Kingsong S20/S22 (Confirmed)

[Paradox]

3 minutes ago, Planemo said:

Ok so looks like 50 miles/80Km at 15mph and 0 degC. 

Looks like the last 10 minutes the battery plunged quickly.

[Miko.cz]

I have found his similar (not exactly + opposite direction) way on KS-S18XL, but in October (better temperature, etc.): https://euc.world/tour/603118836307156.
I am satisfied

[Planemo]

17 minutes ago, Paradox said:

Looks like the last 10 minutes the battery plunged quickly.

Yeah that dropped off like a stone! I think anything below 20% would have to be considered 'reserve' for sure!

[Paradox]

OOPs Seba broke his handle.

Edited March 5, 2022 by Paradox

[Planemo]

21 minutes ago, Blunzn said:

marty's overheat hill test was pretty great for a fanless system. strange that in most of the review videos its almost never mentioned ... maybe some pendulum tests comparing it to other wheels would be interesting too  

outsidetemp: 25°

1st stop: ShermanMax - 55°C , Hero - 53°C, S20 - 42°C

2nd stop: ShermanMax - 50°C,  Hero - 45°C,  S20 - 33°C

3rd stop:  ShermanMax - 55°C  , Hero - 50°C  , S20 - 45°C

after the last superstep part of Overheat Hill:  ShermanMax - 58°C , Hero - 57°C , S20 - 57°C

Yes the fanless S20 definitely provides some unusual running temps that we aren't used to seeing with our usual fanned wheels. It seems from Sebas ride that if the S20 isn't being pushed it doesn't break a sweat, showing around 5 DegC in ambients of 0DegC. When pressed though, it seems to average out similar to fanned wheels.

For sure, my MSX and Sherman sit around 40 to 50 DegC, no matter how I'm riding them or in what ambients, so seeing the running temps on Sebas ride seemed really weird!

[Paradox]

Speedy feet did the same thing riding the low battery beeps.  Just cut out.

 

Source video:

https://youtu.be/SwSA_n3UQmc?t=341

 

Edited March 5, 2022 by Paradox

[Tawpie]

21 minutes ago, Planemo said:

Yeah that dropped off like a stone! I think anything below 20% would have to be considered 'reserve' for sure!

Li Ion falls off a cliff when they get low, almost anti-reserve. But S20's cliff is way steeper than what I've seen on my existing wheels!

Edited March 5, 2022 by Tawpie

[Bizra6ot]

Is it a bug on the few last %? Voltage drop is insane from 90V to 45V?

[Funky]

The front "plastic" part should be one hard plastic.. Not empty "shell" like thing. Or better heavy duty rubber compound.

I would use DIY "polymorph, thermoplastic" Plastic that goes soft in boiling water, but gets rock hard in room temperature. <<< Gets broken = easy fix. No need to buy "new" Can make any bumper you want.. That thing is MAZING. Add red coloring = same as original.

Same for "kick stand" that black plastic should be replaced for metal stand. Even when it's get broken it stand on empty steel. So why did they add plastic there.. Simply add thicker steel plate or tubbing there.

Heck you could make "Power Pads" from "polymorph, thermoplastic". Why no one have done it?? I bet it would be cheaper, you just need "Mold" for it.

Edited March 5, 2022 by Funky

[Marc Roberts]

The evX video is a little bit odd when he was so vehemently defending inMotion on the v12 cutouts on Facebook when there were multiple reports, yet I can’t find a single confirmed s20 hard cutout from these preproduction wheels…

[Eucner]

57 minutes ago, Blunzn said:

1st stop: ShermanMax - 55°C , Hero - 53°C, S20 - 42°C

2nd stop: ShermanMax - 50°C,  Hero - 45°C,  S20 - 33°C

3rd stop:  ShermanMax - 55°C  , Hero - 50°C  , S20 - 45°C

after the last superstep part of Overheat Hill:  ShermanMax - 58°C , Hero - 57°C , S20 - 57°C

The indicated temperature depends on were the probe is located. Wheels can have it in different places.

[Seba]

As you may have guessed, the today's range test (https://euc.world/tour/607550710424222) ended with a cutoff. Interestingly, moments before the cut off, the display still showed 1/3 of the battery level. Nevertheless, the beeper began to signal low battery and tiltbacks began to appear. I slowed down so I could get another few hundred meters to a place where my wife could pick me up. Unfortunately, I didn't go far. Despite the low speed and flat surface, the wheel cut off and I landed on the asphalt. The front red plastic handle was destroyed. Nothing happened to me, but my jacket, gloves and hip bag got damaged.

For me it looks like the following factors contributed to this accident. First, a buggy firmware, causing the battery level to be overstated on the display. Second, a low ambient temperature of two degrees Celsius, causing the battery cells to cool down. Third, unexpected rapid drop in battery performance after reaching low battery level. And finally, the rider getting used to how previous King Song wheels behave when the battery level is low.

Now I understand why Inmotion has adopted such conservative conditions for the low battery mode on the V11. They probably found out themselves during testing that the performance of a 4P battery built with M50T cells degrades rapidly below 3.3 volts per cell.

I also know that an accident would have been prevented by an additional alarm in the EUC World app - the low battery voltage alarm. Surely such an alarm will be in the next EUC World update. While I had enabled safety margin alarm set to a conservative value of 20 %, even if the battery voltage dropped below 50 V, safety margin reported by the wheel was still above 40 %. I also had enabled speed limit alarm. Again, speed throttling was active only to 25 km/h and never got lower. For me this is a serious flaw, impacting safety ow this wheel. When voltage dropped below 50 V (1,6 V per cell !), speed throttling was still at 25 km/h and safety margin was at absolutely safe value of 46 %!

Now a few words about range. Well, the result does not impress. Of course it should be noted that the ambient temperature had a significant impact on range. However, three weeks earlier, a full battery of the new King Song 18XL gave me a distance of 66 km (https://euc.world/tour/606913543650330), in a temperature of six degrees Celsius (so not much warmer), but at a higher speed (26 km/h average riding speed vs. 23 km/h today) and in a fairly strong headwind. So today's result is not at all impressive and I will say that I expected to achieve a result similar to Monsieur Flex (note that he started with battery not fully charged). EUC World calculated that today's ride consumed just 1502 Wh. While the rated battery capacity can never be used fully, I would have expected a figure of 300 - 400 Wh more. In the case of the 18XL, a fully charged battery will allow you to actually use 1450 Wh of the 1554 Wh rated capacity.

Edited March 5, 2022 by Seba

[Planemo]

2 minutes ago, Seba said:

So today's result is not at all impressive and I will say that I expected to achieve a result similar to Monsieur Flex (note that he started with battery not fully charged). EUC World calculated that today's ride consumed just 1502 Wh. 

Thats exactly what I was thinking. Many people are suggesting the range is fine but I'm not convinced.

[Tawpie]

1 hour ago, Bizra6ot said:

Is it a bug on the few last %? Voltage drop is insane from 90V to 45V?

unlikely (it would be a minor bug, if anything is wrong at all)... the fact that the wheel cutoff indicates it didn't have enough remaining power to balance—very low voltage is a direct indicator of lack of sufficient power under load.

[Miko.cz]

Im thinking about it more now. OK, Im not so excited now, but I expected worse results.

1. definitively it should not you let cutout and fall. Did you tried to simple turn off-on EUC to remove tiltback and ride a few more meters?
2. maybe display batt lvl is based on some internal calculation of used energy vs theoretical battery max capacity?
3. 18XL have probably double plastic shelter with small space of air isolation between them and more airflow from PCB of hot air to battery - compared to single alloy shelter of S20 which seems to be a big passive heatsink. I think it matters, especially in the end.
4. my own difference of battery summer/winter, same track (38km) is about 20% (KS-16S), but I have also older battery and heavier winter clothes.
5. +13kg of S20 vs 18XL, maybe also heavier clothes?
6. higher avg. speed of XL, good point, I cannot argue
7. last 15km seems to be different terrain profile based on data (more up-downs)

I hope the above arguments are not just my own trying to appologize results.

Edited March 5, 2022 by Miko.cz

[Tawpie]

 your mileage may vary! And there is still more firmware work that needs to be done... fortunately I get to wait until May so for firmware changes, there's plenty of time.

Something between 25 and 60 miles seems to be the range of ranges! Not gonna change the world by any means, but should be more than adequate for me.

[supercurio]

1 hour ago, Seba said:

As you may have guessed, the today's range test (https://euc.world/tour/607550710424222) ended with a cutoff. Interestingly, moments before the cut off, the display still showed 1/3 of the battery level. Nevertheless, the beeper began to signal low battery and tiltbacks began to appear. I slowed down so I could get another few hundred meters to a place where my wife could pick me up. Unfortunately, I didn't go far. Despite the low speed and flat surface, the wheel cut off and I landed on the asphalt. The front red plastic handle was destroyed. Nothing happened to me, but my jacket, gloves and hip bag got damaged.

For me it looks like the following factors contributed to this accident. First, a buggy firmware, causing the battery level to be overstated on the display. Second, a low ambient temperature of two degrees Celsius, causing the battery cells to cool down. Third, unexpected rapid drop in battery performance after reaching low battery level. And finally, the rider getting used to how previous King Song wheels behave when the battery level is low.

Now I understand why Inmotion has adopted such conservative conditions for the low battery mode on the V11. They probably found out themselves during testing that the performance of a 4P battery built with M50T cells degrades rapidly below 3.3 volts per cell.

I also know that an accident would have been prevented by an additional alarm in the EUC World app - the low battery voltage alarm. Surely such an alarm will be in the next EUC World update. While I had enabled safety margin alarm set to a conservative value of 20 %, even if the battery voltage dropped below 50 V, safety margin reported by the wheel was still above 40 %. I also had enabled speed limit alarm. Again, speed throttling was active only to 25 km/h and never got lower. For me this is a serious flaw, impacting safety ow this wheel. When voltage dropped below 50 V (1,6 V per cell !), speed throttling was still at 25 km/h and safety margin was at absolutely safe value of 46 %!

Now a few words about range. Well, the result does not impress. Of course it should be noted that the ambient temperature had a significant impact on range. However, three weeks earlier, a full battery of the new King Song 18XL gave me a distance of 66 km (https://euc.world/tour/606913543650330), in a temperature of six degrees Celsius (so not much warmer), but at a higher speed (26 km/h average riding speed vs. 23 km/h today) and in a fairly strong headwind. So today's result is not at all impressive and I will say that I expected to achieve a result similar to Monsieur Flex (note that he started with battery not fully charged). EUC World calculated that today's ride consumed just 1502 Wh. While the rated battery capacity can never be used fully, I would have expected a figure of 300 - 400 Wh more. In the case of the 18XL, a fully charged battery will allow you to actually use 1450 Wh of the 1554 Wh rated capacity.

Thanks for the test and full report!

Your results are 100% consistent with previous attempts, including Monsieur Flex S20 VS S18 range test with 25km/h tiltback. I think setting a hard speed limit with the tiltback at only 25 saves significant battery compared to oscillating between 25-30.

The mainboard battery percentage is the same as what left most tester stranded. The BMS % is correct however.

Sorry you damaged some gear.

It's clear that the final tiltback must not be ridden on this wheel, at least with that current board and BMS firmware. But it makes sense since the cells can reach around 2.5V as seen in Speedyfeet test, which would permanently dégrade them otherwise.

 

Regarding temperatures, did you check in SoftTuner the BMS an cell temps ? Without several layers of plastic wrapping (case and heatshrink) I expect the S20 cells will get a lot colder than all previous wheels in cold climate. Then if the cell temps were low it would explain missing range as well, according as it should be indicated in their datasheet.

So not surprised because it's very comparable with previous tests, but still wondering where this energy goes. In that case I think maybe cold cells and the wide knobby tire. I'd really like to learn more about the MOSFETs used. If you're allowed to take a look that'd be awesome!

Edited March 5, 2022 by supercurio

[Paul A]

At zero degrees celcius, a heated car sounds better.

[Tawpie]

24 minutes ago, supercurio said:

I think setting a hard speed limit with the tiltback at only 25 saves significant battery compared to oscillating between 25-30.

You're on to something here I do believe.

[Felix]

2 hours ago, Seba said:

And finally, the rider getting used to how previous King Song wheels behave when the battery level is low.

Hi Seba, I have a newish  18XL, never ridden it to 0%.. , so could you please explain what is the expected behavior with Kingsong at low batt? Can I ride it a bit more when its tilting back without it dumping me? 

[Jon Stern]

On 3/4/2022 at 9:35 AM, Paradox said:

Just posted by @Afeez Kay

 

I hope no one left them unattended for 30 seconds, and came back to find them propped up on bricks with the wheels missing 

[Seba]

44 minutes ago, Felix said:

Hi Seba, I have a newish  18XL, never ridden it to 0%.. , so could you please explain what is the expected behavior with Kingsong at low batt? Can I ride it a bit more when its tilting back without it dumping me? 

While it's not recommended to do this regularly (in general it's best not to deeply discharge the battery), 18XL is fully safe to do so when needed (for example when you're on long-distance ride). Here's the last year ride, during which I fully discharged battery several kilometers before my planned end of the tour. To get into a place where my hotel was located I had to restart the wheel several times to get out of low battery tiltback, then final kilometers were ridden in tiltback (battery was fully discharged so restarting the wheel helped only for just few seconds) - https://euc.world/tour/599513067607328. When riding last kilometers I just watched voltage to avoid dropping it substantially below 60 V (3.0 V per cell). The lowest voltage recorded was 58,9 V, what translates into 2,94 V per cell. A value absolutely safe for battery, as every cell can be discharged down to 2,5 V according to the specs. Apparently, you can't do this on S20. Actually, one should avoid riding S20 when battery voltage drops to 99 V.

[Mrd777]

5 hours ago, Miko.cz said:

Exactly, waiting for a note about his brutto weight.
I think his ride and EUCWorld ride record gaved me better info than 75% of all "reviews". As I am not extreme raider.

Yes, I guess.. never went over 20 mph. This test seems painfully slow. 

[Rehab1]

11 minutes ago, Seba said:

Actually, one should avoid riding S20 when battery voltage drops to 99 V.

Sorry about your accident! Hopefully KS reads your excellent, comprehensive summary and rapidly responds by adjusting the firmware. 

[Seba]

6 hours ago, Miko.cz said:

Exactly, waiting for a note about his brutto weight.
I think his ride and EUCWorld ride record gaved me better info than 75% of all "reviews". As I am not extreme raider.

83 kg of rider plus about 6-7 kg of gear (clothes, hip bag and backpack).