speeds dressed like Optimus Prime - more heavily geared than the typical guy at a weekend motocross event or a daily motorcycle commuter and yet the consensus is that "no, I need more/better gear to be totally safe". Maybe the focus should be shifted to behavioral since a piece of gear can only take the safety level so far given that EUC riding is inherently dangerous? 

Anyone can end up in the ER just walking around the block if they trip - but that is a risk we understand so if falling is likely due to say bad weather, we automatically mitigate risk using behavior such as walking slower. We don't immediately pull out the motocross helmet and then complain we need the next high tech invention because the helmet didn't reduce all injuries.

I think we should be asking what caused the OP to take two high speed falls in 6 months (and what, if anything could have been done to prevent them) and less focused in comparing the effectiveness of hardshell armor vs airbag jacket in preventing injuries that are so difficult to replicate given each fall has so many variables for any meaningful comparison to be made over the forums.

 

[rdalcanto]

Conecones - You make some good points, but....  Riding an EUC at 30mph is far more dangerous than riding a road bike at the same speed.  Not only do you have the shut off risk with an EUC, but you aren't planted on it if you hit a bump the way you are on a bike.  However, if you want to really use it for commuting at 30 mph, then it is smart to protect yourself because the risks of a hard crash are very real, and many injuries will be with you for the rest of your life.  Personally, I like the idea of the airbag jacket.  I've never seen or worn one, but it has to be far more comfortable and less bulky then having hard physical pads all over your upper body.  We come here to learn, and the airbag jacket is an interesting option.

[conecones]

I generally see two kinds of EUC riders: 1) Riders not wanting to accept the dangers of EUC riding and looking to avoid falls if at all possible and live by "ATGATT", geared to the teeth to give themselves the confidence that they will be OK even if they do take the rare fall. 2) Riders who have fully accepted the risks involved, and embraced the fact that falls will happen and is necessary to progress (usually riders interested in learning stunts, off-roading, other high risk riding, etc.), and wear enough gear to be comfortable with their personal risk assessment.

I can see the appeal for this airbag for group #1, but I just want to point out the dangerous logic in how the OP has positioned their opinion. Paraphrasing the OP:
"I fell at high speed and didn't feel a thing because I wore this airbag vest. 6 months ago, I also fell at high speed but didn't have this vest and felt pain for 3 days". Not a single person asked about how the falls happened and if they are even comparable, and the only interest is in the value proposition of this vest, and if its worth it. We shouldn't fool ourselves into thinking any piece of safety gear is a cheat code to avoid injury. If you cannot/unwilling to risk taking a fall doing 50kmh (because of previous injuries or whatnot), then the best solution is DON'T RIDE AT 50 kmh. 

[GreyRider]

38 minutes ago, conecones said:

I generally see two kinds of EUC riders: 1) Riders not wanting to accept the dangers of EUC riding and looking to avoid falls if at all possible and live by "ATGATT", geared to the teeth to give themselves the confidence that they will be OK even if they do take the rare fall. 2) Riders who have fully accepted the risks involved, and embraced the fact that falls will happen and is necessary to progress (usually riders interested in learning stunts, off-roading, other high risk riding, etc.), and wear enough gear to be comfortable with their personal risk assessment.

I can see the appeal for this airbag for group #1, but I just want to point out the dangerous logic in how the OP has positioned their opinion. Paraphrasing the OP:
"I fell at high speed and didn't feel a thing because I wore this airbag vest. 6 months ago, I also fell at high speed but didn't have this vest and felt pain for 3 days". Not a single person asked about how the falls happened and if they are even comparable, and the only interest is in the value proposition of this vest, and if its worth it. We shouldn't fool ourselves into thinking any piece of safety gear is a cheat code to avoid injury. If you cannot/unwilling to risk taking a fall doing 50kmh (because of previous injuries or whatnot), then the best solution is DON'T RIDE AT 50 kmh. 

I am 54 years old. I have always been a risk taker and I am going to ride at 50kmh. I am crazy enough to accept the risk, but wise enough to mitigate the risk if possible. When I flew ultralight aircraft, I had a ballistic parachute attached to my plane. When I go scuba diving, I never go without a buddy and redundant systems. I have the money for an airbag vest and when I ride on pavement I am going to wear it. It's comfortable, I can afford it, so why not. 

I shared my experience to maybe help someone else avoid injury. I am fully aware I could still get hurt wearing the vest, but it does reduce the odds of serious injury. I don't know why that is controversial.  

[Camenbert]

The riders not wanting to accept the dangers of EUC are not riding EUC, simple.

To not confuse with Riders not wanting to accept stupid injuries of EUC riding

 

[Scottie888]

Bottomline's ppl should wear whatever they want (or not). IMO there's no such thing as too safe, only whether its practical & more importantly, affordable.

This Tech Air 5 system is pretty cool & I'd likely borrow plastic money to get one if I was still actively riding my sportbikes or maybe even on a monster escoot. On EUCs, its helmet, pads & a daily kettlebell regime for me.

Not saying it'll save my life but so far I've not heard of a single case of EUC death by crashing. Only getting dead when run over by multi ton wrecking balls so I'll stay far (far far) away from them. I'm unsure airbags will help with 'em steel balls 😳

[conecones]

2 hours ago, GreyRider said:

I am 54 years old. I have always been a risk taker and I am going to ride at 50kmh. I am crazy enough to accept the risk, but wise enough to mitigate the risk if possible. When I flew ultralight aircraft, I had a ballistic parachute attached to my plane. When I go scuba diving, I never go without a buddy and redundant systems. I have the money for an airbag vest and when I ride on pavement I am going to wear it. It's comfortable, I can afford it, so why not. 

I shared my experience to maybe help someone else avoid injury. I am fully aware I could still get hurt wearing the vest, but it does reduce the odds of serious injury. I don't know why that is controversial.  

I salute you for fully accepting the risk, and I understand why you shared this product since it worked so well for you. I just wanted to caution that even though your experience with this vest was so dramatic (no pain anywhere), it may not reflect the experiences of others who fall using a vest like this and this should be an important disclaimer when promoting any safety gear. The last thing we want is more naïve people getting into EUC and finding out the hard way that even while fully geared they can suffer broken bones, dislocated shoulders and other life-changing injuries inherent to this activity (Black Cobra being the most recent example, and going only 20 mph).

Do you recall what caused your crashes and how you landed in the first fall vs second fall? Was it mainly a back, chest or shoulder impact?

[Camenbert]

26 minutes ago, conecones said:

this should be an important disclaimer when promoting any safety gear. The last thing we want is more naïve people getting into EUC

SERIOUSLY ?!
A disclaimer when "promoting" safety gear ?
The last thing we want is more naïve people getting into EUC equipped with airbags???

Don't you want to promote safe ridding on the VIDEO THREAD, that might make sense

 

[Scottie888]

20 minutes ago, Camenbert said:

SERIOUSLY ?!
A disclaimer when "promoting" safety gear ?
The last thing we want is more naïve people getting into EUC equipped with airbags???

Don't you want to promote safe ridding on the VIDEO THREAD, that might make sense

Could be wrong but me thinks @conecones 's "disclaimer" isn't so much about airbags or even safety per se but instead, a disclaimer to to warn of a false sense of security when putting faith in gear (no matter which & what). Esp for the uninitiated.

In some ways I do agree. The best of gear do not & cannot substitute rider skill nor sitware. Indeed I have a leftover Aerostitch Roadcrafter one piece from my superbike days & wearing it for EUC rides, I feel like I've superman's cape on. Then before I know it, I started to go faster (much faster than the environment dictates) & take a lot more risks.

So I get it. Sometimes a false sense of security is just as dangerous as no security. Maybe even more deadly. I think thats all he's saying.

[Camenbert]

OK then, but if that's the nature of humane, what do you want to do?

At least airbag does not look like much -until it eventually inflate.
So you can eventually (in you behavior) forget about it.

 

[Roadpower]

This is up to the rider but IMO, for the large majority of EUC riders a airbag vest is well over the top of appropriate safety gear. A more readily argued beneficiary of a airbag vest would be a motorcyclist. I would sooner start with a padded or armored jacket if the rider felt it was needed.

[Scottie888]

11 minutes ago, Camenbert said:

OK then, but if that's the nature of humane, what do you want to do?

Nothing really. This is a forum no so we're here to discuss. Sometimes in agreement & oft times, not so much. Regardless discussion is the raison d'etre of being here. Not all things are just right & wrong or black & white. There's lots of shades in btwn & knowledge is the point.

Living in a bubble of one isn't always a good thing. Sometimes its just as good to step out of it & see other povs.

[Skeptikos]

Most armored jackets don't offer much in terms of chest and rib protection, which is a recurring site of EUC injuries. There's also doubt about whether they provide enough shoulder protection. The Alpinestars airbag vest covers both of those areas very well. If anything it's the armored jackets that are more appropriate for motorcyclists in terms of the areas they choose to protect. They seem to be meant mostly for falling sideways and backwards.

[rdalcanto]

20 hours ago, conecones said:

We shouldn't fool ourselves into thinking any piece of safety gear is a cheat code to avoid injury. If you cannot/unwilling to risk taking a fall doing 50kmh (because of previous injuries or whatnot), then the best solution is DON'T RIDE AT 50 kmh. 

Your argument is like saying if you aren't willing to crash you car at 50mph without a seatbelt, you shouldn't be driving at 50 mph with a seatbelt. We are just standing on two pedals, directly over the center of gravity, while moving over the pavement at high speed.  Finding yourself doing a Superman imitation at some point if your ride long enough is a real possibility.  Crashing from an EUC without protective gear is more likely to result in a potentially serious injury.  If someone doesn't mind the time to put pads/guards on, then it makes sense to wear them and hopefully never need them.  Will pads or jackets protect you from all injuries?  Of course not, but better than nothing, and you can't put them on while you're already falling.  There is a saying in Aviation, where many crashes are the result of pilots running out of fuel - "You can't use the fuel you left in the fuel truck".

[Camenbert]

Interesting video, or entertaining, about Airbag

At the end Alpinestars, because no one wants a lanyard system on EUC.

Or the cost advantage (recharged at home) is enough to cancel that disadvantage?

[Roadpower]

On a side note FortNine is easily in the top tier of videographers. Been watching him for a few years now.

[litewave]

On 6/2/2021 at 1:52 PM, GreyRider said:

I am 54 years old. I have always been a risk taker and I am going to ride at 50kmh. I am crazy enough to accept the risk, but wise enough to mitigate the risk if possible. When I flew ultralight aircraft, I had a ballistic parachute attached to my plane. When I go scuba diving, I never go without a buddy and redundant systems. I have the money for an airbag vest and when I ride on pavement I am going to wear it. It's comfortable, I can afford it, so why not. 

I shared my experience to maybe help someone else avoid injury. I am fully aware I could still get hurt wearing the vest, but it does reduce the odds of serious injury. I don't know why that is controversial.  

Good on ya. I'm glad you shared your experience with the airbag and hope you continue to do so. I suspect that much of the negative reaction is related to price, comfort/convenience, and  aesthetics.

I think the price on these will decline over time, once the tech becomes more mainstream. Maybe Begode should offer as an add-on for all their high-speed wheels. If one EUC manufacturer tries it, others may follow.

[shellac]

1 hour ago, Camenbert said:

Interesting video, or entertaining, about Airbag

At the end Alpinestars, because no one wants a lanyard system on EUC.

Or the cost advantage (recharged at home) is enough to cancel that disadvantage?

The problem with the lanyard one, besides the obvious issue of having it attached to the euc, is that it doesn’t  cover the shoulder anyhow. 

[Camenbert]

The problem with the lanyard one is that it won't work for faceplant, the wheel being still near you.

But I like the $25 gas cartridge you can exchange at home. It can be too sensitive it wont matter so much
(and will anyway never stop getting better with feedback/firmware updates).

At the end of the day, best airbag will be the specific one for EUC...!
So when will be a petition?

Edited June 6, 2021 by Camenbert

[GreyRider]

On 6/2/2021 at 5:52 PM, Roadpower said:

This is up to the rider but IMO, for the large majority of EUC riders a airbag vest is well over the top of appropriate safety gear. A more readily argued beneficiary of a airbag vest would be a motorcyclist. I would sooner start with a padded or armored jacket if the rider felt it was needed.

In my crash from 6 months ago, I went off the front of the wheel and flipped in the air and landed on my back. I had an armored motorcycle jacket on, but no airbag. I had zero external bruises. The problem was I hit the pavement so hard it jarred my internal organs. The pain was extreme, and  I couldn't sleep for three days even with pain medication. According to Alpinestars, the airbag gives the same protection as wearing 18 back protectors. Also the airbag inflates really tight and acts as one unit. Much of the force of impact will travel around your body. On a unicycle, one is going to hit the ground much harder than a motorcycle going the same speed in a crash. You are basically a pendulum. So, for me, I don't think it is over the top of appropriate safety gear. I don't think anything that is practical to wear and provides more protection should be considered over the top. Each rider can decide what is appropriate for them, but we shouldn't discourage anyone taking steps to be more safe.

Edited June 6, 2021 by GreyRider

[Roadpower]

59 minutes ago, GreyRider said:

In my crash from 6 months ago, I went off the front of the wheel and flipped in the air and landed on my back. I had an armored motorcycle jacket on, but no airbag. I had zero external bruises. The problem was I hit the pavement so hard it jarred my internal organs. The pain was extreme, and  I couldn't sleep for three days even with pain medication. According to Alpinestars, the airbag gives the same protection as wearing 18 back protectors. Also the airbag inflates really tight and acts as one unit. Much of the force of impact will travel around your body. On a unicycle, one is going to hit the ground much harder than a motorcycle going the same speed in a crash. Your basically a pendulum. So, for me, I don't think it is over the top of appropriate safety gear. I don't think anything that is practical to wear and provides more protection should be considered over the top. Each rider can decide what is appropriate for them, but we shouldn't discourage anyone taking steps to be more safe.

What you're talking about is both anecdotal and subjective. Not even a majority of motorcycle riders wear air bags, in fact I would wager that the number doesn't even break 1%. Expecting wide adoption of them for EUC riders is unrealistic and not going to happen unless the devices become a faction of their expense now and have perceptible benefits that outweigh the negatives such as the numerous encumbrances that are a default by product of such a device.

I appreciate your point of view and such an issue as you mention is always going to be up to the individual rider. If you maintain interest in this then the advocacy should be directed at motorcycle riders who have arguably more invested and would certainly be the main early adopters of such a tech. I ride a motorcycle myself (truth be told my EUC has almost completely replaced my motorcycle (due to I don't ride for pleasure) but that is another discussion) and as such have a very minuscule interest in airbags at this time.

[Skeptikos]

9 hours ago, Camenbert said:

At the end of the day, best airbag will be the specific one for EUC...!

So when will be a petition?

It looks like the practical way to do this is to partner with In&motion, which already makes airbag vests for motorcycles, horse riders, and skiers. The same way that flatland3d partners with Knox, and Lazyrolling partners with SAS-TEC. In the meantime, if you want one that's made for something closer to our movements, maybe you could try the skiing one.

Edited June 6, 2021 by Skeptikos

[Jan Bermudez]

On 6/1/2021 at 11:43 PM, GreyRider said:

I got mine recharged for $180. It is $300 after the 3rd deployment, because they make you replace the bladder after the 3rd deployment.

@GreyRider do Tech Air 5 deploy in a uneven roads or road with a bumps and gravels? Any experience?