Kingsong S20/S22 (Confirmed)

[fbhb]

1 minute ago, Seba said:

Now it's time to work on improving the support for S20 in the EUC World app. And this time the experience with S20 is only positive, because I managed to introduce into application support for smart BMS in this wheel 

Awesome news @Seba! I knew you would come through on adding the BMS info for us, Legend!

[Rolzi]

 

[Paul A]

Looks so easy....

 

 

[supercurio]

4 hours ago, UniVehje said:

Cancelled. I think going with 4p was a mistake. 

What's done is done.

For anybody else, remember that 4p at 126V / 30 series is 120 21700 cells.

It's the same power capability as a 100.8V 5p wheel would have, right in between a MSP (96 cells) and EX.N (144 cells).

All that connected to a torque oriented motor, roughly similar (5% more) in kV ratio as a C38 / Gotway HT motor.

So while the wheel will have nowhere near infinite power and torque, and for extreme usage it would benefit from high drain cells, there's nothing fundamentally wrong with the S20 "4p".

Edited March 6, 2022 by supercurio

[techyiam]

9 hours ago, Rawnei said:

So, Adam took his V11 to that same hill today and it completely burned out at the same spot that the S20 was struggling. 😅

https://www.instagram.com/tv/CawyLD_FE8D/

Now this is somewhat puzzling. No one has ever shown a V11 being able to go up a 50° slope. But Jack Kingsong and others have on the S20.

[Rollin-on-1]

1 hour ago, supercurio said:

There's nothing fundamentally wrong with the S20 "4p".

Except for the limited range when riding aggressively.  

[fryman]

2 hours ago, Paul A said:

Looks so easy....

 

 

That's not a s20.

[evX_Mick]

On 3/3/2022 at 9:48 PM, supercurio said:

I'm not aware of any documented board failure.
The only reference has been by KingSong themselves with their odd explanation for a some kind of throttling during the first 3 meters in their testing

@evX_Mick says "some notable influencers have already cut-out on this wheel in hard accelerating" as a reason why he did not perform an acceleration test.
It always makes sense to not take unnecessary risk on an unfinished wheel, no doubt about that.

However, there are 2 reported cut-out which are:

• Kuji in December, long prior to the firmware which was oscillating significantly at high speeds
  (IMO OEMs should still have better testing so early testers don't get hurt)
• A french rider who, confused by multiple speed beeps active ended up accelerating beyond the final beep, and overlean
  (IMO there should be only 1 beep type to avoid such accident)

Unless there are more @evX_Mick knows about and we don't, obscuring the count and circumstances beyond "some" without giving context is an unfair tarnishing of reputation for a fine product. If there are more incident, it would be best to talk about them openly IMO, so they can be analyzed, learned from, and checked to make sure it doesn't happen on production wheels later.

And please correct me if I'm wrong!

How many bodies are enough for you? 2 is too few? I know this forum isn’t home turf for me lol, but seriously. Thats all. I won’t be responding to anything else. Enjoy the speculative banter. 

[Tawpie]

We do all know that every wheel model ever made has cutout when the operator overleans, right? Are we really that surprised here?

[techyiam]

Jimmy Chang video review on the S20 has managed to garner about 149k views so far. Are the scooter crowd being enticed by the S20's eye catching splashy looks, and curious about it having only one wheel? 

[Forwardnbak]

Man I feel like my buzz went from good, to hmmmmm, to bad, to confusing.

Kinda like a night out drinking 

[Tawpie]

2 hours ago, Forwardnbak said:

Man I feel like my buzz went from good, to hmmmmm, to bad, to confusing.

Here's my take.

I want a simple upgrade: S18 grade suspension for off-road and enough battery to get me to and from the trails without range anxiety. My 16X has fit my bill very nicely (typical excursion is 65 miles with 30% remaining), but the dang horses make the paths crazy bumpy and riding was not as much fun as it was nerve-and-everything-else rattling. Suspension and range, that's all I want.

I ride purely for fun and I don't ride 'aggressively'. I'm old and what gets broke, stays broke (stolen from @Paulo Mesquita) so no playing in traffic. That means basically zero need for riding the beeps much less accelerating to avoid a car when I'm already at please decelerate. I prefer to cruise at 20 mph, maybe a little faster but I don't like the wind noise. I'm perfectly content to go slower when the situation calls for it. I don't want to go 50 mph. I don't want to drag race at the hairy edge of a faceplant. I just want to ride the trails, blue single track, and be in the woods without having to hike.

I have to run around in the shower to even get wet, so I have an unfair advantage when it comes to range. I took the S18 out on a tour with the better half today to get an updated range estimate for the marketing department... 45°F, 33.5 miles, 10.5 mph riding speed—42% remaining. 8.9 Wh/km. I do not know why I get great range, but I do.  https://euc.world/tour/607600536318257

So looking at what's been youtubed:

• I'll be buying some aftermarket stuff but probably won't need an entire case of duct tape.
• It's going to turn worse than the TR1 on the S18, leave time for more drills
• Everyone seems to like the suspension, particularly if it's properly setup.
• Range is all over the map, but I have that unfair advantage.
• If it has traction, it has the torque to go up things that you can't get safely back down. Loose soil is still loose soil, they didn't fix that.
• When I'm going 30 mph, I will want to leave plenty of room to stop, and I will keep emergency braking in my pre-ride routine.
• It might be better backwards when on dry pavement... daytime only! Maybe aftermarket googly eyes beside the shock so I know which way to point.
• I am absolutely flabbergasted to find that I should use velcro to attach the pads. Brilliant. Who ever figured that out should get a mini nobel. It is a real shame that I'll have to remove 4 screws and 2 pieces of plastic to get a large flat mounting surface... what were they thinking.

If I change my mind and want to start racing, I'd better think EX.N. If I catch the pavement eater bug, I'd better get something from Leaper Kim or wait for the 104 lb tease. If I quit caring about how my wheel looks, there are myriad offerings.

Master may well prove to be a 'superior' wheel in that it goes faster, farther and is quicker off the line, if that is important to you then it would be wise to wait. If it it critically important then you have little choice but to wait. Farther would be nice, but jeepers, couldn't they hire someone to do even a little bit of industrial design?

Me? It seems like with the S20 I'll get an even better suspension, wide choice of wide tires, beefy rim, better insight into my batteries, a backup system for the hall sensors, what-is-that looks, plus level headlights, and I might get twice the range of my S18. I'm figuring in real life my range will be in line with my 16X, and that's plenty. On the 16X I am entertained for 5 solid hours—and I only cover 65 miles or so.

I'm totally jacked. And I need to quit putting miles on the S18. It will be for sale.

Edited March 7, 2022 by Tawpie

[Rawnei]

1 hour ago, Paul A said:

Tiny solid state batteries.

Could a few thousand in a pack be used for EUCs?  

Too cost prohibitive? 

Toyota has made a car operating on solid state batteries.

 

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a38711469/toyota-solid-state-batteries-2025/

Toyota announced that its first vehicle to use solid-state batteries will go on sale by 2025 in an interview with Autoline. The first Toyotas to use the new batteries will be hybrids, rather than fully electric vehicles, making it possible the first to get the new battery could be the Prius.

10 Jan 2022

I don't see what it has to do with S20 discussion but yes solid state batteries are the future once they are market ready.

[supercurio]

7 hours ago, evX_Mick said:

How many bodies are enough for you? 2 is too few? I know this forum isn’t home turf for me lol, but seriously. Thats all. I won’t be responding to anything else. Enjoy the speculative banter. 

Do you know that on the French cutout, 2 of 2:

• I talked to one of the two riders present at the time, who heard the beeps, saw it happen
• It was specifically chosen by this reviewer to not mention it on its channel to avoid polluting the S20 launch with an unfair cutout reputation
• There is no doubt it was rider error
• Adam - Wrong Way had acknowledgment from the rider who crashed (not the original reviewer who received the S20) to mention it in a video and he did so without any details

Then what you said in you video is exactly the speculation the reviewer wanted to avoid, blaming the cutout on the wheel by lack of context and misunderstanding that it was 100% roder error, which would end up in overlean with every wheel out here.

If you don't believe what I wrote here, ask me directly and I'll get you in touch with the right people to investigate it.

 

On the topic of cutout which appears to be one of priority, I'm assuming to keep your audience safe:, why no PSA on your channel that every V12 out here is a ticking bomb wether it passed the stress test or not? All of them will cutout sonner or later, and there is significant risk riding them until they're fixed with an upgraded board. I've been in talks with Inmotion since the beginning of the crisis, and will be happy to share details to help you make this video.

Edited March 7, 2022 by supercurio

[Paul A]

People are disappointed by S20 range.

Solid state batteries energy density currently around 400 Wh per kg, projected 450 by 2025.

Lithium batteries energy density currently around 265 Wh per kg.

Mass production required to satisfy automotive industry, but perhaps current production is enough for niche EUC manufacturing.

Where/how were Toyota able to source solid state batteries for this prototype, video posted six months ago.

 

Edited March 7, 2022 by Paul A
Video link included

[Rolzi]

I am sure many of you have seen this video, but did you see this version that shows S18 going up the same climb. 

 

[RagingGrandpa]

On 3/5/2022 at 6:42 AM, Miko.cz said:

Seba ride of KS-S20 now online https://euc.world/tour/607550710424222 (also visible in his signature). Go Seba, go!

https://forum.electricunicycle.org/topic/22507-kingsong-s20-confirmed/?do=findComment&comment=408318 

On 3/5/2022 at 10:11 AM, Planemo said:

Jesus, is it right that the wheel is maintaining a temp only just above ambient??!!

Well, it's a slow ride and only 600W being used... a range test, not a stress test.

On 3/5/2022 at 11:37 PM, fbhb said:

It's Very Unlikely we'll ever see the "Jesus Wheel"

 

[Planemo]

1 hour ago, RagingGrandpa said:

Well, it's a slow ride and only 600W being used... a range test, not a stress test.

 

I get that, but it's just weird to see, no doubt due to it being a non-fanned wheel. All the fanned wheels behave much like cars - they heat up quick to a certain temp then generally hang there irrespective of stress or ambients.

I guess my Z10 would be similar to the S20 re it's temp profile but I've never spent enough time on it going through EUCW logs to even notice

 

[5Cauac]

5 hours ago, Rolzi said:

I am sure many of you have seen this video, but did you see this version that shows S18 going up the same climb. 

After seeing many mother board frying incline videos on YT, I realized the scary fact that I've done things on my S18 that never should have been attempted. 

[Curt8892]

On 3/6/2022 at 2:24 AM, Paul A said:

Solid state batteries.

 

 

Toyota the company that does not believe in BEVs. If you have a solid state battery why you put it in a Hybrid. 
 

 

[Paradox]

Just posted.

 

[Tawpie]

1 hour ago, Paradox said:

Just posted.

 

loose quote: "we're not treating KS fairly, we read 126V and expected GW performance".

Fair enough.

[Ronin]

38 minutes ago, Tawpie said:

loose quote: "we're not treating KS fairly, we read 126V and expected GW performance".

Fair enough.

Yes? We do expect GW performance for a 126v wheel. Thats why theres a latent disappointment with some riders. 

[Freeforester]

 

[lazybones99]

That’s good to know that you can sustain higher speeds on this.
 

Speedyfeet said he did 60 km/h for 30 minutes straight no problem and sustained 65km/h but did not specify the duration.