Kingsong S20/S22 (Confirmed)

[.....]

2 hours ago, Felix said:

Hi Seba, I have a newish  18XL, never ridden it to 0%.. , so could you please explain what is the expected behavior with Kingsong at low batt? Can I ride it a bit more when its tilting back without it dumping me? 

You have nothing to fear. The 18XL was back when KS made a wheel that was REALLY damn safe. Of course it has the same rules to follow, but I wouldnt compare old KS and their penchant for reliable safety, with NEW KS and their penchant to keep up with the newest idea at a cost of their previous philosophy. I've hit tiltback and low battery on both the 18L and 18XL. Tbh, it was perfect and even tho I had NO IDEA wtf was happening (i was very new), it kept me safe. It kind of saddens me to hear that KS hasnt quite kept the same level of safety, dependability and conservative bliss that I had grown to be so fond of. Fwiw, low batt tiltback on my XL, simply stays tileted back and goes VERY slowly. You will not mistake it. IF you keep riding with the tilt at low battery, it will eventually just stop. EIther it comes to an easy stop, or it simply falls. Either way, you have ample warning and it happens so slowly, you are easily able to walk it off. The simplicity and shape of the XL is also VERY capable of handling a low speed fall over, w/o breaking bits off it. Add a RollNZ and you can really beat it up while it stays looking good.

Edited March 5, 2022 by ShanesPlanet

[Paradox]

4 hours ago, Seba said:

Nothing happened to me, but my jacket, gloves and hip bag got damaged.

Glad you are good.  Gear can be replaced.  Your hard work and dedication to the community is appreciated.  I am glad to be a premium member to support your efforts.

[Forwardnbak]

Glad it’s not rolling out production next week. They have time! 
Thanks to so much testing and quality results  like yours Seba they should have enough to understand what is wanted from the community. 
Rather than a rush to push product out, I’d prefer they take time and redesign the slight issues properly.
 

Even if I had to wait longer I’d feel better knowing it had full power of the mark, better range, better braking, increased low battery warnings, less lock tight and decent screws with better plastics. (And a Matt black colour option) 

[Rolzi]

 

[Forwardnbak]

2 minutes ago, Rolzi said:

 

Just looking for something g to watch with my coffee, cheers Rolzi. 

[.....]

27 minutes ago, Forwardnbak said:

Glad it’s not rolling out production next week. They have time! 
Thanks to so much testing and quality results  like yours Seba they should have enough to understand what is wanted from the community. 
Rather than a rush to push product out, I’d prefer they take time and redesign the slight issues properly.
 

Even if I had to wait longer I’d feel better knowing it had full power of the mark, better range, better braking, increased low battery warnings, less lock tight and decent screws with better plastics. (And a Matt black colour option) 

Hope springs eternal. 'History' has shown us that you're gna have to wait for a revision or two. Everytime a wheel gets announced, it gets pushed back again and again. The hopefulls of us, think its a sign that they are fixing the issues and it will be just fine before LATE release. Specs change, prices change, release dates change. IN the end, the first version winds up needing SOMETHING anyhow. Some people like being the beta testers. I fully belive that customers who buy the first versions, are still 'testers'. If you're okay with that, go for it! Some people like the gamble and couldnt fathom being late to the party... I've been a tester with my wallet, twice now. I've done my duty as an euc enthusiast. Now its someone else's turn. You know, for the greater good. I truly envy anyone who has access to test ride a wheel before buying. Out here at ShanesPlanet, I have to BUY one to find out. Even with stellar sales service, I know I cant return a wheel once I've ridden it, JUST because i dont like it or the design is shit. LUckily, I HAVE ridden a Nik I didnt have to buy. Saved me a LOT of money too.

Decent screws?        Yeah, and Ive got oceanfront property to sell in Arizona. Resign to knowing its gna be chinesium screws and its just a matter of YOU buying a replacement kit of quality. I'd LOVE to be wrong and we could all cheer that at least ONE euc company splurged on screws/bolts/allens and inserts. You know, like using a impact resistant flexible part instead of one that shatters, for a bumper. Shouldnt some things be so obvious that it won't be made wrong to begin with?

Edited March 5, 2022 by ShanesPlanet

[Forwardnbak]

I think I have my EUC enthusiast outfit on this time. My wallet is on the line as a tester for the first time but my vid camera will be rolling and I’ll show the whole ugly thing. 
 

I appreciate all the tests and money you all spent to get the game where it is. I kinda hoped the companies had learned from all your money and figured a few things my now. 
 

I kinda believed Kingsong were secretly holding onto the golden screws for the production models to wow us all again. 

[Tawpie]

There we go! Finally, someone that doesn't like it—didn't like it out of the box, didn't like riding it. Great to see it isn't really the wheel to end all wheels after all.

Now, cancel your pre-orders so I can move up in the line. Please?

Edited March 5, 2022 by Tawpie

[.....]

3 minutes ago, Forwardnbak said:

I think I have my EUC enthusiast outfit on this time. My wallet is on the line as a tester for the first time but my vid camera will be rolling and I’ll show the whole ugly thing. 
 

I appreciate all the tests and money you all spent to get the game where it is. I kinda hoped the companies had learned from all your money and figured a few things my now. 
 

I kinda believed Kingsong were secretly holding onto the golden screws for the production models to wow us all again. 

As the owner of a V11, I EXPECT you to give us a critical comparison. Hopefully you can wait for the comparison until after you are over being emtionally ecstatic or disappointed. I few moments on an s18 and I got an idea of what a suspension COULD bring to the table. Even tho it wasnt up to MY standards, I see how a properly developed suspension wheel, could make for a very comfortable street ride. I am eagerly awaiting a wheel to compare with my 18xl in all areas bt have suspension as well. Im assuming it will HAVE to weigh a little more, but done right, perhaps worth it.

Really DO let us know. Or perhaps PM me and you can let the opinion fly unabashed. I am happy with my current wheels, but that doesnt mean Im not watching out to see if theres a viable replacement in the works. All my needs are met atm, so its gna take a REALLY badass wheel, to convince me to buy it. Im not collecting wheels and 3 sounds like a great number. No room for more here, just room for replacement.

[Meso]

Wrong way vid is super interresting.

Adam is saying that the turning radius of the wheel is not great. He is puting this behavior on the tire.

After seing his video it get pretty obvious why this wheel dosent have a great turning radius and I dont think the tire is the main culpit here. Just think about this... if you simply tilt the wheel on the side like 10 or 20 degree and hold with 1 finger in the middle, it will naturaly want to pivot toward the suspension because it is heavier on the back. This behaviour create a force that actualy oppose the natural turning dirrection when riding. The more you tilt it and the more it will counteract the turning. Riding it in reverse will obviously help the wheel to turn better because the levrage create by the weight of the suspension will tork it in the turn dirrection.

To what extend this is annoying I can't tell because I haven't had the chance to ride it but unfortunatly I dont think this is something that can be fixed. At least without some major redisign.

[Paradox]

18 minutes ago, Meso said:

To what extend this is annoying I can't tell because I haven't had the chance to ride it but unfortunatly I dont think this is something that can be fixed. At least without some major redisign.

Just make the front bumber that keeps breaking out of lead.  Counterweight? 

[Flying W]

@Meso that's interesting about the shock, I wonder if over time having it in the front will become normal. 

I'm sure suspension is here to stay so the designs will only get better. 

I still like the lack of maintenance on a normal euc....but I'd love to have a much smoother ride over the rough trails. 

I don't know how well the plastic on metal sliders that need grease will hold up to southwest US dust always grinding away in there though. 

[DavidB]

10 hours ago, Miko.cz said:

Im thinking about it more now. OK, Im not so excited now, but I expected worse results.

1. definitively it should not you let cutout and fall. Did you tried to simple turn off-on EUC to remove tiltback and ride a few more meters?
2. maybe display batt lvl is based on some internal calculation of used energy vs theoretical battery max capacity?
3. 18XL have probably double plastic shelter with small space of air isolation between them and more airflow from PCB of hot air to battery - compared to single alloy shelter of S20 which seems to be a big passive heatsink. I think it matters, especially in the end.
4. my own difference of battery summer/winter, same track (38km) is about 20% (KS-16S), but I have also older battery and heavier winter clothes.
5. +13kg of S20 vs 18XL, maybe also heavier clothes?
6. higher avg. speed of XL, good point, I cannot argue
7. last 15km seems to be different terrain profile based on data (more up-downs)

I hope the above arguments are not just my own trying to appologize results.

Re: Miko.cz point 3. I also feel the aluminium battery case is sucking the performance out of the batteries at low temperatures. A few days ago I came across YT vid about battery performance by Bjorn Nyland in his Tesla which showed just how much the battery performance is degraded at low temperature.

I mean his cold temps were not really that cold but looking at the 40% state of charge maximum discharge at 18 degrees was only about 3/4 of that at 10 degrees hotter. It is the same maximum discharge degregation result for 70% state of charge but at this state of charge maximum regen (braking) is only about 1/3 at 14 degrees compared to what it is at 26 degrees C. I imagine at 0-5 degrees C ( Speedyfeet, Wrongway, Seba) the differences would be even more stark.

I think this is why the S20 is liked so much more in California etc than in the UK and Europe and this also explains the huge differences in range. Aluminium is a fantastic heat dissipator but this is terrible for batteries in Northern winters and the S20 design makes insulation awkward.

Some were dissing the Hero's plastic battery cases but in this regard they do have an advantage.

Edited March 6, 2022 by DavidB
addition&spelling

[meepmeepmayer]

Oh man this was supposed to be the Jesus wheel. Now we have to wait and see how it really is...

[fbhb]

17 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Oh man this was supposed to be the Jesus wheel. Now we have to wait and see how it really is...

It's Very Unlikely we'll ever see the "Jesus Wheel" in our lifetime. All the EUC companies are turning out flawed product, No matter the brand, time after time.

The worst thing about this is that it seems to be a perpetual merry go round of: New wheel announced, New wheel put under scrutiny, New wheel's flaws discovered, New wheel's early adopters, pay the price dealing with the issues/recalls!

Nothing has changed in this regard over the last few years, especially now with both Inmotion & King Song (reputedly the more quality/safety focused brands) releasing flawed, or unsafe EUC's to the community!

Rant Over.

Edited March 6, 2022 by fbhb

[Forwardnbak]

20 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Oh man this was supposed to be the Jesus wheel. Now we have to wait and see how it really is...

well, wasn’t Jesus born again after he died the first time? ….

or, make believe? A false show pony Or something? 
 

I don’t even believe in Jebus 

Edited March 6, 2022 by Forwardnbak

[Tawpie]

46 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Oh man this was supposed to be the Jesus wheel. Now we have to wait and see how it really is...

Next candidate: Master!

[GoGeorgeGo]

52 minutes ago, Tawpie said:

Next candidate: Master!

We need a new battery technology to truely get a one wheel to rule them all. Its simply impossible to make a wheel light enough with enough range and power to make everyone happy. 

My dream wheel weighs about 55lbs, has either 2700wh of battery with super fast charging capabilities (30amps+) or like 5000wh of capacity with 10-15 amp charging. Batteries with stable chemistry which has low low low fire chance.  Has a 20-24 inch tire, suspension, built in charger, waterproof or damn near, redundant control boards.

We are not even remotely close to a "god" wheel yet lol give it 15 years 

[Paul A]

Solid state batteries.

 

 

[Bizra6ot]

13 hours ago, Tawpie said:

unlikely (it would be a minor bug, if anything is wrong at all)... the fact that the wheel cutoff indicates it didn't have enough remaining power to balance—very low voltage is a direct indicator of lack of sufficient power under load.

Thanks indeed I just read seba's message after mine I didn't know he had cut off at the end

Is it not risky to go so low on the voltage with a ks? I remember a rider who did this on his ks s18 to evaluate the total range by continuing his range test around his house about 6 miles after the low voltage beeps until the wheel totaly stop and it killed one of the cells

Edited March 6, 2022 by Bizra6ot

[Miko.cz]

3 minutes ago, Bizra6ot said:

Is it not risky to go so low on the voltage with a ks?...

7700km on KS-16S, no, it isnt. I did it last 2 months twice. Battery still able to charge up to 67.7V (EUC is 67.2V rated)

[UniVehje]

Starting to feel like canceling my preorder. 

Well, at least they got the unnecessary top speed number covered. 

[mrelwood]

 

On 3/4/2022 at 6:47 PM, meepmeepmayer said:

"Good" braking would mean you lean back slightly and feel like the wheel reacts instanly and easily.

Yes, like a 14” wheel. A well made soft riding mode is the only thing that can go a bit on that direction. But this is a large wheel issue, ie. geometry.

On 3/4/2022 at 6:56 PM, Jon Stern said:

I didn't hear evX talk about board failures (as in things blowing up). His hypothesis is the MOSFETs can't provide sufficient current for hard acceleration and braking.

Which is fundamentally wrong. Bear with me…

On 3/5/2022 at 1:04 AM, Forwardnbak said:

I just wondered if the bad brake result might come from a power limit on the board similar to the first 3mtr thing but reverse? 
would the power delivery be limited in a similar way when hard braking? 

No, it has nothing to do with the power delivery.

On 3/5/2022 at 1:28 AM, Tawpie said:

So if the braking is bad, it's because either the hardware isn't up to it or because the firmware is being too cautious.

Sorry, no.

On 3/5/2022 at 1:28 AM, Tawpie said:

(that got me thinking... the V12 was faulted for lackluster braking—were they protecting the MOSFETs?)

Again, no.

Yet another reminder of the fundamental nature of self-balancing vehicles. The wheel’s intention is never to brake or accelerate. It’s always to stay horizontal front to back. That’s what all the power is used for.

When braking, the wheel still tries to stay upright with all it’s might. It doesn’t have brakes. If the power is limited or insufficient, the wheel doesn’t increase the braking distance. It tilts backwards and the rider falls on their butt.

 Same with acceleration. The wheel never tries to accelerate. It tries to stay upright. If the power is limited or insufficient, we call it a faceplant, because the wheel fails to stay upright.

Think about what would happen if you’d turn the wheel off during braking. It wouldn’t just keep coasting staying upright. It would only flip backwards. That’s what happens when there’s not enough power.

 If the wheel is successful in staying horizontally level, it has enough power for the given situation. Be it braking, accelerating, climbing up a hill or whatever. Increasing the maximum available power wouldn’t change anything.

 Think about the ridiculously low powered 14” wheels of past years. They are very sensitive to accelerate and brake, despite having only 5% of the max power available compared to the current powerhouses. But when braking or accelerating hard, they are very easy to overlean. That’s what the increased power prevents.

 

 Based on previous discussions with Evx, he doesn’t grasp this either. So his theories about the reasons for a long braking distance are fundamentally wrong.

 What makes the 20S to have a long braking distance is (in no specific order):

- Wheel diameter. The larger the diameter, the further the rider has to lean. A beefy 2.75-14 (or whatever the S20 tire is) simply is slow to stop because of the geometry involved.

- Top heaviness. When slowing down, the weight above the axle tries to continue forward, and hence to tilt the wheel forward.

- High pedal height requires more lean, again due to geometry. More on this at the end of this post.

- Riding modes are not yet optimized. A softer mode helps the rider to get into a steeper leaning position with less effort, and fine tuning the hard mode in a way that it does the same without feeling soft can help a lot with the braking distance. KS will surely continue to develop the riding modes, as it has before.

On 3/5/2022 at 2:52 AM, Tawpie said:

My geometry is rusty, but I'm having a difficult time understanding this.

The rider’s CoG vector is vertical only when stationary, and when there’s no wind. When accelerating, the vector points a bit backwards. For the rider to be able to stay standing on the pedals, the vector (+wind) must pass through the pedals, otherwise the rider falls.

But I think what’s more important here is the the distance from the pedals to the axle, ie pedal height, since it’s the lever we use to tilt the wheel. When braking, the force of our weight trying to continue forward is applied below the axle, which tilts the wheel backwards. If the pedals are close to the axle, the lever is short and the force is small.

 

Disclaimer: The above was a mish mash of physics, geometry, the thought processes I use to wrap my head around the quiz, and a severe lack in my technical English skills. There are surely things that can be corrected, and there are much more educated people at our forum that can do so. Though I believe it doesn’t disturb the fundamental points I was trying to make.

Edited March 6, 2022 by mrelwood

[Forwardnbak]

42 minutes ago, UniVehje said:

Starting to feel like canceling my preorder. 

Mmmm, well I’m keeping mine for now. 
 

i do think I’ll take another test before deciding for good. I need to know it’s an upgrade to the v11, if range is similar (I get 70Km range on v11) and WW started V11 has more torque to pull up that hill in his video, I'm not too sure it will do as I need If it won’t out perform the v11. 
 

specs I ordered off showed a heap more range and boasted power of first wheel to push 126v etc. 

shall see. 

[Marc Roberts]

Seems most people are reporting it being easy to overpower at low speeds, and Adam’s pedal dipping going up stairs is bothering me. This might be the only thing that concerns me so far.