Kingsong S20/S22 (Confirmed)

[supercurio]

38 minutes ago, Tawpie said:

I must have missed a memo... there have been board failures (plural)?

13 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

I'm just repeating what is said in the EVX video (timecoded 2:23):

I'm not aware of any documented board failure.
The only reference has been by KingSong themselves with their odd explanation for a some kind of throttling during the first 3 meters in their testing

@evX_Mick says "some notable influencers have already cut-out on this wheel in hard accelerating" as a reason why he did not perform an acceleration test.
It always makes sense to not take unnecessary risk on an unfinished wheel, no doubt about that.

However, there are 2 reported cut-out which are:

• Kuji in December, long prior to the firmware which was oscillating significantly at high speeds
  (IMO OEMs should still have better testing so early testers don't get hurt)
• A french rider who, confused by multiple speed beeps active ended up accelerating beyond the final beep, and overlean
  (IMO there should be only 1 beep type to avoid such accident)

Unless there are more @evX_Mick knows about and we don't, obscuring the count and circumstances beyond "some" without giving context is an unfair tarnishing of reputation for a fine product. If there are more incident, it would be best to talk about them openly IMO, so they can be analyzed, learned from, and checked to make sure it doesn't happen on production wheels later.

And please correct me if I'm wrong!

Edited March 4, 2022 by supercurio

[Tawpie]

1 hour ago, meepmeepmayer said:

I'm just repeating what is said in the EVX video (timecoded 2:23):

Thanks @meepmeepmayer! I'd forgotten about EvX, thought he sold his Sherman and moved on in disgust. But I guess all the action in wheels has brought him back. He missed Commander, Abrams, Hero and V12, that's gotta be painful.

I think what I appreciated most about his take on the S20 was that he found it strangely fun to ride and while he feels it is over engineered and filled with what-might-have-been misses, he was having fun. He seemed to be rediscovering that riding a wheel can be an absolute blast, that there does exist some magic that isn't just the pure adrenaline rush. I hope he catches the bug again... maybe for a new reason.

It would be really nice if he could find a mtb person to set up his suspension for him so he can experience what a properly tuned suspension really offers. From the way he explained his setup I think there is room for an OMG moment. Learning to setup suspension is going to be a task for all of us, but we'd better learn because I think they're here to stay.

Edited March 4, 2022 by Tawpie
oops, forgot he was the release channel for V12!

[rolis]

7 hours ago, supercurio said:

Kuji in December, long prior to the firmware which was oscillating significantly at high speeds
(IMO OEMs should still have better testing so early testers don't get hurt)

On the S20 Telegram group it has been mentioned, that Kuji got to test the concept wheel which was still based on the S18 hardware. Since then, there have been a lot of changes to the board and motor.

[supercurio]

27 minutes ago, rolis said:

On the S20 Telegram group it has been mentioned, that Kuji got to test the concept wheel which was still based on the S18 hardware. Since then, there have been a lot of changes to the board and motor.

Ah yes it's possible. And that one was confirmed to be running a 84V board by Jack in an Interview.

[techyiam]

Isn't this a perfect example of how FUD is created and spread. 

FUD : To incite fear, uncertainty, and doubt in order to instill a negative perception on something.

 If someone levels criticism on a product due to bad firmware, would you not ask this person whether he is using the latest firmware?

EVX in his video, gave an excuse that he wasn't go to perform acceleration tests because he fears his test unit, a pre-production unit from EUCO, would cut out during the tests. He gave a very terse and vague reason for this fear, which was that he is aware of a person who had a cutout on an S20. At no time did he say which version of the S20 that this person was on.

If the S20 in question is not the latest version, which is the pre-production version, like the one he was testing, why would it be relevant. Why would we care. Shouldn't the issues that still remain in the pre-production units are what we are concerned with?

To be convincing and responsible, he should only bring up cut out cases that are relevant, like the ones that involved pre-production units, and not older versions like prototypes, and clearly stating the version of the S20 that had the cut out.

Also, if the S20 in question is a prototype, his fear could have been unfounded. 

Edited March 4, 2022 by techyiam

[Rawnei]

Too much speculation and rumors based on subjective guess work going on IMO, some facts:

-We don't know what mosfets are on the controller, saying they are too weak there is no evidence of that.

-Weak acceleration from standstill, impressions from testers are widely different and most likely very subjective, some people say there is no problem others say it's a huge problem, no conclusive information from KS what kind of tweaks they have done and what it means.

If there are issues of course those need to be brought forth but should be based on facts not guesses or rumors.

Edited March 4, 2022 by Rawnei

[supercurio]

@techyiam I share the same view on evX video, there's some amount of partially veiled FUD.

The reasons behind it might not be nefarious at all tho. As an influencer I'm guessing he has two main goals:

• keep his community safe, aka "be careful, don't accelerate too aggressively on this wheel"
• pressure the manufacturer to do better

And that's all fine.
However, keeping the details obscure has the negative side effect of letting his audience unable to evaluate by themselves the risk.
He's targeting non-specialists in his videos tho, so that's probably the reason why we can see this simplification (which will leave us unsatisfied)

His technical assumptions might be proven wrong later, or not. We'll see.

Edited March 4, 2022 by supercurio

[techyiam]

1 hour ago, supercurio said:

The reasons behind it might not be nefarious at all tho. As an influencer I'm guessing he has two main goals:

• keep his community safe, aka "be careful, don't accelerate too aggressively on this wheel"
• pressure the manufacturer to do better

And that's all fine.
However, keeping the details obscure has the negative side effect of letting his audience unable to evaluate by themselves the risk.
He's targeting non-specialists in his videos tho, so that's probably the reason why we can see this simplification (which will leave us unsatisfied)

My dissonance with what has done is not because he has criticized, or point out issues that he has found with a product. If he find faults and issues, he should be reporting them. For example, he conducted his braking tests and concluded negatively on its performance. That would be consider fair game, and feed back for Kingsong. Otherwise, he would be grouped together with companies' promotional material. 

However, spreading FUD is not constructive. It doesn't help anyone.

If he can clearly point out important issues that are based on facts, and interpreted by someone with technical expertise, that would be constructive. 

What was in his video that convincingly showed or demonstrated that there is an issue with mosfets or cut outs with the pre-production S20? And no one should pretend that weak mosfets or cut outs are not sensitive issues.

He is potentially scaring away potential customers based on what he has speculated, or rumours he heard.

And lastly, how would clearly stating the version of the S20 that had the cut out overwhelm his viewers? 

Don't mistake dumbing down technical explanations for simply making conclusions based on speculation and rumours. 

Edited March 4, 2022 by techyiam

[OldFartRides]

That fellow lost all credibility with his smarmy fake farewell to EUC’s and making vids - I’m the victim here - video.

[rolis]

I have created a group focused on resolving issues of technical nature. Today, we were discussing the s20 and the non-existent “weak mosfet” problem. Feel free to join the discussion!

https://t.me/+KS5mOWU-yvQ4MzY8

[meepmeepmayer]

Ok sorry, guess you can't believe everything they say online.

Looks like there is no board problem?

[fryman]

50 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Ok sorry, guess you can't believe everything they say online.

Looks like there is no board problem?

I have not heard of any board problems.  I have heard a lot of speculations and opinions.

[fryman]

I am disappointed in the results of the braking test.  Has anyone else tested braking?

[Tawpie]

1 hour ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Looks like there is no board problem?

That we know of! V12 didn't have any issues in pre-production either. There's a big difference between hand built prototypes intended for advertising purposes and ones that were built on 2nd shift on a Thursday.

What you don't want to see is problems with the wheels built to make advertising videos... I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

[Tawpie]

10 minutes ago, fryman said:

Has anyone else tested braking?

He's the first I've heard complain about braking, and he's thinking "braking for NYC style".

Remember, he's a talk show host. He has to find and hit a hot button or nobody gets emotional!

Watch where he starts his stops... the ones where he disappears stage left started way late. I would have included these for dramatic effect if my point was "the brakes are insufficient". When he slams on the brakes as he reaches the right side of the building, he overshoots the door by a few feet. Besides, what does a wheel with "good" braking do?

Edited March 4, 2022 by Tawpie

[meepmeepmayer]

42 minutes ago, Tawpie said:

Besides, what does a wheel with "good" braking do?

Nothing worse than the feeling of you leaning back, but the wheel braking sluggishly like an overweight freight train. "Good" braking would mean you lean back slightly and feel like the wheel reacts instanly and easily.

[Rawnei]

1 hour ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Looks like there is no board problem?

We don't know, some people think there might be which warrants more investigation into that, not conclusions regarding a specific component that we don't know the specs of.

[Jon Stern]

I didn't hear evX talk about board failures (as in things blowing up). His hypothesis is the MOSFETs can't provide sufficient current for hard acceleration and braking. It sounded to me like he was talking about "soft" not "hard" failures. Presumably because the firmware senses over-current or MOSFET over-temp and shuts down the motor before the MOSFETs can blow.

His hypothesis that it's the MOSFETs may, or may not be wrong. But there is only the batteries; the wiring; the firmware; the MOSFETs (and their cooling); and the motor. If wheels with similar battery configurations don't have these issues, you can eliminate the batteries.

Edited March 4, 2022 by Jon Stern

[Seba]

As we know, chargers shipped with demo wheels are unable to fully charge their batteries. This is because they are incorrectly adjusted (or not adjusted at all) at the factory. If you have a good multimeter, you can adjust it by yourself:

1. Safety first - disconnect the charger from mains and wait for at least 15 minutes before you go to next steps. This is to discharge any capacitors inside the charger to safe voltage. Don't short-cir
2. Unscrew eight screws at the corners (four on each side).
3. Remove bottom cover.
4. Find trimming potentiometer marked W2 (near the black and red wires of charging cable).
5. Connect multimeter to charging plug (pins 1 and 2 are "+", 4 and 5 are "-").
6. Connect charger to mains. Be careful - from now parts of charger  circuitry are under unsafe voltage!
7. Adjust W2 trimpot so multimeter will show 126.0 V. Small difference or voltage drifting (less 0.1 V) is normal.
8. Disconnect charger from mains, wait until voltage measured by multimeter will drop to zero. This doesn't mean that capacitors are discharged! It only means that output has been turned off.
9. Disconnect multimeter and assemble charger. That's all!

[Blunzn]

25km/h range test in french ... so not really sure what the outcome was  

 

 

[Paul A]

Adjusting chargers that could result in death seems a bit dangerous.

Maybe better to just wait or buy the correct charger.

Anyone competent wouldn't need the instructions.

Anyone needing instructions probably not competent.

[Tawpie]

my high school french says: wheel 100 km, gps 96 km

 

 

(high school days were pre-disco and it was Québécois, not "French" so I'm likely way off!) 

Edited March 4, 2022 by Tawpie

[buffs]

7 minutes ago, Paul A said:

Adjusting chargers that could result in death seems a bit dangerous.

Maybe better to just wait or buy the correct charger.

Anyone competent wouldn't need the instructions.

Anyone needing instructions probably not competent.

One could say that just riding an EUC could result in death and seems a bit dangerous, yet we assume and manage the risks anyway.

i appreciate your concern, but i would rather have the information available to use as i see fit.

[Paradox]

Just posted by @Afeez Kay

 

[Paul A]

French range test.

Rider weight stated as 86kg, but 90kg flashed onto screen.

Middle of February.

Ambient temperature 8 degrees celcius, humid.

Pre-production model.

Only achieved charging to 96% maximum with charger provided.

Attempting to maintain 20 kph, a few climbs and down hills en route.

First 50km, forest trail, remaining charge 63% and 60%, depending on speed.

Then onto city, smooth cycle path.

100km, remaining charge 13% and 7% readout, depending on speed.

Average speed 20kph.

GPS 96km.

Didn't travel much further.

Started at 12.30pm from home, finished ride at 5.30pm.

Thinks maybe another 10 or 15km possible if it was charged to 100%.

It rained and it was cold.

Easier to trolley the wheel backwards, with the handle at the back near body.