Kingsong S20/S22 (Confirmed)

[fryman]

2 minutes ago, Paul A said:

Difficult to determine what KS is doing at the 30sec mark.

Adam's finger was covered with a black colour soot/grease.

The brush and splash mark on the hand held tub seems to be a cream coloured substance.

The plastic / rubber sliders and aluminum casing would change the the color of the grease.

[Richardo]

That video of the rubber slide-channel-thing is remarkable. Wonder if that will be changed for the production release.

[Paul A]

https://petroleumservicecompany.com/blog/grease-color-affect-lubrication/

If your grease undergoes color change while in service, it could be an indication that it has reached or is almost at its condemning limit.

 

Adam has only had the wheel for a short time though.

[Paul A]

Plastic pistons.

[fryman]

6 minutes ago, Paul A said:

https://petroleumservicecompany.com/blog/grease-color-affect-lubrication/

If your grease undergoes color change while in service, it could be an indication that it has reached or is almost at its condemning limit.

 

Adam has only had the wheel for a short time though.

I know that when I have handled a piece of aluminum that has had been sealed or painted, I have black on my hands.

[Tawpie]

37 minutes ago, Paul A said:

IP54 rating presumably keeps any grit/dirt out of the slider tubes.

I think IP54 means that dust that does get in won't impair operation. And clearly the grit that gets in does impair operation of the suspension. But the IP rating hasn't been claimed by KS and I doubt they'll ever submit it for testing.

[Paradox]

22 minutes ago, Paul A said:

Difficult to determine what KS is doing at the 30sec mark.

Looks like greasing the slides to me.

[Paul A]

It would make sense that it would be grease.

[Paradox]

25 minutes ago, Paul A said:

It would make sense that it would be grease.

I do wonder if the grease will be a sand and dirt magnet?

[Paul A]

MTB riders might know more about sand and dirt magnet.

[jrhz06]

24 minutes ago, Paradox said:

I do wonder if the grease will be a sand and dirt magnet?

I’m planning on cleaning the grease off and using TriFlow. Works great on S18.

[Rehab1]

2 hours ago, supercurio said:

I haven't canceled my pre-order yet.

My pre-order is intact as well. I just hate being a Guinea pig. 

 

2 hours ago, supercurio said:

I wonder what @fbhb thinks about that!

Yes I would like to hear his thoughts. 

[Rehab1]

1 hour ago, Paradox said:

Looks like greasing the slides to me.

A closer look. 

 

Edited March 12, 2022 by Rehab1

[Forwardnbak]

My deposit is still on. I’ll be a pig riding an eagle on this one. 
 

some kind of decent warranty would help confidence. Cheap parts, official tear down manuals. 
 

A Kingsong clarity statement about production improvements would be welcome about now. 

[Paul A]

Kevin thinks the slider is plastic.

Doesn't appear that any visible grease rubbed off onto his thumb.

 

 

[buffs]

8 minutes ago, Forwardnbak said:

A Kingsong clarity statement about production improvements would be welcome about now. 

it makes me realize how fortunate we were to have a Kingsong rep that was active in the forums for previous wheels. a lot of the S20 speculation and concerns could easily be addressed. those were the days...

[OldFartRides]

The sharks are bantering tonight.

[Paul A]

sharks?

 

[fbhb]

6 hours ago, Rehab1 said:

8 hours ago, supercurio said:

I haven't canceled my pre-order yet.

My pre-order is intact as well. I just hate being a Guinea pig. 

 

8 hours ago, supercurio said:

I wonder what @fbhb thinks about that!

 

6 hours ago, Rehab1 said:

Yes I would like to hear his thoughts. 

 

Thank you @supercurio and @Rehab1 for asking my opinion on the suspension decisions King Song has made with the S20, I feel honoured that you both asked for my thoughts.

As the 2 of you know and many others may have also seen the lengthy topic I made on my first batch S18 suspension issues, so comparisons of the differences King Song has made from my point of view are as follows:

With the huge amount of feedback/complaints King Song received regarding the S18's poor assembly and in some cases component choices from this very forum alone, plus many other sources, it was inevitable that they needed to redesign the way that some of the components were constructed.

There were obvious areas where the S18 linkage system was successful, once the binding/clearance/poor assembly had been addressed and we can see this carried over with the S20. However, the linkage arms are obviously more substantial here to accommodate the much heavier coil sprung shock and hopefully any bearings fitted to the pivot points need to be fitted correctly/have spacers for clearance/contact with ONLY the inner races where necessary (this is not really clear from what has been made available online so far)

Manufacturing tolerances need to be closer than was evident in the S18, to enable correct alignment and smooth travel without any binding/stiction. To this end, IMO King Song cleverly opted to build the S20 with 2 aluminium extrusions that perform many tasks, whilst adding rigidity to the Fully assembled wheel.

The extrusions are in themselves a very strong structure made stronger when Fully bolted together, whilst being quite light considering All the jobs they have to perform:

1. It offers a strong structure that bolts the 2 boxes together accurately to help with alignment

2. The structure accommodates both battery packs and it must be stated once again that they ARE securely sealed top and bottom to prevent moisture intrusion (but have special labels that react to moisture should anything somehow get past the 2 seals)

3. The structure houses the trolley handle (Yes it's in a position that has been complained about, but the design DOES not allow for any other location)

4. The structure Also acts as an added heat sink that the passively cooled motherboard housing is bolted to with a thermal pad 

5. The pedal hangers bolt directly to the structure, again this should be an accurate way of ensuring both pedals are in line with each other compared to the traditional method of fixture

6. The upper suspension linkage point should Also be more accurately aligned in this type of structure

7. Added to the tasks already mentioned, ancillary items such as the front lights (helps with cooling the 8 LED's), side pads etc. also attach to this main aluminium structure

8. However given everything mentioned above, the major task the aluminium structure has to do is house the sliding mechanism for the suspension and do so in a smooth controlled manner, whilst maintaining rigidity.

IMHO, King Song has built the sliding mechanism to be structurally strong evidenced by the spider shaped/triangulated motor mount frames, whilst also keeping the weight down.

To my eye and from an engineering point of view, the 4 screw on bearing blocks that slide within the aluminium rails Must/Will be made of a "low friction" material and definitely Not rubber (this is confirmed elsewhere in previous strip downs by real techs). There are 4 rubber bumpers attached at the end that we know are stops/cushions for the suspension travel at it's extreme. 

In the King Song production video, there was the clip of a worker brushing what we presume is lubricant of some sort into the slider channels and it is my belief that the rubber stops/cushions have the diagonal grooves to help hold some of this lubricant, whilst REDUCING any stiction from the fact they are made from rubber. The grooves Also add the ability for the stops/cushions to compress (acting like a rubber spring of sorts) without expanding out and binding. I would expect the width/thickness of these rubber elements to be slightly smaller than the bearing blocks for clearance reasons.

The 4 bearing blocks, depending on the material being used but more importantly the fit within the rails (needs to be accurate and snug, but not too tight so that it will act as its own wiper), should provide a smooth reliable bearing action as long as the rails are kept reasonably clean and lubricated if the material used requires it (this looks to be the case from teardown video evidence, but variable in it's application from wheel to wheel).

The 4 bearing blocks were shown in the Ekolka video to be easily removed by gently tapping with a soft mallet, once the securing screw is removed, so should be simple to replace if necessary. There are many options for "low friction" materials, but we Do Not know exactly what King Song have used at this stage, which may be adequate and actually specced correctly.

With regard to dirt and dust entering the slider slot, I see No way around this in the current design as there just HAS to be a slot for the mechanism to slide the motor mount frames through the full 130mm suspension travel, at All of the different ride heights available via the ride height adjustment. The ONLY saving grace here is that I would expect that the slot is ONLY as wide as it needs to be for clearance for the sliding assembly and any heavy dirt would need to spray/splash in around a 90degree corner to reach the rails/bearings.

As mentioned somewhere previously, for this reason King Song has stated that the mechanism needs to be kept as clean as is possible and maintained once a month.

In an ideal world, there are Also many options available in the form of Linear Bearings, some are even maintenance FREE, that King Song could have incorporated into it's design but at a much higher cost (we All know that the cheapest option always wins out, even though we would gladly absorb the added cost for a quality upgrade) and possibly too bulky for the space available within the aluminium extrusion.

This, unfortunately would Also add the need for assembly line accuracy to install the bearing assemblies without causing the inevitable risk of misalignment.

Added to that, I believe that they were also trying to reduce the complexity of the myriad alignment/binding issues that the S18 was encumbered with, simplify strip downs, along with making the assembly procedure a process that can be carried out by their workers on the line that understandably will Not have a thorough engineering knowledge.

So to conclude as this part of the discussion was sparked by Adam getting sand into the S20 before carrying out his teardown, I do appreciate that he made the video, although his knowledge and ability is sometimes incorrect evidenced by needing someone to help him work on the S20 and the many comments to correct him that Ulf made on the YouTube video.

Personally, I have ONLY ever put any trust in the teardowns carried out by Ecodrift and the recommendations/comments that they make and will do so again when they finally put one out for the S20.

I still see huge potential in the S20, especially given that we are still at pre-production and King Song does appear to be listening and responding to the feedback from All the pre-production reports.

Will Everything on Everyone's Wishlist be met, it's unlikely but we can All live in hope as most of the issues will hopefully be addressed and incremental changes will definitely happen even after the First production S20's roll off the production line - That's just the way it works!

 

 

Edited March 12, 2022 by fbhb

[supercurio]

9 hours ago, Paul A said:

Kevin thinks the slider is plastic.

Doesn't appear that any visible grease rubbed off onto his thumb.

Thanks for bringing this back up. I'm guessing that when we saw that one collectively it seemed fine because all new and still fairly clean.

Looking at these blocks again, when Kevin taps them they look and sound like hard plastic with a slight texture on then. Not at all like the typical low friction plastics like PTFE or the other ones @Paul A highlighted in the thread.

Furthermore, they're black! Which indicates that the plastic is mixed with a pigment: not what you want for an ultra low friction material, since the black pigment would affect its properties negatively.

So already, in case Kingsong is not planning that themselves, it's an opportunity for a 3rd party upgrade.
But I'd like to get to Kingsong and ask them to use a better material here. From what we can see, this black hard plastic probably is not the best, both on paper and in its early result - as demonstrated with Adam's video after going through his "accelerated aging" process.

 

Thank you @fbhb for the in depth solution overview 🙏

Edited March 12, 2022 by supercurio

[Rawnei]

So, like probably many others I was thinking if Master would be a better choice, I even asked my reseller if it's possible to switch my pre-order if I decided to.

But then I went and re-read the ecodrift teardown of the Hero (https://ecodrift-ru.translate.goog/2021/12/26/begode-hero-ht-razbiraem/?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=sv&_x_tr_pto=wapp) with associated video.

Keep in mind this is the same type of suspension system that all current Begode suspension wheels uses.

So many red flags, questionable design choices and QC issues, keep in mind this is a brand new wheel that already has rust on the suspension rods and signs of pinch/wear on cables, waterproofing on the top of the wheel is questionable to say the least, two points of obvious ingress in both display and the beeper.

Just changing the tire looks like a nightmare, no easy way to get the motor off, more work than a V11 (ecodrift own words).

Some may say "well that's the Hero" but I don't think these things will be improved on the Master unfortunately I think it will be the same.

So really wanting a good suspension wheel but not wanting to do a lot of maintenance the S20 still looks like the better choice for me personally and I will probably stick with it.

Edited March 12, 2022 by Rawnei

[Paul A]

Wondering if it would be better not to have grease in the tubes.

If the plastic is slippery enough, maybe remove the grease.

Any dirt and grit that enters the tubes might then just simply fall out of its own accord.  

If mud enters the tubes, the water will dry out, and the dirt will be scraped out and fall out by gravity.

Grease is acting as a binding agent that holds onto grit.

[fbhb]

38 minutes ago, Rawnei said:

So, like probably many others I was thinking if Master would be a better choice

 

38 minutes ago, Rawnei said:

But then I went and re-read the ecodrift teardown of the Hero (https://ecodrift-ru.translate.goog/2021/12/26/begode-hero-ht-razbiraem/?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=sv&_x_tr_pto=wapp) with associated video.

Keep in mind this is the same type of suspension system that all current Begode suspension wheels uses.

 

38 minutes ago, Rawnei said:

Just changing the tire looks like a nightmare, no easy way to get the motor off, more work than a V11 (ecodrift own words).

Some may say "well that's the Hero" but I don't think these things will be improved on the Master unfortunately I think it will be the same.

Your fears are most likely warranted and Also don't forget that, unlike King Song's policy, Begode/GotWay have Never offered pre-production wheels for assessment before Full production.

They always rely on their own in house testing, then just very quickly release their New wheels to the community to deal with/put up with any initial issues that come up.

Granted, their New wheel may hit the market quicker, but I know which companies policy I prefer from a build quality/QC/listening to feedback to make changes perspective!

Edited March 12, 2022 by fbhb

[Forwardnbak]

I’m appreciating all the comments and videos popping up, great to see so much info for me to learn.
 

Would still love Kingsong to pull this rabbit out of the hat. Address all concerns, smash the release with all positives.

 

Then I’m sure they would bump the price up $500 on further orders. 
 

[mrelwood]

 

9 hours ago, supercurio said:

Sliding blocks

I would imagine being a low-friction PTFE or similar thermoplastic.

My educated guess says POM. Quite a bit higher in friction than PTFE, but much more durable as well, and hence a material that’s used a lot for sliding bearings/bushings.

UHMWPE is a great substance, sort of from between the two in friction, but it’s more rare to be seen as a material for cheaper products. Only when the structure absolutely requires lower friction or higher durability.

I won’t flame Adam about the rubber comment though, as it looks like the rubber parts could have pinched or worn, and maybe there are some residual rubber crumbles on top of the plastic piece.

 

 Either way, I think the S20 suspension’s sliding mechanism as a design is technically a very obvious downgrade from the S18 one. Possibly easier to get to work decently on a mass produced item, but the rumored monthly maintenance requirement is just laughable. They know very well that not a single rider can manage such a tight maintenance schedule for more than a few months, so they can practically wash their hands from all suspension related warranty queries if they want.

 What kind of a vehicle requires monthly servicing anyway??

 

9 hours ago, supercurio said:

Will this friction act like damping we want anyway, be negligible compared to rider weight, or make the suspension unnecessarily hard or sticky? I can't tell.

I believe I can tell. The V11 suspension system is based on the same basic idea, reinforced POM sliding guides sliding on reinforced aluminum.

1) Yes, it can function as damping and in that sense do some good, but on the S20 the amount of said friction is wildly uncontrollable. So no, not usable for damping without stability.

2) If you’re standing on the wheel, and otherwise being stiff as a brick but only moving one of your arms, a sensitive suspension like a new V11 will already react. The weight that moved was maybe 4% of your body weight, and even bolted down from the heavy end. This is the weight one should compare to. How many flailing hands would Adam’s unit have required for the suspension to move? Many more I’m sure.

3) Yes. A little bit of added friction wouldn’t matter much, but when the system creates a friction many times larger than what it’s supposed to, it simply doesn’t work at all like it’s supposed to anymore. And that makes the suspension uncomfortable, or even incapable of doing it’s job. Remember how Wrong Way was bouncing up and down in his off-road hill climb test? That is not a sign of a well working suspension.