Kingsong S20/S22 (Confirmed)

[Marc Roberts]

They're surely going to need to sell refurb kits or something for that suspension design, can't see it lasting too long...

[Marc Roberts]

Might change my S20 preorder to a V12 HT. Aaaaargh decisions. Just really not digging the low end power and this suspension design looks shonky.

[Miko.cz]

3 minutes ago, Marc Roberts said:

Might change my S20 preorder to a V12 HT. Aaaaargh decisions. Just really not digging the low end power and this suspension design looks shonky.

I will not change my pre-order now, discount on quick pre-order, KS is communicating with sellers and what I see (thanks to all) is OK, test ride was nice and demo pieces are still running. Im so happy the wheel is under heavy and open testings by a lot of people and we have a lot of resources to make our own decision.

[supercurio]

13 hours ago, Freeforester said:

Adam’s observations:

Ooooooff, this was a great video, and I didn't like much of what I've seen here.

Main concerns

Suspension channels
I imagined the suspension being made of some kind of chunky PTFE plastic blocks sliding in sealed channels.
Instead, the 4 blocks are rubber: therefore high friction, and sliding only thanks to some kind of grease/lubricant. Inside channels which are fully open on the inside next to where the tire rotates.

WTF! The suspension will get full of sand, grit, salt in no time.
Why are the channels simply open to the dirtiest part of the wheel? They'll get packed full of crap in no time. Is there any chance that this can work without requiring an insane amount of maintenance? Will grease actually stay there against the elements, or be replaced by sand rubbing against the aluminum.

I'm trying to see in the video if there's a chance it could be salvaged by designing 3D printed TPU seals for the whole assembly. I can't think of a way for now. Non-starter for me.
So now we know why the suspension travel is so noisy: https://youtu.be/Ma8ajaIHMnE?t=906

That'll be full of dirt always, no way around it: https://flic.kr/p/2n853eC

The main redeeming quality of these rubber sliders I can think of is making the wheel less prone to damage, bending metallic parts when it falls since the rubber blocks will bring some give, and that's kind of genius compared to the Abrams which gets all bent out of shape after a fall.

Suspension triangle
Play in most of the assembly and loose tolerances: Is that an issue, or a requirement instead?
Since the suspension is sliding over rubber blocks, the whole system cannot remain fully aligned during its travel, when the rider has more weight on one pedal than other or in falls / crashes.

Looking forward to read what you guys with S18 experience think.

Battery packs
I also imaged that these transparent packs were somehow actually sealed, but it's not even closed at all.
I'm concerned this has not been addressed like other points in Kingsong's communication.
For now, it looks like water ingress is possible from the charge ports, power button (both to be confirmed) and motor wires (confirmed)

What could possibly go wrong?

Waterproofing
Screws on the top cover, at the bottom of a pit directly screwing on top of the motherboard: problematic. It means this red piece is absolutely required for water resistance. These pits should be covered by tape to prevent water to sip in there.

 

Small positive points

• good to see that the charge ports & power button are on a small separate board
• bearing seals look good so far

 

Tying to see why I should keep the pre-order open.. Not sure besides... I don't know, having one for app development and reselling it unused.

Edited March 11, 2022 by supercurio

[Miko.cz]

Btw. just small side note to the battery capacity and test rides we see:
M50 datasheet page 8/13 mention 20% less capacity when 0°C compared to 25°C (full capacity) = something normal. Remember KS20 is a big heatsink compared to others (and moving, but also generate some its own temp).

[Blunzn]

another range test.

full charge = 97% 
102kg 24°C
he wanted to do a 25/30 kmh test but he was "a lot faster most of the time"  (his response: "35-45 80% of the time")

he started with the wheel still locked and beeping
405m elevation with some 'hill climbing'

massive headwinds over 15-20km in the 2nd half of the ride
no seated riding

battery levels:
10km 88%
20km 83%
30km 71%
40km 63%
50km 51% rain and wind starts
60km 41%
70km 34%
77km 4% and tiltback

 

Edited March 11, 2022 by Blunzn

[rolis]

21 minutes ago, supercurio said:

Suspension channels
I imagined the suspension being made of some kind of chunky PTFE plastic blocks sliding in sealed channels.
Instead, the 4 blocks are rubber: therefore high friction, and sliding only thanks to some kind of grease/lubricant. Inside channels which are fully open on the inside next to where the tire rotates.

WTF! The suspension will get full of sand, grit, salt in no time.
Why are the channels simply open to the dirtiest part of the wheel? They'll get packed full of crap in no time. Is there any chance that this can work without requiring an insane amount of maintenance? Will grease actually stay there against the elements, or be replaced by sand rubbing against the aluminum.

This worries me the most and that might make me cancel another preorder after the v12 (glad I missed that timebomb).

I can live with the range. It was never supposed to be a long distance wheel like the sherman, Ex.n, etc..

The power output worries me, but it still think that KS will tweak the firmware to get as close to the Begode RST as possible.

This wheel is built around the  suspension, which is its biggest selling point in my opinion. And such a fundamental “mistake” (maybe not the right word) I have no idea how to find a quick fix that would not postpone the production much further, which they really dont plan to do. (From the s20 telegram group: “Latest rumor is 2 wks delay to upgrade the issues”)

In comparison, this is how the S18 sliders look

[supercurio]

14 minutes ago, rolis said:

This worries me the most and that might make me cancel another preorder after the v12 (glad I missed that timebomb).

This wheel is built around the  suspension, which is its biggest selling point in my opinion. And such a fundamental “mistake” (maybe not the right word) I have no idea how to find a quick fix that would not postpone the production much further, which they really dont plan to do. (From the s20 telegram group: “Latest rumor is 2 wks delay to upgrade the issues”)

In comparison, this is how the S18 sliders look

Yes that's more like a proven design.

I planned the S20 as next daily driver, and keeping the Sherman for long range.
So the idea was to ride it in all conditions - all seasons, including winter with salt everywhere and gravel on the bike lanes, thrown around by the tire.
Now: how frequent a maintenance would be required to keep its suspension running smoothly?

I want wheels to be a vehicles and as hobby to be mostly riding (and community)
With this new information (really thankful to Adam), the S20 looks more like an expensive time sink... not a particularly convincing proposition.

Edited March 11, 2022 by supercurio

[Rawnei]

I have to agree, also worried about those suspension sliders, looks easy for dirt to accumulate there, that demo wheel is like a month old? Already dirty and some wear on those parts and I don't think it's enough just to put some grease have to take it apart, clean it, re-grease it, quite frequently, so unless they change this part of the design it's not good for longevity.

[Curt8892]

1 hour ago, rolis said:

This worries me the most and that might make me cancel another preorder after the v12 (glad I missed that timebomb).

I can live with the range. It was never supposed to be a long distance wheel like the sherman, Ex.n, etc..

The power output worries me, but it still think that KS will tweak the firmware to get as close to the Begode RST as possible.

This wheel is built around the  suspension, which is its biggest selling point in my opinion. And such a fundamental “mistake” (maybe not the right word) I have no idea how to find a quick fix that would not postpone the production much further, which they really dont plan to do. (From the s20 telegram group: “Latest rumor is 2 wks delay to upgrade the issues”)

In comparison, this is how the S18 sliders look

I have a S18 and there is no way you can have a quick tire removal with this system. 
 

I think KS changed the design of the S20 in the attempt to add more features like quick tire removal and the option to run the wheel at a low or high profile (street or trail). 
 

I admire the attempt and I will still keep my order as I am not an engineer and do not know if this design will work. I do not mind being a early adopter for this design. If KS are lucky they may have a winning design. 
 

After buying my S18 I would watch so many people complaining about the suspension and they would pull the whole thing apart and change all the parts with high end parts. I did not do that, I just road the shit out of it and it worked great for what I could expect for a first gen suspension wheel. 
 

1st, 2nd, 3rd…….100th will not be perfect. If you are looking for the perfect wheel then you will need to make it yourself because perfection is a personal level of expectation. 
 

I am excited to see if this thing works or falls apart after a couple of months of riding. 
 

Gotway/Begode rider have been doing this with their poor build quality from the beginning and now you see the results with great performance wheels. 

[OldFartRides]

+ 1…
With the s18, sliders are steel on steel. I used spray silicone on them so as to not attract the grit.
Dont know what those s20 slider bushings are exactly, but IMHO, anything gooey is no goo…d. 
I knew going in that the s18 had all these same sorts of “quality” issues. 
I rode it for a season, tore it down, fixed the suspension alignment issues did an over all

safety check and I’m ready for the coming season. Having cleaned the sliders inside and out, I switched to Tri-Flow.

 The wheel is adequate for me. I also avoid riding in mud.

Just know going in you will have to deal with some shoddy manufacturing.

Now $3k + for this amalgamation requires a significant gut check for you first adopters as I’m sure you are aware.

Some folks will work on it first. Some will ride, then work on it. Some will ride it for awhile and sell it used.

Your results may vary.

 

 

 

[Paul A]

Interesting comment on Adam's tear down video.

 

From

Ulf Scheidsteger

ex King Song, who has extensive knowledge.

 

I really dont get it anymore…. From serious fact videos back to “opinions/assumption” videos (on a test-sample/predproduction unit)

Those 3/6 bolts that you change “that make the suspension better” are mostly for setting the body(and pedal height) for the rider and are another chance to higher/lower the pedals for the rider AND adjust body shell height.

Demanding shrink wraps when the battery is in a sealed aluminium compartment is also some kind of questionable, like demanding shrink wrap in a IM plastik sealed case. The battery btw even has a “water intrusion” detection, to see if the wheel was dumped for warranty cases, chnaging color on one of the stickers.

And btw the 60Amp fuses protect the BMS and MB from oversurges of Amps.

And as THESE kind of fuses are directly reacting (instead of normal fuses used for example in GW/Veteran) they are Not to high.

They react on peak surge, not constant surge. Its pretty understandable that you have suspensions problems in general when such a light weight guy as you screws the feather down nearly to the end.

It should be on the top of the screw ring, as a 750lbs spring is more for 90/100kg riders…. And just a word for the battery differencies in voltage.

As it wasnt worth for you to adjust the charger, probably no balancing is happening at all in the moment.

But even then…..having them a difference of 0,013 (dont remember exact number) is totally fine…even for a unbalanced pack.

And hammering on the “shitanium” screws…..when allready KS promised to change them in mass production….remembers me of mexican loughing on the Block on the S18 “review”. will be interesting if we get a new video when its not a Sample/preproduction unit anymore….

Sorry, just disappointed…..

[Paul A]

Perhaps for the sliders, use UHMW/UHMWPE plastics.

 

UHMW (ultra high molecular weight polyethylene) is an extremely tough, abrasion-resistant, low-cost plastic.

UHMW has an extremely low friction coefficient. It is comparable to PTFE, which also slides well. UHMW has an excellent shock resistance.

Because of its high molecular weight, UHMW is resistant to moisture.

UHMWPE fibres has an incredibly high tensile strength compared to many other thermoplastics, and this also means that the material is much stronger than steel in the fibre direction.

FDA compliant plastic with low friction. Uses include wear strips, chute liners, star wheels, fabricated parts.

This plastic is tough and dense and it has extremely long molecular chains which all align in the same direction making UHMWPE 15 times more resistant to abrasion than carbon steel and give the material the highest impact strength of any thermoplastic made today.

UHMWPE to fabricate chutes and liners for the mining industry where extreme abrasion resistance is important.

• Extreme wear resistance
• Long life span in harsh conditions
• Light weight
• Impact resistance

 

UHMW Polyethylene Bush

UHMW Polyethylene bushings are an upgrade to the stock ball bearings.

This ultra-slick material provides for long-lasting, low friction operation which is particularly helpful in heavy payload situations and extended mileage applications.

A higher speed / low maintenance bushing option to replace bearing cassettes.

Simply slide the bushing through the center of the wheel hub and replace the plastic retainer rings on both sides of the wheel.

Then install the bolts and nuts and your wheel is ready for work.

 

 

 

 

[fryman]

Lol, ..Lets not overreact.  The suspension is not perfect.   But what we don't know is; what material the sliders are made of and the distance the sliders actually travel.  These two items will have an impact on the longevity of the suspension.

[rolis]

21 minutes ago, fryman said:

Lol, ..Lets not overreact.  The suspension is not perfect.   But what we don't know is; what material the sliders are made of and the distance the sliders actually travel.  These two items will have an impact on the longevity of the suspension.

The sliders travel the distance of the suspension. Which is as we know 130mm vertically

edit: plus we know that the sliders are some kind of rubber.

Edited March 11, 2022 by rolis

[Whalesmash]

3 minutes ago, rolis said:

The sliders travel the distance of the suspension. Which is as we know 130mm vertically

That might not be accurate. Due to the way the linkages work, it is possible to extra more effective travel distance from the sliders despite only having a certain amount of shock travel. It's also possible to have less, but it really depends on the ratio of linkage lengths/lever arms. Regardless of what the travel distance is and what the material is, what we can say is that the movement is terribly gritty in that wrongway video, and the wear level doesn't look good at all.

[Rollin-on-1]

12 minutes ago, Whalesmash said:

That might not be accurate. Due to the way the linkages work, it is possible to extra more effective travel distance from the sliders despite only having a certain amount of shock travel. It's also possible to have less, but it really depends on the ratio of linkage lengths/lever arms. Regardless of what the travel distance is and what the material is, what we can say is that the movement is terribly gritty in that wrongway video, and the wear level doesn't look good at all.

The shock itself has 75mm of travel, the linkages yield 130mm of travel for the wheel, so yes these sliders will see the full 130mm.

[Miko.cz]

4 hours ago, Blunzn said:

another range test.

Im a bit sad that a lot of testers like talking, selfie recording, drone fly by etc. Thats very nice and useful, but Im also missing hard data such as EUC World record of ride from their long rides , exception was Seba (of course ) and just one(?) more else.

[Curt8892]

6 minutes ago, rolis said:

The sliders travel the distance of the suspension. Which is as we know 130mm vertically

That is top to bottom. How often does it travel that distance. 
 

Maybe the S18 was over built and using a minimalist approach may work in the favor of a suspension wheel. 
 

The amount of weight may not need as much as we think we need, look at the V11 and EX they both just had two piston (as far as I can recall). 
 

The openness of the rails will allow easy access for cleaning/lubricating and repairs. 

[Tawpie]

There was a reference somewhere early on to KS recommending monthly service of the suspension, including clean and grease, and it appears this is an item we shouldn't totally ignore. Kind of like the advice not to ride your horse hard and put it away wet, it's going to need some care.

Thinking about the loose tolerance in the slider channels and the use of composite... absolutely it would have been fun to see tight tolerance sealed linear bearings in there but I'm not sure they would have held up to abuse better than a sloppy plastic guide in an extruded channel. The advantage of loose tolerances and composite parts that I can see, assuming that wear of the sliding surfaces is going to happen, is inexpensive replacement parts (thermoformed, not machined and then assembled). My thoughts go to my German luxury car and it needing a PCV valve. On every other car I've owned, this part costs under 20USD, even when purchased from the stealer (my name for a brand-authorized auto dealer). For the highly engineered uber comfy fun to drive car, this is a 450USD part, with 30 minutes of shop time labor to install.

Anyway, it could be a good thing not to have precision engineered parts everywhere you can possibly put them. But who knows, it might be a nightmare too… early batch gamble, right?

Edited March 11, 2022 by Tawpie

[Tawpie]

7 minutes ago, Miko.cz said:

Im a bit sad that a lot of testers like talking, selfie recording, drone fly by etc. Thats very nice and useful, but Im also missing hard data such as EUC World record of ride from their long rides , exception was Seba (of course ) and just one(?) more else.

I think RevRides, SpeedyFeet and Jimmy Chang posted their EUCWorld tours.

[Paul A]

UHMW as a piston rod and/or tube?

 

[Whalesmash]

30 minutes ago, Rollin-on-1 said:

The shock itself has 75mm of travel, the linkages yield 130mm of travel for the wheel, so yes these sliders will see the full 130mm.

Thanks for the correction. I haven't looked into too much of the exact shock specs so I wasn't sure. 

[Rawnei]

16 minutes ago, Curt8892 said:

The openness of the rails will allow easy access for cleaning/lubricating and repairs. 

I don't see it, seems you still need to remove the wheel to get any decent access in there.

[Rollin-on-1]

2 minutes ago, Whalesmash said:

Thanks for the correction. I haven't looked into too much of the exact shock specs so I wasn't sure. 

I should caveat my comment by stating that most compression events won't use the full 130mm - only the big drops that bottom out the shock will see the full 130mm.  So you were partially correct.