Paul A Posted March 12, 2022 Share Posted March 12, 2022 The Linear Bearings video mentioned by member FBHB. Thermoplastics do not need lubrication. They are dry running. Cheap, durable, quiet, dirt resistant, corrosion resistant, clean, lightweight, maintenance free. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Freeforester Posted March 12, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted March 12, 2022 It would seem on the face of it that if KS could be persuaded to use the correct type of plastic insert in these friction bearings, they could omit the greasing of the channels, saving them both on manufacturing time and potential for wear related issues in the casings further on down the road, as well as omitting the ‘service each month’ instruction to potential buyers, which is likely to prove to be more of a turn off for more than a turn on? 3 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fbhb Posted March 12, 2022 Share Posted March 12, 2022 8 minutes ago, Paul A said: The Linear Bearings video mentioned by member FBHB. Thermoplastics do not need lubrication. They are dry running. Cheap, durable, quiet, dirt resistant, corrosion resistant, clean, lightweight, maintenance free. Exactly the point I was making regarding the material currently used for the S20 bearing blocks, which we Do Not yet know the composition of/material used, but could be made from these very same high quality Thermoplastics if King Song needs to make changes! 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul A Posted March 12, 2022 Share Posted March 12, 2022 Hollow motor corrosion problem could be eliminated with use of thermoplastics. No need for bearings. Just thermoplastic bushing. Sliders using thermoplastics do not need lubrication/grease as evidenced by this video. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
techyiam Posted March 12, 2022 Share Posted March 12, 2022 (edited) 33 minutes ago, Paul A said: Hollow motor corrosion problem could be eliminated with use of thermoplastics. No need for bearings. Just thermoplastic bushing. Sliders using thermoplastics do not need lubrication/grease as evidenced by this video The type of bearings compared, as shown in the video is of the sliding friction bearing type, as oppose to rolling friction bearings type. The latter bearings type is what is commonly used in cars, motorcycles, bicycles, euc's, and etc. Edited March 12, 2022 by techyiam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
techyiam Posted March 12, 2022 Share Posted March 12, 2022 (edited) 59 minutes ago, mrelwood said: The V11 suspension system is based on the same basic idea, reinforced POM sliding guides sliding on reinforced aluminum. In the two videos that I can find on YouTube, I was not able to find a shot that shows the POM sliding guides. I can only see the metal rails that are bolted to the axle, and the metal slides that the pedals are fastened to. You wouldn't happen to have a picture or video link handy showing the POM guides? Thanks. Edited March 12, 2022 by techyiam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul A Posted March 12, 2022 Share Posted March 12, 2022 https://www.copeplastics.com/material/uhmw/ Ultra High Molecular Weight (UHMW) Polyethylene combines a low coefficient of friction with excellent abrasion resistance to excel in a wide variety of sliding applications. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supercurio Posted March 12, 2022 Share Posted March 12, 2022 1 hour ago, Paul A said: The Linear Bearings video mentioned by member FBHB. Thermoplastics do not need lubrication. They are dry running. Cheap, durable, quiet, dirt resistant, corrosion resistant, clean, lightweight, maintenance free. Super impressed by everything presented here, especially the demo at 1:20 (lead screws) Thanks @mrelwood for mentioning POM, materials I look forward to read more about them, and how they compare with the type that's shown in this video. If some comparison table exist between these, it might be possible to get a sense of how much (if any) the S20 suspension could be improved by changing sliding blocks material. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Brendan "nog3" Halliday Posted March 12, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted March 12, 2022 3 hours ago, supercurio said: Furthermore, they're black! Which indicates that the plastic is mixed with a pigment: not what you want for an ultra low friction material, since the black pigment would affect its properties negatively. A lot of POM/Acetal comes in either black or white by default, like those used on the V11 slides. The color bears no real relevance to how it performs. 3 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supercurio Posted March 12, 2022 Share Posted March 12, 2022 2 hours ago, Paul A said: Wondering if it would be better not to have grease in the tubes. If the plastic is slippery enough, maybe remove the grease. Any dirt and grit that enters the tubes might then just simply fall out of its own accord. If mud enters the tubes, the water will dry out, and the dirt will be scraped out and fall out by gravity. Grease is acting as a binding agent that holds onto grit. I was wondering as well. Is it possible that grease might serve as interface to prevent dirt to reach the area where friction occurs? Sure, road dust and dirt will accumulate there, sticking to the grease. But maybe it could help forming some kind of plug keeping clean where it matters instead of being harmful. A bit like grease in bearings, which can protect them from dirt effectively for a while. (Just thinking out loud) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rehab1 Posted March 12, 2022 Share Posted March 12, 2022 @fbhb thanks for answering the call and providing an excellent comprehensive report surrounding your thoughts on the S20! If monthly (routine) maintenance is required to ensure that the suspension and other components remain smooth and stable… I’m game. A detailed S20 maintenance check list would be a nice addition instead of relying on members to compile the task. Suggestions of proper lubricants, application regions and cleaning methods sound basic but many members would like the manufacturer to provide guidance. I remain optimistic that KS now has a deeper level of understanding on QC issues and don’t wish to return to the period where members had to tear into their 1st/2nd generation S18s to resolve suspension issues. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Curt8892 Posted March 12, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted March 12, 2022 If KS’s engineers are half as smart as the people in this community we should be ok. 👍🏿 3 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldFartRides Posted March 12, 2022 Share Posted March 12, 2022 The engineers are. It’s the bean counters that that make decisions based on costs that usually muck things up. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richardo Posted March 12, 2022 Share Posted March 12, 2022 Ecodrift is a treasure. I didnt pay them enough attention when i was starting with EUCs but their quality of teardown is invaluable. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rollin-on-1 Posted March 12, 2022 Share Posted March 12, 2022 5 hours ago, Paul A said: Wondering if it would be better not to have grease in the tubes. If the plastic is slippery enough, maybe remove the grease. Any dirt and grit that enters the tubes might then just simply fall out of its own accord. If mud enters the tubes, the water will dry out, and the dirt will be scraped out and fall out by gravity. Grease is acting as a binding agent that holds onto grit. I had this thought too. Although to do that, the tolerance would need to be very precise. Since many of these materials expand and contract with temp changes, and the aluminum channels will too, it may be unrealistic to achieve this ideal scenario. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enaon Posted March 12, 2022 Share Posted March 12, 2022 The sliders on the s20 look very nice to me maintenance wise. A washout with silicone every now and then will be enough I think. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rollin-on-1 Posted March 12, 2022 Share Posted March 12, 2022 15 minutes ago, enaon said: The sliders on the s20 look very nice to me maintenance wise. A washout with silicone every now and then will be enough I think. I have white lithium spray...I wonder if that would be a good product to use? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldFartRides Posted March 12, 2022 Share Posted March 12, 2022 (edited) Any type of grease is going to attract grit and make a damn fine abrasive mess IMHO. I’d put my money on a quality “dry” spray lube. The liquid carrier goes away quickly and leaves a slick film. Edited March 12, 2022 by OldFartRides 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enaon Posted March 12, 2022 Share Posted March 12, 2022 (edited) 20 minutes ago, Rollin-on-1 said: I have white lithium spray...I wonder if that would be a good product to use? My experience with the s18 says that silicone is the way. We no not need grease or anything that dust can stick on, silicone is good way to clean off debris/wash the wheel, and also protects all euc parts and lubricates. I use about a can per month (3usd per can) to deep clean the s18, still like new. Edited March 12, 2022 by enaon 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conecones Posted March 12, 2022 Share Posted March 12, 2022 Maybe the real issue here is overthinking it. There is no such thing as low maintenance suspension if it is being ridden off-road. So perhaps anyone looking to own a suspension wheel just needs to budget for a slider replacement every season? Seems like a really cheap part that can also be 3D printed with better material or for better fit (as the aluminum carrier wears down). Certainly seems like a bargain compared to servicing of MTB shocks which calls for an oil change after as little as every 30 hours 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Rawnei Posted March 12, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted March 12, 2022 19 minutes ago, conecones said: Maybe the real issue here is overthinking it. There is no such thing as low maintenance suspension if it is being ridden off-road. So perhaps anyone looking to own a suspension wheel just needs to budget for a slider replacement every season? Seems like a really cheap part that can also be 3D printed with better material or for better fit (as the aluminum carrier wears down). Certainly seems like a bargain compared to servicing of MTB shocks which calls for an oil change after as little as every 30 hours I think the issue is more the difficulty of said maintenance, if having to take the wheel apart very frequently it's going to end up being neglected or just very annoying. 2 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freeforester Posted March 12, 2022 Share Posted March 12, 2022 Slick, dry stuff: 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Brahan Seer Posted March 12, 2022 Share Posted March 12, 2022 1 hour ago, Rollin-on-1 said: I have white lithium spray...I wonder if that would be a good product to use? Reading on MTB sites they don't recommend lithium in lubricants in mountain bike shocks because it attacks the seals. So likely will depend on the application and how vulnerable the materials are near by. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tawpie Posted March 12, 2022 Share Posted March 12, 2022 Depending on what the plastic material is and your tolerance for clanking noises, it might work to run it dry, or maybe use stanchion lube that's meant for 'not attracting grit'. I see a retrofit kit coming... remember the 3D printed bearing covers? There is aftermarket money to be made—it's an opportunity! Wipers, like you use on a common stanchion but internal to the channel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrelwood Posted March 12, 2022 Share Posted March 12, 2022 6 hours ago, techyiam said: You wouldn't happen to have a picture or video link handy showing the POM guides? Thanks. 5 hours ago, supercurio said: If some comparison table exist between these, it might be possible to get a sense of how much (if any) the S20 suspension could be improved by changing sliding blocks material. Unfortunately, IIRC I wasn’t able to find a friction coeff chart between PTFE, UHMWPE, POM, Nylon66, Delrin, Ultex, etc. I think I started making my own chart as well, but didn’t get far with that one either. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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