Kingsong S20/S22 (Confirmed)

[Tawpie]

5 minutes ago, lazybones99 said:

Speedyfeet said he did 60 km/h for 30 minutes straight no problem

I wonder what app he uses to find a place to charge in the countryside... 

Edited March 8, 2022 by Tawpie

[Paradox]

5 minutes ago, Tawpie said:

I wonder what app he uses to find a place to charge in the countryside... 

There is a solar charger in the box! 

[Rollin-on-1]

3 hours ago, Ronin Ryder said:

Yes? We do expect GW performance for a 126v wheel. Thats why theres a latent disappointment with some riders. 

Hsiang said it best: Kingsong didn't go to 126v to beat Gotway at their own game, KS went to 126v to go 45mph on their own terms.  I believe this to be a very true statement and it speaks to the reason I am getting a KS S20 rather than one of the many other 45+ mph 100v wheels by other manufacturers.

[Marc Roberts]

On 3/7/2022 at 1:33 AM, evX_Mick said:

How many bodies are enough for you? 2 is too few? I know this forum isn’t home turf for me lol, but seriously. Thats all. I won’t be responding to anything else. Enjoy the speculative banter. 

30 maybe?

Seriously though, just looking for some consistency really.

[supercurio]

46 minutes ago, Marc Roberts said:

30 maybe?

Seriously though, just looking for some consistency really.

And that was on December 29.. same day as @Richardo started his V12 Cutout tracking effort since cases were piling up. Then the next day: "time to flag the V12 as dangerous wheel and stop riding them"
Not the best take, but still kind of onto something with "if they don't screw it up". And the black box thing seem to have been a marketing promise which never materialized.

In any case, I'm sure we'll watch out for any S20 cutouts as a community.
So far I think:

• S20 beeps can be confusing when multiple are enabled.
• Several videos show the wheel over-powered at low speed / high torque and sometimes not beeping in a few specific scenarios.
  In these cases I'm not sure beeps would help the rider handle the over-power since it's already happening, in a very sudden way, but:
  An alert when reaching any kind of current, torque, voltage, power, temperature, PWM / load limit would be preferable.

From the same OEM, the 16X has tendency to beep too late when accelerating and about to be over-powered, which can lead to cutouts since it doesn't always give enough time for the rider to shift its center of gravity to stop accelerating. I'm watching out for that in S20 footage to see if they fixed it.
S18 can also beep too late, as Adam (Wrong Way) demonstrated in in a dramatic way in his acceleration test.

Also I'm suspicious to hear in videos that the pedals dipping forward is a safety mechanism - by design.
Can it actually be one, forcing the rider to react quickly with muscle memory while shitting their pants? Or it's just the board recovering from an overlean when possible. Not sure.

Edited March 8, 2022 by supercurio

[lazybones99]

1 hour ago, Tawpie said:

I wonder what app he uses to find a place to charge in the countryside... 

If his statement is true then that’s 18 miles. If he used the wheel to gauge the speed then it’s probably a little slower and less than 18 miles.

seems plausible 

[Forwardnbak]

He seems to be giving it a good workout and overall still seems pretty happy. Pretty boggy crap he was wading through. 
I’d like some kind of clarification on actual range from Kingsong as it still seems a little all over the place and all the stores seem to have been given quite blown out ranges according to their sale specs.

The fast charging is a good point I keep forgetting. 

[techyiam]

It seems the S20 is turning out to be a High Speed version, in the context of Begode's model naming convention. But that wasn't how it was framed in the original S20 debut. But since Jack explained in his latest Electric Dream S20 review video that Kingsong deliberate torque output limit for the first 3 meters was due to the current board design, using mosfets that are not capable of handling the high currents at 126V, the S20 could be as is.

I suppose the performance junkies need to wait for the next new wheel release, such as the Master, to see whether it will turn out to be the all-in-one High-Torque, High-Speed wheel.

Edited March 9, 2022 by techyiam

[Flying W]

I'd still like to see higher amp rated battery cell at the expense of some wh. The 4p in the RS goes easily beyond the per cell amp rating. 

With the S20 using the same cells the low spe d torque limiting might be for battery safety.

This is not good news of you go up steep trails at sub walking speeds getting stopped by ruts and roots and forcing the wheel to climb over them. 

If it's a board redesign that is needed to get the full potential hopefully one can be made that is a direct replacement for the early wheels and standard on the later batches. I was really hoping at 126v we'd get RST tourque with RSHS top speeds. 

 

[Miko.cz]

Not sure if we are not expecting too much.
Personally I hope KS will stay on its way - safety and conservative approach BUT with inovations AND communication with us.
Im not Begode/GW owner or fun because to me rider pays too high prize for top speed/acceleration/range/interesting prize etc. - fires and lack of responsibility, direct charging, quality, water proof, each 14 days new model etc. But I would not say its completely wrong, just not suits my needs.

[Forwardnbak]

5 hours ago, techyiam said:

3 meters was due to the  “CURRENT” board design, using mosfets that are not capable of handling the high currents at 126V, the S20 could be as is.

 

I keep reading that word “CURRENT” 

I like to dream that it alludes to a future developed board.

like Jack is hiding something in his box, like a jack in a box waiting to jump out release day and “SURPRISE 100 MOSFETS for everyone” 

oh boy I like dreams. 

 

[Bizra6ot]

3 hours ago, Flying W said:

 I was really hoping at 126v we'd get RST tourque with RSHS top speeds. 

 

I had much the same feeling when I discovered the specs on their website when the S20 was first launched
They announced 126V so high speed high torque and fast charging, but in the end they limited the starting, the top speed and the charging to 10A, nothing more than the standard 100V

Edited March 9, 2022 by Bizra6ot

[techyiam]

31 minutes ago, Forwardnbak said:

I keep reading that word “CURRENT” 

I like to dream that it alludes to a future developed board.

like Jack is hiding something in his box, like a jack in a box waiting to jump out release day and “SURPRISE 100 MOSFETS for everyone” 

oh boy I like dreams. 

 

Sorry, the word "current" was mine not Jack's. 

Edited March 9, 2022 by techyiam

[techyiam]

7 minutes ago, Bizra6ot said:

They announced 126V so high speed high torque and fast charging, but in the end they limited the starting, the top speed and the charging to 10A, nothing more than the standard 100V

Regarding top speed, they did say 70 kph. But we don't know whether that is the max, or that is the top speed with head-room built-in. SpeedyFeet didn't want to find out personally, and I don't blame him.

[techyiam]

What was also misleading with the S20 were the videos showing riders taking the S20 prototypes up 50 degrees or steeper slopes.

It appears both Inmotion and Kingsong are on a learning curve jumping from 84V. However, Inmotion is having to deal with a critical safety issue on 100V with production units, whereas Kingsong is dealing with off the line performance on 126V with pre-production units.

[evX_Mick]

16 hours ago, Marc Roberts said:

30 maybe?

Seriously though, just looking for some consistency really.

Honestly i don’t think you see the difference between a production model wheel that had serious issues and a pre-production wheel with little to no testing and us alpha testers putting our life on the line. Yes if you got a batch 2 v12 its equally as dangerous and once you learned of the danger you’d likely quit riding it. 
 

Same applies when I’m testing a wheel, for FREE content for this community, if i hear of a danger, admitted and spoken to me from Kingsong and their associates, I’m gonna tread carefully on the wheel. So 2-3 humans cutting out early on in the influencer releases,  would cause anyone to take pause. Often though they don’t tell us anything and we just didn’t out the hard way. So Kuji has been there more times than he should have been over the years. And had he been in America he may have sued these companies, depending on his stance on suing. 

Point is, there’s a relevance to why we showcase these things for you all. To know all we know and you can decide if it’s an issue or to just pay close attention to the wheel over time and see if the issue is resolved. 

The v12 straw man premise is quite silly but maybe you didn’t see the nuance so I’ll give It a pass. 
 

Hopefully this clears it up.

 

Thanks for the conversation.

 

-M

[Marc Roberts]

1 hour ago, evX_Mick said:

Honestly i don’t think you see the difference between a production model wheel that had serious issues and a pre-production wheel with little to no testing and us alpha testers putting our life on the line. Yes if you got a batch 2 v12 its equally as dangerous and once you learned of the danger you’d likely quit riding it. 
 

Same applies when I’m testing a wheel, for FREE content for this community, if i hear of a danger, admitted and spoken to me from Kingsong and their associates, I’m gonna tread carefully on the wheel. So 2-3 humans cutting out early on in the influencer releases,  would cause anyone to take pause. Often though they don’t tell us anything and we just didn’t out the hard way. So Kuji has been there more times than he should have been over the years. And had he been in America he may have sued these companies, depending on his stance on suing. 

Point is, there’s a relevance to why we showcase these things for you all. To know all we know and you can decide if it’s an issue or to just pay close attention to the wheel over time and see if the issue is resolved. 

The v12 straw man premise is quite silly but maybe you didn’t see the nuance so I’ll give It a pass. 
 

Hopefully this clears it up.

 

Thanks for the conversation.

 

-M

You're missing my point, on purpose I think, but I'll give it a pass.

You're a skilled rider, a talented videographer, and an entertaining YouTuber. People pay attention to you when you say something. So when you say something in one of your videos, people take it at face value. As you said in your Facebook reply to me in December, there's a difference between overpowering a wheel, and it cutting out due to mechanical failure. You don't make it clear in your video which of these scenarios happened in the cases you mention. You should have.

*Edit*
Look, for clarity, on the whole I agree with you and the video, the lack of low speed power delivery is concerning, I just think we could do with all trying to use consistent language when it comes to overlean vs. cutout. It's an important difference right? And if we're going to press the manufacturers to do better it pays for us to all be on the same page on what exactly that means.

Edited March 9, 2022 by Marc Roberts
Clarity

[techyiam]

Jimmy Chang's YouTube review on the S20 has now garnered 235k views, and climbing. 

[evX_Mick]

38 minutes ago, Marc Roberts said:

You're missing my point, on purpose I think, but I'll give it a pass.

You're a skilled rider, a talented videographer, and an entertaining YouTuber. People pay attention to you when you say something. So when you say something in one of your videos, people take it at face value. As you said in your Facebook reply to me in December, there's a difference between overpowering a wheel, and it cutting out due to mechanical failure. You don't make it clear in your video which of these scenarios happened in the cases you mention. You should have.

*Edit*
Look, for clarity, on the whole I agree with you and the video, the lack of low speed power delivery is concerning, I just think we could do with all trying to use consistent language when it comes to overlean vs. cutout. It's an important difference right? And if we're going to press the manufacturers to do better it pays for us to all be on the same page on what exactly that means.

“You don't make it clear in your video which of these scenarios happened in the cases you mention. You should have.”

that’s your quote. 
 

my reply:

Ok to say it one more time: they were cut outs. Not over lean. I said the word “cut out” in my video. I got this info from Kuji himself, about his cut out and the guy in France. If you’re looking for me to be specific about every single inch of detail of how why and when i know something (what time of day and mood Kuji was in when he told me this, etc), you’re barking up the wrong tree. This isn’t a dissertation on atomic particles, it’s an overview review video based on my experience with the wheel and the info I know. If YOU don’t like my presentation  in regards to detail, I'm sorry but i can’t help you there. Plenty of wonderful engineer-types make videos. I would encourage you to watch their videos for THAT kind of detail. 

If you feel strongly about how poorly I create these free reviews for the community I would encourage you to create a YT channel and dedicate your time to showing in great detail how I fail at it. I’m very much for “better ideas will win out over poor ideas”. 

But truthfully I think you’re looking for some sort of evil or negligent motive here and you’re got the complete wrong idea. You all know what I know. And if you know more, than awesome! The more knowledge the better. Share it with us all so we are all enriched. 
 

thanks again.

M

[Marc Roberts]

11 minutes ago, evX_Mick said:

“You don't make it clear in your video which of these scenarios happened in the cases you mention. You should have.”

that’s your quote. 
 

my reply:

Ok to say it one more time: they were cut outs. Not over lean. I said the word “cut out” in my video. I got this info from Kuji himself, about his cut out and the guy in France. If you’re looking for me to be specific about every single inch of detail of how why and when i know something (what time of day and mood Kuji was in when he told me this, etc), you’re barking up the wrong tree. This isn’t a dissertation on atomic particles, it’s an overview review video based on my experience with the wheel and the info I know. If YOU don’t like my presentation  in regards to detail, I'm sorry but i can’t help you there. Plenty of wonderful engineer-types make videos. I would encourage you to watch their videos for THAT kind of detail. 

If you feel strongly about how poorly I create these free reviews for the community I would encourage you to create a YT channel and dedicate your time to showing in great detail how I fail at it. I’m very much for “better ideas will win out over poor ideas”. 

But truthfully I think you’re looking for some sort of evil or negligent motive here and you’re got the complete wrong idea. You all know what I know. And if you know more, than awesome! The more knowledge the better. Share it with us all so we are all enriched. 
 

thanks again.

M

Not a fan of constructive feedback. Got it.

[supercurio]

2 hours ago, evX_Mick said:

Same applies when I’m testing a wheel, for FREE content for this community, if i hear of a danger, admitted and spoken to me from Kingsong and their associates, I’m gonna tread carefully on the wheel.

Absolutely, if you're not confident with a wheel's safety there's no point pushing yourself in what you think is uncertain in terms of safety.
Making content about a wheel should not mean having to become a crash test dummy, that would be insane.

I don't believe anybody here would like you to push beyond your boundaries to please them.

2 hours ago, evX_Mick said:

So 2-3 humans cutting out early on in the influencer releases,  would cause anyone to take pause.

Again yes safety first.
2 or 3 tho?

1/ Kuji cutout was on earlier prototype (no details about hardware & firmware differences since)
NOT 2/ French cutout is rider error - kept accelerating past the beeps (doesn't count against wheel safety record)

So is there a third one?

2 hours ago, evX_Mick said:

Often though they don’t tell us anything and we just didn’t out the hard way. So Kuji has been there more times than he should have been over the years. And had he been in America he may have sued these companies, depending on his stance on suing.

Yes Kuji seem to be a really early tester, and has been taking a beating recently.

No doubt there's need for better stress testing and load simulation during R&D, with rigs built on purpose to simulate all sort of riding.
It's feasible but it seems that the industry is not there yet.

1 hour ago, evX_Mick said:

Ok to say it one more time: they were cut outs. Not over lean.

I said the word “cut out” in my video. I got this info from Kuji himself, about his cut out and the guy in France.

Again, the guy in France is a cut-out like anybody else would cut-out by accelerating past the beeps on every wheel released so far. Have you talked to him directly (M.)- or to the owner of the S20 (R.) who was present when it happened - and heard the beeps?

So from this list it's 2 - right? Not 3: do you confirm?

I think it's important to be precise for 3 main reasons:

• everyone can make up their mind from an accurate picture. safety requirements tend to be personal
• future S20 riders know what to watch out for
• community will pay extra attention to cut-outs following a similar pattern

Thanks,

Edited March 9, 2022 by supercurio

[Marc Roberts]

1 hour ago, evX_Mick said:

“You don't make it clear in your video which of these scenarios happened in the cases you mention. You should have.”

that’s your quote. 
 

my reply:

Ok to say it one more time: they were cut outs. Not over lean. I said the word “cut out” in my video. I got this info from Kuji himself, about his cut out and the guy in France. If you’re looking for me to be specific about every single inch of detail of how why and when i know something (what time of day and mood Kuji was in when he told me this, etc), you’re barking up the wrong tree. This isn’t a dissertation on atomic particles, it’s an overview review video based on my experience with the wheel and the info I know. If YOU don’t like my presentation  in regards to detail, I'm sorry but i can’t help you there. Plenty of wonderful engineer-types make videos. I would encourage you to watch their videos for THAT kind of detail. 

If you feel strongly about how poorly I create these free reviews for the community I would encourage you to create a YT channel and dedicate your time to showing in great detail how I fail at it. I’m very much for “better ideas will win out over poor ideas”. 

But truthfully I think you’re looking for some sort of evil or negligent motive here and you’re got the complete wrong idea. You all know what I know. And if you know more, than awesome! The more knowledge the better. Share it with us all so we are all enriched. 
 

thanks again.

M

You seem to think that you’re being attacked here. Please could we all agree that you’re not, that people in the community just want to know the facts so they can make a purchase or swerve from an informed position.

It’d be better having an amicable discussion, and all the richer for you being part of that, we all have this one hobby in common at the very least 🤝

Edited March 9, 2022 by Marc Roberts
Repeating myself myself

[evX_Mick]

4 hours ago, Marc Roberts said:

Not a fan of constructive feedback. Got it.

No need for snarky-ass comments like this. YOU came to me with the gripe. I’ve been nice enough to response but clearly that was quite silly of me. 
 

again I’ve yet to see anyone here convince me of why i should put my life on the line for you, especially after this thread. At this point i seriously don’t understand the problem you have with the video… again, a feee video you didn’t have to pay for to see…

[evX_Mick]

3 hours ago, Marc Roberts said:

You seem to think that you’re being attacked here. Please could we all agree that you’re not, that people in the community just want to know the facts so they can make a purchase or swerve from an informed position.

It’d be better having an amicable discussion, and all the richer for you being part of that, we all have this one hobby in common at the very least 🤝

Also what do you mean by “we just want to know the facts”? Where have facts been withheld? Kuji and French guy cut out right before I got my s20. So as a father of 3 I said, not doing accel test, not worth it. 
 

where have i misunderstood what your issue is?

[supercurio]

I'm starting to wonder if @evX_Mick muted me or something like that.

I'm trying to get some factual information out of the discussion after sharing details myself to confirm a common understanding, but it's like he's not seeing any of my messages.
The only engagement are responses to emotions of feeling attacked, ignoring everything else including agreement or attempts at de-escalation.

 

Anyway - I'd be interesting to know if there was actually a 3rd S20 cut-out (from wheel issue or rider error)