Boris Lämpel Posted April 8, 2021 Posted April 8, 2021 In several reviews it is said that the RS HS feels much more torqy than the MSP HS. But why? They use both 100.8 V and the C30 motor. Where comes the power rating 2000 W / 2600 W from? Did they change the diameter of the motor? Quote
Resko727 Posted April 8, 2021 Posted April 8, 2021 (edited) The hollow motor is a bigger diameter so has more magnets and more leverage on wheel. Also the they switched to 21700 cells so they have access to more amps 15 per cell vs 10amp. Edited April 8, 2021 by Resko727 Quote
EMA Posted April 9, 2021 Posted April 9, 2021 it's all about firmware and inertia (hollow wheels has a bit more weight), motor are exactly the same, c30 for speed and c38 for torque. 3 Quote
Resko727 Posted April 9, 2021 Posted April 9, 2021 20 hours ago, null said: 21700 cells haven’t lived up to the hype for now, they might have higher output, but being fewer in parallel is defeating the higher Amps. AFAIK they have also shown a tendency to sag. As for the motor diameter; I thought the motor was the same, like @Boris Lämpel mentions. Do you have a source to confirm the larger diameter? I’m probably mistaken then I thought I read the hollow motor was bigger. As far as voltage sag I’m not sure.the ex.n with 2700wh bigger battery and c30 motor has a rating of 2800watts. So there must be something going on. 1 Quote
meepmeepmayer Posted April 9, 2021 Posted April 9, 2021 15 hours ago, EMA said: it's all about firmware and inertia (hollow wheels has a bit more weight), motor are exactly the same, c30 for speed and c38 for torque. This. With an electric motor, you can essentially force as much torque out of the motor as you like and be (as a consequence) as energy-inefficient as you like. The electronics and battery just must be able to play along. The firmware does the rest. So I believe it's a firmware decision, which itself is influenced by the electronics/battery and maybe growing experience what can and can't be done. The 18XL had some firmware update that greatly improved its torque, obviously the hardware didn't change. 18 minutes ago, Resko727 said: I’m probably mistaken then I thought I read the hollow motor was bigger. You might have confused that with the new EX/Monster Pro motor. It fills out the entire "18 inch" ring, whereas the old MSX/MSP HS/RS HS motor is a "16 inch" motor (Nikola has it too, unless I'm mixing something up). HS motor: "16 inch", C30 (30mm wide magnets) HT motor: "16 inch", C38 EX/Monster Pro motor: "18 inch", C40 No idea how they come up with the motor ratings. They seem to be influenced by the input (battery), which is strange. I don't think the ratings mean much, at least if they don't tell us how they get them. 2 Quote
mrelwood Posted April 9, 2021 Posted April 9, 2021 11 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said: No idea how they come up with the motor ratings. They seem to be influenced by the input (battery), which is strange. I don't think the ratings mean much, at least if they don't tell us how they get them. Wise wonderings. While the nominal power of any electric motor is simply the power it’s able to handle for an extended period of time, EUC motor power “ratings” are a marketing number that may or may not reflect the power the battery and the controller are able to create. There are three power rating values we would be interested in: controller, battery, and motor, the latter being the least important. How we ended up in getting only a single arbitrary battery + controller power rating presented as motor power rating, is one of the great wonders of the world of EUCs. 2 Quote
Boris Lämpel Posted April 9, 2021 Author Posted April 9, 2021 So it comes, that the Z6, Z8 and Z10 all have different power ratings (1200W - 1800W) whilst the motors are completely the same. Differences are just the battery and the firmware. I did not know that the firmware is able to give more effectively usable power / torque. So if the motherboards were interchangeable, the MSP HS with RS board would be as torqy as the RS HS is? Quote
Resko727 Posted April 9, 2021 Posted April 9, 2021 1 hour ago, meepmeepmayer said: This. With an electric motor, you can essentially force as much torque out of the motor as you like and be (as a consequence) as energy-inefficient as you like. The electronics and battery just must be able to play along. The firmware does the rest. So I believe it's a firmware decision, which itself is influenced by the electronics/battery and maybe growing experience what can and can't be done. The 18XL had some firmware update that greatly improved its torque, obviously the hardware didn't change. You might have confused that with the new EX/Monster Pro motor. It fills out the entire "18 inch" ring, whereas the old MSX/MSP HS/RS HS motor is a "16 inch" motor (Nikola has it too, unless I'm mixing something up). HS motor: "16 inch", C30 (30mm wide magnets) HT motor: "16 inch", C38 EX/Monster Pro motor: "18 inch", C40 No idea how they come up with the motor ratings. They seem to be influenced by the input (battery), which is strange. I don't think the ratings mean much, at least if they don't tell us how they get them. The rim size on the rs 19 is 14inch and the motor doesn’t go all the way to the rim edge so not sure why you call it 16inch? the ex is same size rim and goes all way to edge. I really don’t understand why wheels are classified by tire size and not rim size makes no sense to me. Quote
Tawpie Posted April 10, 2021 Posted April 10, 2021 3 hours ago, Resko727 said: I really don’t understand why wheels are classified by tire size Because bigger number is automatically better silly. 3 Quote
Popular Post mrelwood Posted April 10, 2021 Popular Post Posted April 10, 2021 (edited) 5 hours ago, Resko727 said: The rim size on the rs 19 is 14inch and the motor doesn’t go all the way to the rim edge so not sure why you call it 16inch? They were in parenthesis, as he only referred to the motor size being the same as on a 16” EUC. Quote I really don’t understand why wheels are classified by tire size and not rim size makes no sense to me. I think all personal transport vehicles are classified by tire size. Bicycles, e-scooters, hoverboards etc. Only motorcycles are classified by rim size along with cars. Besides, go to the marketing department (the one @Tawpie works in... 😜 ) with an EUC you designed that has a 14” rim and a tire that has 18” stamped on the side and ask which would they prefer to call it by... The system worked really well until GW started plusoneing their wheel sizes. That’s when alle hölle broke loose. Now people think that 20” is bigger than 18”. Which it isn’t of course. Edited April 10, 2021 by mrelwood 6 Quote
Boris Lämpel Posted April 10, 2021 Author Posted April 10, 2021 With bicycles there is the same problem. The 28" touring bikes use the same rim (just a bit narrower) as the 29" MTBs. Actually the rim size is 28" for both. Quote
meepmeepmayer Posted April 10, 2021 Posted April 10, 2021 (edited) 9 hours ago, Resko727 said: The rim size on the rs 19 is 14inch and the motor doesn’t go all the way to the rim edge so not sure why you call it 16inch? the ex is same size rim and goes all way to edge. I really don’t understand why wheels are classified by tire size and not rim size makes no sense to me. As the others already said, that's why I put the sizes in quotes, that's just how the wheels are called by the manufacturers It believe "16 inch wheel" is 12 inches rim size, and "18 -20 inch wheels" are 14. And I don't think one way is naturally better than the other. Maybe on motorcycles/cars the rim size is more important, as you need some kind of machine to get the tires on, and you need to have the right machine? While on a bike, EUC, etc you can do the tire change by hand, and buying the wrong size tire isn't as bad as buying the wrong size machine. It's the only explanation (other than coincidence) I can come up with. You could also argue that the outer diameter matters more for EUC buyers. After all, a 16x2.125 (Tesla etc.) wheel rides very differently from a 16x2.5 wheel (V10F) or 16x3 wheel (Nikola, 16X). The real problem is, they are all called 16 inchers, so saying "16 inches" there really removes all sense that it could have possibly had, when they could have said 16, 17, and 17.75 inches (or whatever the exact numbers are) which might have had more meaning than "12 inches rim size". Now we only know that all "16 inch" wheels have the same rim size, but it isn't actually 16 inches. At least with the 18-20 wheels they do make a distinction purely based on the outer tire diameter, resulting from different tire widths on the same rim. It's a step in the right direction. If only the numbers were true - I think "18 inch" is more like 19 in reality, "19" is 20 (or more?), and "20" is like "19" just with a bit more knobby tire. It's a mess We just need to make sense somehow of the information given to us. Edited April 10, 2021 by meepmeepmayer 2 Quote
meepmeepmayer Posted April 10, 2021 Posted April 10, 2021 9 hours ago, Boris Lämpel said: So if the motherboards were interchangeable, the MSP HS with RS board would be as torqy as the RS HS is? Probably. I don't really know, so don't quote me on that, but this is how it seems to be. I mean, the motor is the same (minus the hollow core vs. thinner axle thing), the battery is the same... what else is it going to be? 1 Quote
EMA Posted April 10, 2021 Posted April 10, 2021 6 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said: Probably. I don't really know, so don't quote me on that, but this is how it seems to be. I mean, the motor is the same (minus the hollow core vs. thinner axle thing), the battery is the same... what else is it going to be? you can't swap boards betweek MSP and RS becouse they are mounted differently, msp is horrizontal, rs is vertical. 6 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said: At least with the 18-20 wheels they do make a distinction purely based on the outer tire diameter, resulting from different tire widths on the same rim. It's a step in the right direction. If only the numbers were true - I think "18 inch" is more like 19 in reality, "19" is 20 (or more?), and "20" is like "19" just with a bit more knobby tire. It's a mess We just need to make sense somehow of the information given to us. yes... 16x3 is 17' 18x3 is 19' 20 inch do not exit, basically is like 19.x (someone measured 19.4) back to topic i don't know what "magic" they put in the newest firmware but they are awesome. 1 Quote
mrelwood Posted April 10, 2021 Posted April 10, 2021 2 hours ago, EMA said: 16x3 is 17' 18x3 is 19' 20 inch do not exit The first two lines is GW math only. KS 16X (16x3) is, as the name pretty clearly states, a 16” wheel. And Inmotion V11 as well as KS S18 are 18” wheels, with an 18x3 tire. But the last line doesn’t hold true, at least if you ask either GW or Veteran... 1 Quote
EMA Posted April 10, 2021 Posted April 10, 2021 51 minutes ago, mrelwood said: But the last line doesn’t hold true, at least if you ask either GW or Veteran... having and EX i know pretty well... a tesla is 16', v10 is 16.x, nik and 16x are 17' imho every brand should label with the real diameter, 17' and 19' are real size if you measure it 20 inch is just marketing, that's why they report overrated speed in firmware, at least in the first versions 1 Quote
mrelwood Posted April 10, 2021 Posted April 10, 2021 39 minutes ago, EMA said: a tesla is 16', v10 is 16.x, nik and 16x are 17' There is some logic to that. It would however bring up a few questions: - With how much precision? A change in the tire model can easily make a difference of 0.1” in the measurable diameter. - If we stay at whole numbers, an 18% increase in width doesn’t separate the V10 from a Tesla, so how come an increase of just 10% (true width of a H5102 tire in 18x3 size is about 2.75”) to the 18XL makes the S18 or the MSX a 19” wheel? - Was the V8 (16x1.95”) a 15” wheel? 39 minutes ago, EMA said: imho every brand should label with the real diameter, 17' and 19' are real size if you measure it - Isn’t the 20” as well? Especially if you round up... - Is the Sherman a 20” wheel with the off-road tire, but a 19” wheel with the street tire? - How do you find a suitable spare tire when 18”, 19” and 20” wheels have the same size rim? I think classifying the wheels by the actual measurable tire diameter would be a mess even if the manufacturers tried to do everything right. They could’ve gotten it right when simply reading the size from the side of the tire, but didn’t succeed even with that. Quote
EUC Custom Power-Pads Posted April 10, 2021 Posted April 10, 2021 (edited) But my MSP is a 20" wheel without inflated speed anymore..... .... at least with a 2.75-14 knobby motorcycle tire. Edited April 10, 2021 by EUC Custom Power-Pads 1 Quote
EMA Posted April 10, 2021 Posted April 10, 2021 30 minutes ago, mrelwood said: They could’ve gotten it right when simply reading the size from the side of the tire, but didn’t succeed even with that. Quote
mrelwood Posted April 10, 2021 Posted April 10, 2021 2 hours ago, EUC Custom Power-Pads said: But my MSP is a 20" wheel without inflated speed anymore..... .... at least with a 2.75-14 knobby motorcycle tire. So... I’ve been riding a 20” wheel for all these months?? Wow! I thought the V11 was an 18” wheel! 😜 I can very easily tell a 16” wheel from a 18” wheel by the way it handles. But this 20”... Man, feels exactly like an 18”! 😁 3 Quote
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