Kingsong S20/S22 (Confirmed)

[Paul A]

Why should an NYC rider put the life of a child on the line, to win an Alley Cat Race?

Because it is someone else's life?

Because it is not his own life?

 

Concerns for own life......no concerns for the life of others.....

 

 

 

[techyiam]

8 minutes ago, evX_Mick said:

again I’ve yet to see anyone here convince me of why i should put my life on the line for you, especially after this thread. At this point i seriously don’t understand the problem you have with the video… again, a feee video you didn’t have to pay for to see…

I don't believe anyone would think you reviewers have signed up to be test pilots who would risk their life and limbs. In fact, there were cautionary comments from some of his viewers who thought it was extremely high risk for Kuji to do the Michael Jackson on his acceleration tests. 

Jack ex-King Song said in his latest S20 review video (13:23) that he takes it easy for the first 3 meters. He blames it on the mosfets. But he got that explanation from Kingsong? (he actually didn't say Kingsong, he said "it was explained to him". He used to be the marketing director for KingSong, and he just did a promotional scooter video for Kingsong. So it is not a stretch to assume that he implied Kingsong.) The point here is that no one I know of blamed him for taking it easy for the first 3 meters.

Another example is SpeedyFeet who said he felt good cruising at 65 kph on the S20, but he explained that he didn't go faster because he wanted to be on the safe side. Kingsong have not made it clear whether the 70 kph is max speed or a top speed with headroom. He didn't even have to go 65 kph. Again, I haven't heard of anyone blaming him for not going faster.

Top speeds are getting higher and higher. Inmotion even went as far as giving a 90 kph top speed for their future product V13. I can't fathom why anyone would go anywhere near the cutout point, wherever that is, especially for reviewers. 

For example, on the V12, the standard setting for max speed is 60 kph. To go past that without tilt back, one needs to go in some fancier mode, and set it higher. To me, reviewers shouldn't go past 60 kph, since that is really the designed top speed. I surmise anything over is for headroom or marketing purposes. If reviewers did this, my guess is that fewer riders will ger hurt. For those who want to explore the bleeding edge, they do so at their own risk.

 

 

 

[Flying W]

I get the feeling that people are really trying to decide on a preorder or not much more than before because we all know production and shipping delays could mean a long long wait for non pre order supply to be around. 

This may be clouding the whole "watch YouTube reviews for entertainment and info" and is turning this into something it very much is not. 

I don't think anyone is getting rich off YouTube in the euc space, maybe a small handful can eek out a living but I'd say most of the content is costing the creator money, especially if factor in the time and what that person is worth for that time spent. It's a labor of love from those passionate about the hobby who have the skill to film and edit for all of us to enjoy.

To get any of the new wheel any time soon is going to take a leap of faith right now with all the supply issues. I for one will be sitting on the sidelines until these new designs are proven, I still enjoy the 3 wheels I have and don't want to end up with something I can't fully trust. 

I will continue to watch all my fav YouTubers for entertainment and info....while being a little sad that the supply is so bad right now. 

[Tawpie]

Wait. I can't safely MJ lean it? Or ignore the beeps? What a POS.

Again I say. Cancel those pre-orders, I still want to move up in the line.

[Mango]

Evx addresses the S20 cutouts and this forum’s shenanigans.

Edited March 10, 2022 by Mango

[Rawnei]

I think there are reasonable questions being asked by people interested in the wheel and trying to inform themselves and I don't see how that is causing grief for influences asking completely legitimate questions, if you make videos and/or statements you have to expect that people might have questions and I don't see the big deal.

I agree with what was already said here by @supercurio that I only know of a single case of rumored cut-out which was Kuji on a pre-pre-production wheel, as already been said the it was verified that the France incident was a overlean past the beeps.

 

3 hours ago, Mango said:

Evx addresses the S20 cutouts and this forum’s shenanigans.

So to sum it up, this forum is bad and we are all sharks because we ask too many questions.

[Eucner]

1 hour ago, Rawnei said:

So to sum it up, this forum is bad and we are all sharks because we ask too many questions.

I found a huge discrepancy between questions asked here and @evX_Mick comments on the video.

[Marc Roberts]

9 hours ago, evX_Mick said:

Also what do you mean by “we just want to know the facts”? Where have facts been withheld? Kuji and French guy cut out right before I got my s20. So as a father of 3 I said, not doing accel test, not worth it. 
 

where have i misunderstood what your issue is?

My understanding is the Kuji's cutout was on an older prototype and that the exact cause of the French guy's cutout is in dispute.

It's not that you didn't want to do the accel test, totally with you on that, it was the further "The MOSFET issue" stuff, as though this is *a known thing*, yet it was new info for me, and worrying. On further investigation it just didn't seem to have anything backing it. But you do you man, you're clearly not open to discussing it and I'm not gonna fight you.

[supercurio]

6 hours ago, Mango said:

Evx addresses the S20 cutouts and this forum’s shenanigans.

Indeed, now that I can compare facts with his story telling, I'm questioning everything I heard from him so far.
🤯 by the reality distortion field, which affects everybody live as a result.

[Forwardnbak]

Well I’m looking forward to upgraded screws. 

[bracky72]

Mick is a drama queen. He gets more hits from controversy. I’d just ignore him. 

[Blunzn]

Hsiang's part about the S20 torque, from 23:16 onwards, was probably the most interesting part from the 2h .... he got a Sherman for 2 weeks and pushed it to better compare it to the S20 in the cutout tunnel. after the initial throtteling, the power is definitly there. he got way quicker up to 47mph than he expected. his next video will be about riding the S20 in/near the 'dipping' zone, like reving it while accelerating. performance wise, after getting it going he had no complains, except small battery. he definitly liked that potholes were no longer a problem riding it in the city.

9 hours ago, Mango said:

Evx addresses the S20 cutouts and this forum’s shenanigans.

 

Edited March 10, 2022 by Blunzn
typo

[techyiam]

I am also looking forward to Hsiang upcoming video on the S20. He has painted a pretty positive overall picture of the S20 so far.

[Tawpie]

Only 3 days left in the Alien Rides auction! https://www.ebay.com/itm/King-Song-S20-Electric-Unicycle-Auction-for-Ukraine-/334354663844?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0

It'll only have the KS 1 year warranty, not the AR 2 year but the unremovable bolt problem is believed to be a 'defect' so you should get that corrected.

$$ goes to Ukraine humanitarian charity.

(the demo wheels don't seem to tilt back if you're into that sort of thing—production firmware will undoubtedly fix that though)

Edited March 10, 2022 by Tawpie

[evX_Mick]

8 hours ago, Rawnei said:

I think there are reasonable questions being asked by people interested in the wheel and trying to inform themselves and I don't see how that is causing grief for influences asking completely legitimate questions, if you make videos and/or statements you have to expect that people might have questions and I don't see the big deal.

I agree with what was already said here by @supercurio that I only know of a single case of rumored cut-out which was Kuji on a pre-pre-production wheel, as already been said the it was verified that the France incident was a overlean past the beeps.

 

So to sum it up, this forum is bad and we are all sharks because we ask too many questions.

I think all questions should be asked, as all these new wheels should be met with rigorous skepticism to see if they perform as advertised. No one here is shutting questions down. 

[evX_Mick]

7 hours ago, Marc Roberts said:

My understanding is the Kuji's cutout was on an older prototype and that the exact cause of the French guy's cutout is in dispute.

It's not that you didn't want to do the accel test, totally with you on that, it was the further "The MOSFET issue" stuff, as though this is *a known thing*, yet it was new info for me, and worrying. On further investigation it just didn't seem to have anything backing it. But you do you man, you're clearly not open to discussing it and I'm not gonna fight you.

His cut out was not an old prototype. He’s on the same model as Hsiang and myself. He was in fact on a firmware version that now at this point is older. But at the time that’s what we were all on. And you could feel the weakness in the motor. You can understand why it would be hard to trust the wheel after hearing these stories from China and Europe. We have used further iterations of the firmware and thankfully I haven’t cut out. But what I saw and what Afeez’s tech (Kevin) described to me, likely has to do with the mosfets. This is why it’s inefficient from 0-20mph and was causing cut out, in our opinions. The mosfets can’t handle you punching it from zero. Lots of wheels ca min handle that. But the s20 cannot. It may not be a big deal for some, but it’s something that should be known and why I honestly tell you all about these issues. I hope they can be resolved with better firmware or design changes. Either way I try to give you all the best of what we know and I’ll give my heavily biased opinion on if parts of a wheel are good or bad. 

Thanks again for the conversation.

-M 

Edited March 10, 2022 by evX_Mick

[UniVehje]

16 minutes ago, evX_Mick said:

likely has to do with the mosfets. This is why it’s inefficient from 0-20mph

Can anybody corroborate this statement that wrong MOSFETs might be the reason for surprisingly low mileage for the battery size? I’ve never heard anyone saying this before. 

[OldFartRides]

I think the word “ inefficient” is giving you the wrong impression. Don’t think he meant it in that way.

[RagingGrandpa]

44 minutes ago, evX_Mick said:

But what I saw and what Afeez’s tech (Kevin) described to me, likely has to do with the mosfets. This is why it’s [weak] from 0-20mph

Reviewers are complaining about pedal dip / overlean / shutoff during very strong acceleration from a standstill.
If the EUC doesn't stay upright, it means "not enough current was delivered." 

It's presumptive to blame a specific part of the controller... but yes, the controller is in control, and is the part of the EUC that is limiting the amount of current delivered to the motor.

We don't know exactly why Kingsong chose the current limiting values they did.
Perhaps increasing the limit would damage the controller quickly. Or damage some other part of the EUC. Or damage it only in a worst-case thermal condition.

As end-customers, it's not practical for us to upgrade individual chips on the controller... so I recommend interpreting these comments to only mean "the controller is weak, we want a stronger one." 

25 minutes ago, UniVehje said:

Can anybody corroborate this statement that wrong MOSFETs might be the reason for surprisingly low mileage for the battery size?
I’ve never heard anyone saying this before. 

Right. It's not.

The "feels weak" criticism was not about energy efficiency or range. Choice of FETs has very little impact on overall efficiency or range.
(Software and motor properties are much more relevant to efficiency, than IC's or wires.)

 

Edited March 10, 2022 by RagingGrandpa

[Marc Roberts]

53 minutes ago, evX_Mick said:

His cut out was not an old prototype. He’s on the same model as Hsiang and myself. He was in fact on a firmware version that now at this point is older. But at the time that’s what we were all on. And you could feel the weakness in the motor. You can understand why it would be hard to trust the wheel after hearing these stories from China and Europe. We have used further iterations of the firmware and thankfully I haven’t cut out. But what I saw and what Afeez’s tech (Kevin) described to me, likely has to do with the mosfets. This is why it’s inefficient from 0-20mph and was causing cut out, in our opinions. The mosfets can’t handle you punching it from zero. Lots of wheels ca min handle that. But the s20 cannot. It may not be a big deal for some, but it’s something that should be known and why I honestly tell you all about these issues. I hope they can be resolved with better firmware or design changes. Either way I try to give you all the best of what we know and I’ll give my heavily biased opinion on if parts of a wheel are good or bad. 

Thanks again for the conversation.

-M 

Thanks 🙏 appreciate the response and you sharing the info you have

Edited March 10, 2022 by Marc Roberts
Typo

[Tawpie]

27 minutes ago, UniVehje said:

surprisingly low mileage for the battery size?

Is it really that low though, in comparison? It seems like the RS-HS got 30 miles or so in SpeedyFeet's range test. Yes, it's 1800 Wh, but its spec weight is 52 lbs and we all know how weight and riding so that you drain the battery as quickly as you can interact.

I wish I had the time to go through Ian's range tests (and maybe Marty's) to gather the numbers, if someone without a day job barking at their heels gathered that info then perhaps we can get a sense of where the S20's battery efficiency falls relative to other wheels out there.

[Bizra6ot]

Rather than the word weak used by Evx which makes one think of the V12 problem, could it be due to the 'low' number (12) of FETS for 126V?
Begode had already increased from 12 to 18 for the Mpro, and now 24 for the Master

[RagingGrandpa]

30 minutes ago, Bizra6ot said:

could it be due to the 'low' number of FETS

Really we just want to know the maximum current the controller will output.

Gotway lists it (230A motor current, for almost all their traditional-design 100V controllers with 12xHY5012). 

Kingsong could list it... but hasn't yet.

 

Edited March 10, 2022 by RagingGrandpa

[Rawnei]

28 minutes ago, Bizra6ot said:

Rather than the word weak used by Evx which makes one think of the V12 problem, could it be due to the 'low' number (12) of FETS for 126V?
Begode had already increased from 12 to 18 for the Mpro, and now 24 for the Master

So are you saying MSP, RS and EXN are weak wheels too since they "only" have 12 mosfets?

[Tawpie]

I have to chuckle at "more MOSFETS" as having meaning when it comes to range or performance or durability. Having more CPU cores in your computer sounds like it would make it faster, but if they're the wrong kind of CPU or if they're not connected or managed properly by the operating system, they're just a higher parts count.

The thing that matters is which MOSFETs are you using, and how are you using them in the system as a whole. When you attempt to boil down the behavior of a very complex system to MOSFET count, you're demonstrating a lack of understanding of how these systems actually work. It's akin to asserting that 4 push pads will allow you to accelerate faster than 2. It might actually help to have 4, but only if they're designed and installed appropriately.

Edited March 10, 2022 by Tawpie