Popular Post OldFartRides Posted March 3, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted March 3, 2022 (edited) Someone mentioned soldering iron for direct heating of offending screws w/o collateral damage. Although I have not tried this myself, it sounds like a good idea. Edit: good gawd….my mind these days. I did try this just two or three weeks ago on some of the barrel bolts on the s18 suspension links. It did work well on them. I just woke up. That’s my excuse and I’m sticking to it. Edited March 3, 2022 by OldFartRides 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
techyiam Posted March 3, 2022 Share Posted March 3, 2022 5 minutes ago, Paradox said: Will this be a big issue for flat tire changes or tire replacements? Is having and using a heat gun a big deal or just one more small step for mankind? I suppose you could try instead the pin joint that is right next to it. I don't think breaking the bond would be difficult since the bolt bosses are mostly exposed. But it does take getting used to it. There is more work to be sure, but it is nothing like battling heavily rusted in place fasteners. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rolzi Posted March 3, 2022 Share Posted March 3, 2022 Height adjustment might make it possible to turn the dampener reservoir "inside" the wheel as it increases the space between the suspension arm and the fender. Hopefully somebody tests this before long. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brendan "nog3" Halliday Posted March 3, 2022 Share Posted March 3, 2022 4 minutes ago, Rolzi said: Height adjustment might make it possible to turn the dampener reservoir "inside" the wheel as it increases the space between the suspension arm and the fender. Hopefully somebody tests this before long. Every s20 I've seen so far was already at the highest height adjustment, including our two sample units. The maximum clearance available is already there and the reservoir will not fit. 2 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rolzi Posted March 3, 2022 Share Posted March 3, 2022 3 minutes ago, Brendan "nog3" Halliday said: Every s20 I've seen so far was already at the highest height adjustment, including our two sample units. The maximum clearance available is already there and the reservoir will not fit. Is it how close? Say if you were to notch it one up and only use 2 screws... Or use something to stop the suspension movement before it hits the apex point... Well, I am sure we are going to see all kinds of rollcages for the reservoir soon enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul A Posted March 3, 2022 Share Posted March 3, 2022 On 2/22/2022 at 2:10 AM, Paul A said: Would a soldering iron be better at heating a bolt? Direct, more targeted, conductive heating? Less collateral damage? OFR, glad it worked, but still think KS using such a strong grade of Loctite is daft. A lower strength grade of Loctite would probably suffice and make things a lot easier for everyone. Bearing assemblies that 'slot' into position would also be an improvement. Instead of having to use a blowtorch to heat and expand the surrounding metal to extract the assembly. Maybe have 'filler' material and make the shape of the outer bearing assembly casing a square, hexagon, some straight sided shape, whatever. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tawpie Posted March 3, 2022 Share Posted March 3, 2022 7 hours ago, techyiam said: The is suspension travel adjustment. Therefore, this adjustment should make the suspension travel longer, or shorter. And hence, the height of the unit, as well as pedal height will vary with this. This also means the suspension leverage ratio can be adjusted, since the shock stroke remains the same, while the suspension travel is adjustable. I am surprised that Kingsong warned you about the permanent thread locking compound, but not Afeez and Kevin at E-rides. Hmmm. A left over while they tested different shocks? But still available? 8 hours ago, Brendan "nog3" Halliday said: I've asked KS for the purpose of this and they advised that this makes the 'suspension distance' longer. I'm not 100% familiar with shock lever setups like this but that may lower the height of the unit. They also warned that these bolts are thread locked with permanent (red) thread locker and will require heat to remove. Red thread locker implies they don't really want this messed with. And given it's anchoring the suspension, it's not something we want working its way loose. My guess: not for tire changes, might adjust pedal height but was meant to fit different length shocks. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blunzn Posted March 3, 2022 Share Posted March 3, 2022 (edited) NyloNove S20 pedals and Grizzlapads. i really like the broad velcro strips. KS should ship it with a big roll of velcro do we know the size of the batterycasing ? edit: seems they used the original rear pad supports. on the left side the used velcro only, and on the right side you see a plate covering everything, including the rear supports. edit again: in the comments Grizzla wrote: "Hey Jon, we are working on developing both front and rear bumper upgrades for S20! Will keep you posted on that" and a new Review from Alien Rides: Edited March 3, 2022 by Blunzn 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimm10 Posted March 3, 2022 Share Posted March 3, 2022 I bought my Velcro on Aliexpress here: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/33039358609.html?spm=a2g0o.store_pc_allProduct.8148356.1.341e6de17Ll9Lw 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evX_Mick Posted March 3, 2022 Share Posted March 3, 2022 1 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RagingGrandpa Posted March 3, 2022 Share Posted March 3, 2022 (edited) 43 minutes ago, evX_Mick said: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=et-2FCZgs1Q <English transcript> the king song s20 may be the most anticipated wheel release of the year it's not the latest tech and evs but arguably the most attractive tech when it comes to the latest and self-balancing electric wheels based on spec it's also just middle of the road when it comes to range and speed but this 130 millimeter monster suspension system is its claim to fame and not to mention 126 volts but i have a sneaky feeling it's going to be a bit over engineered similar to other wheels from recent history but thanks to the amazing people over at yuko we'll be able to test my hypothesis and see so here it's the king song s20 so really quick i want to shout out the awesome team over at yuko here in the united states for sponsoring this video and if you want to purchase this wheel today you can go to their site i have a link down below and with my link you get 50 off your wheel purchase so go to that link below if you want to buy this wheel and also shout out to e-rides in the uk for also sponsoring this video awesome dealer over in the uk so go to the link below to make a purchase today now on to the braking tests as a quick note i usually also perform acceleration tests as well but some notable influencers have already cut out on this wheel and hard accelerating so we're gonna kind of skip it on this one this euc has a 3 300 watt hour motor it's a 20 inch diameter tire and it's all fueled by a 2 220 watt hour battery and sadly as you can see here it's taking me far too long and way too much effort to stop this wheel from about 30 miles an hour you can see here i'm hitting the brakes at about the start of this building and aiming to stop by about this glass door and it's taking me far too long also on the s20 here i'm literally sitting off the back and grabbing the handle and the suspension is now in front of my well let's just say sensitive area but this to me really isn't a great sign when it comes to city riding so one of the things i want to talk about is the design so if you haven't already seen this wheel on the market it's one of the most striking wheels on the market they have a really cool slick sort of anime-esque design you'll notice the big suspension on the back obviously that's the big thing this wheel is all about and then you might notice on mine that i don't actually have the stock pads the stock pads were a little bit too cumbersome so if you buy this wheel i would say ditch them they're mediocre at best to kind of get in the way especially if you're not used to a wedge situation i would say whatever you're comfortable with whatever your pads are that you like your third-party pads grab those velcro on one of the other cool things is these come with spike pedals these spike pedals are super nice they're like full spikes so you're really not going to go anywhere especially if you're an off-road rider the other thing you might notice obviously is the battery is all exposed there's no shell on this which i think is awesome i think i personally prefer a more modular sort of mech design and this is getting closer to that although they went a little more anime if you ask me but i pulled that off i want just i want to see it in its raw form i think it's a better design concept probably my favorite feature on this wheel the best amenity if you will is the motor kill switch or the lift sensor or whatever you like to call it if you pull off your seat here i just have a velcro down by the way this right here is the key to all of this so if you want to lift your wheel up up some stairs or put it up onto a platform like this or whatever you're doing over a log or something if you're off-road you just put this down and now the motor is disengaged it's probably the best feature on here i think it's really genius i like the way that they integrate it into the design it's not somewhat ugly button just the magnet and it has to go pretty far the angle is pretty steep before disengages and if you're worried don't worry uh when you you know are riding this can't you know turn off your wheel while you're riding so don't worry about that also right here you'll notice a display when you're stationary it's going to show your battery in this really silly pac-man looking uh icon here to me that's really silly they should have gone with voltage and then when you're going it'll show you your miles per hour or currently it's in kilometers so that's really nice to see while you're going myelin qualm is really like the icon thing like i just would have rather have seen the actual voltage because that's how you really need to tell your battery all right so if you didn't see the trolley handle already in the video here it is it goes up and down and it is not too bad at all especially pushing this thing around like this not a bad situation it's like an msx but much more sturdy and there's no play in the actual handle itself all right so ignoring that trolley handle debacle which king song you should probably fix let's talk about the suspension here so the suspension is different than the ones you've seen in the past it's not an air shock it is a spring which is great especially if you're an off-road person i think it's going to be a fantastic off-road wheel one thing you should note is there is a bit of an air chamber here which is pre-filled you don't need to touch it at all so the only things you need to mess with are the rebound and the sort of the compression which is sort of softer and harder uh feeling for you so the top one is the compression i like to keep it for city riding all the way soft and i keep this as fast as possible on the rebound it's going to change if you're off-road you might want to slow down the rebound a little bit and you might want a harder feel and the last really important thing i've seen a lot of people on the internet messing with the preload here big word of caution if you're a city rider and you're not doing big full send jumps like some of the guys on the west coast don't touch this leave this fully extended the more preload you have the more pressure you're going to need to enact the suspension so you're going to want to leave this like a couple of clicks or like a turn or so pass when it catches the washer up top here but basically what you'll do is grab this and twist it and this will change your preload for you it's like i said if you're like a city rider and you're not doing big off-road jumps leave it fully extended but overall i'm happy with the suspension i think it's really great but you know as far as they go i think for city riding it's going to be a little more hard and bumpy than say like the s18 was so i think if you're strictly a city rider this probably isn't gonna feel as supple as some other ones on the market the lights on here are really cool they're really adjustable so you can point it down or farther out for sort of a more far off distance like me right down like this is a bit silly in the city i think if you're you know going up against ambient light these lights may not be the best on the market i don't think any of them are on the market for what it's worth even my sherman with that being said all of you who don't live in a big city i think it'll be adequate for you but i like that you can adjust it my only qualm once again is with build quality i think these are made of plastic and they're definitely going to break off in a serious crash so you might want to buy a couple of these the last thing is the rim here and the rim i think is pretty cool because it's got its own design and also it seems to be reinforced so we'll see over time if this whole design structure reinforcement really holds up i think it should but you know the real test is when it gets in your hands when you guys buy it you'll prove whether or not this thing can really hold up in all the different conditions you'll end up riding it in so overall i also found the torque lacking on this wheel compared to other 20 inch wheels on the market i know a lot of you out there really love the torque or saying you are but remember this is 126 volts when all the other wheels on the market are 100 and below and i kind of feel like this isn't really wowing me it's not nailing it but on the whole this wheel is full of great amenities versatility well-designed suspension uh reinforced rim a built-in seat and it goes 45 miles an hour imagine that a king song so all of this would be amazing if it weren't for the following list let's just get into it durability questionable range awful speed middle of the road breaking disappointing and of course acceleration which we let's just be honest we should just call this the mosfet issue okay the mosfet issue or really it's the cutout issue some notable influencers and dealers have seen this firsthand and even some have experienced out on the s20 at low speeds and i think this is due to the mosfets being too small it seems by all accounts that they just sort of upcycled the same board and just modified it a bit if you ask me more voltage should overall make it safer faster and full of torque which leads me back to my hypothesis about being over designed i think in typical king song fashion they haven't wowed us even with 126 volts it's just not blowing me away but for all these shortcomings some of which could be solved in a later batch with better firmware i still find myself drawn to the s20 it's doing something that i can't pinpoint so i had an idea i've called upon an old friend but not because the s20 is so fierce but i think the s20 brings me back to the old days of riding when everything was more about fun the ride and how it made you feel vx what's going on man thanks for having me what's up man what's up i'm good how's everything great you know i still write my wheel uh just on a production set some you know camera operators so you know how it goes right yeah doing the thing yeah yeah but um thanks for having me man evx you know how much people have asked for me to be in their videos and i said no but you know come on there's evx baby let's do it feeling better than i ever been cairo in his bag this beat is heaven said back up in my element new wave trunk up in the front i whip an elephant it's all limo tint that's how you move when you the president you asking upstream treat them like my last name disrespecting you just signed a check for a long day appetizer rappers you will never be an entree really you're a condominium and i hope y'all follow this crazy how people with the most money like the common sense batman over got them how i'm over [ __ ] running this game now they finally noticing hear us on tv like damn yup i know that's them just had to pay the dues now i feel like we could never lose but just us against the world now we finally got the tools watch a few years later turn a puddle to a pool we just gotta keep it hot to keep the family living cool put my fam on the island that's off one check but i can't get reckless the next ones i'm investing tasted broke once i don't want no seconds living in the moment but still planning for the future i'm just blessed to live my dreams modern day martin luther i'm a trooper gotta stand for something all your fault for nothing then it's all for nothing real dawg we just getting started like the kickoff five four three two one watch the liftoff oh hello all right deshawn we had a very fun time right yes we did it was yes we did too much fun a lot of times we got too far downtown uptown passed the checkpoint uh what do you think about the s20 you're honest don't lie yeah no i can't listen everybody knows everybody online you know i try to respond to many posts about the whole shock absorption thing i'm i was always i'm always against it i'm i am i am against it but i can honestly say it's a fun wheel the wheel did what i needed it to do though like i i think we were going pretty fast right like i know you said he was beefing on your wheels oh yeah we're hitting over 40. yeah easily easy and i didn't feel like the wheel was like at its max it just kept going which i like you know it's weird because like mickey's like hey let's jump over to jump over some stairs and jump the curve and i'm like uh cause i know on the other wheel i gotta get ready but this thing i just actually just went over the wheel like it was over the curve like it was nothing like he's saying it's like butter yeah dude literally it's insane so i i i get it there's definitely a market i will not spend 3000 on it i like to say it inspires like a a new variety you know it it's funny you mentioned that i like you said like we went past the checkpoint a whole bunch of time because i was having such a blast like i actually had fun riding this wheel again like i didn't have to look i didn't worry about looking down too much at the at the potholes i was too busy just trying to go faster right so i think that's cool i think that's right you know awesome yeah nick i appreciate you uh letting me test out this wheel man again i appreciate you in this cold uh i know it kind of windy yeah it was hot today this would be 60 degrees i don't know what happened yeah um you know but yeah dude this is this this i appreciate it man thank you i had a good time this was fun and uh can't wait to see what she has in store for us yeah man thanks for coming out making it fun absolutely brother absolutely we set it off every time we get involved you know so clearly the s20 is magnetic not for the looks but for the simple fact that it causes me to approach writing in a different way i think often each of us gets stuck in our same patterns of our riding styles whether it be riding in straight lines or carving or simply jumping crazy jumps or gaps but the s20 has been inspiring me to ride differently to write a path less traveled and to just be carefree and have fun again for me it's created a whole new ride out look and that might be the best reason to purchase this wheel especially when we're spoiled for choice in this new eevee era lastly i like to judge who this wheel would be ideal for if you're an experienced rider that doesn't do a lot of off-road i'd say you might want to skip this wheel but if you love off-road and you have awful streets or you own multiple wheels and you need something new and inspiring i'd say this wheel is perfect for you but no matter what i am excited that we have seen such amazing innovation in a single wheeled device this early in the ev era and i predict in the future it'll be a wheel where other companies try to rip off different parts of this and integrate it into their wheels for years to come so that wraps it up for me in this video but if you enjoyed it smash that like button down below and leave a comment and let me know what you like the best about the s20 and how you might use it if you bought it but thank you once again to yuko and e-rides for sponsoring this video and if you want to own this amazingly fun uh concept car euc you can find the links below to your respective dealer and lock in that order today so thank you so much for watching as i always say keep writing never stop (Transcript for those of us who read better than we watch...) The caption "Over Engineered" seems to mean "not as powerful as older simpler EUC's." ...which makes me a slightly-offended engineer Sad to hear "doesn't feel powerful"-type comments from multiple reviewers Edited March 3, 2022 by RagingGrandpa 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
techyiam Posted March 3, 2022 Share Posted March 3, 2022 (edited) 13 hours ago, Tawpie said: Hmmm. A left over while they tested different shocks? But still available? Good logical deduction. Makes sense. But this also means that for those who are knowledgeable and like to tinker, an intriguing possibility opens up for them. 13 hours ago, Tawpie said: Red thread locker implies they don't really want this messed with. And given it's anchoring the suspension, it's not something we want working its way loose. My guess: not for tire changes, might adjust pedal height but was meant to fit different length shocks. However, on the website, www.kingsongs20.com, under Feature, there is a very short video, looks like a gif, that highlights the S20 suspension travel adjustment. I believe, since the outside of the threaded holes are exposed, it shouldn't be that difficult to break the bond. For quick tire changes, there is also the possibility of disconnecting the suspension link at the pin joint? Edited March 4, 2022 by techyiam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tawpie Posted March 3, 2022 Share Posted March 3, 2022 12 minutes ago, techyiam said: For quick tire changes, there is also the possibility of disconnecting the suspension link at the pin joint? Maybe? I sure don't want those fasteners shaking loose though, that would be very bad! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meepmeepmayer Posted March 3, 2022 Share Posted March 3, 2022 (edited) List of downsides according to @evX_Mick: "Disappointing" braking Bad acceleration, or rather Board possibly not up to the task, V12-style (borderline too weak?)!! Durability for a wheel that he says is best ridden offroad... all those parts sticking out Those are a few big drawbacks. I hope they can fix this. Edited March 3, 2022 by meepmeepmayer 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post supercurio Posted March 3, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted March 3, 2022 (edited) 14 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said: Hmmmmmm... "Disappointing" braking Bad acceleration, or Board possibly not up to the task, V12-style (borderline too weak?) Those are a few big drawbacks. I hope they can fix this. Okay then I'll start. What do we know about the MOSFET the S20 uses?https://www.kingsongs20.com/spec lists: Quote TO-247 MOS A total of 12 high voltage MOS Which MOSFET reference are we talking about.@fbhb mentioned HY5012W in another discussion, but that doesn't sound right since it would be a 125V MOSFET on a 126V wheel. Is there a teardown which can show us that? If not I'm sure there can be a few we can ask to take a look, just to make sure we don't have another V12 situation on our hands. I'm keeping in mind that we heard that: some condition could make the board burn, until mitigations were put in place. current wheels were shipped with a 124.5V charger instead of 126V Hopefully nothing behind this, but I'd like to make sure these are no obvious red flags. Edited March 3, 2022 by supercurio 2 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supercurio Posted March 3, 2022 Share Posted March 3, 2022 9 hours ago, techyiam said: You wouldn't happen to be able to add a little more honey to persuade this person to also check the quick wheel removal procedure on the S20? It would be cool if you could. I asked, suggesting making a video about this quick change method would be a worldwide first He didn't bite quite yet given the source is a series of community observations, mixed with a statement somewhere I couldn't find the origin of. This is also because he already asked asked KingSong about these screws in the context of suspension adjustment, and was told to not touch them. Therefore not keen to try without some confidence that it would work. Since there's potential for simplified and faster tire change -including for distributors, he'll ask KingSong about it tho. We'll see if KingSong confirms this quick tire change method then. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tawpie Posted March 3, 2022 Share Posted March 3, 2022 AlienRides said they were going to try some other tires, maybe we just have to wait to see what they come up with? on the topic of waiting... "I want my Oompa Loompa, and I WANT IT NOW" Veruca Salt 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RagingGrandpa Posted March 3, 2022 Share Posted March 3, 2022 (edited) On 3/3/2022 at 5:15 PM, supercurio said: Which MOSFET reference are we talking about.@fbhb mentioned HY5012W in another discussion, but that doesn't sound right since it would be a 125V MOSFET on a 126V wheel. Is there a teardown which can show us that? Very eager for a controller teardown... none are published yet. Just my speculation: It could be the old 12pcs HY5012 footprint, but with FETs connected in series instead of parallel. Great for voltage; bad for current We presume Master is the same idea- cheap FETs in series, to increase the voltage withstand. Just that Master is 24pcs, so we can retain the current limits from the old 100V 12pcs designs. FETs-in-series implies increased resistance, and lots more space on a heatsink... but if there are no suitable single-part solutions, it's all we can do. Edited August 30, 2022 by RagingGrandpa (FETs aren't in series) 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tawpie Posted March 3, 2022 Share Posted March 3, 2022 10 minutes ago, RagingGrandpa said: Very eager for a controller teardown... And I'm hoping they didn't rub the part numbers off the parts. I know that never happens and if it somehow did, it only happens to as-seen-on-TV infomercial products, never on a high value item that has some safety critical aspects to it. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supercurio Posted March 3, 2022 Share Posted March 3, 2022 Or 12x Hunteck HGB039N15M? In TO-263 package, in parallel. Tho I'm not sure if 150V would be considered enough voltage margin for a 126V wheel. At least from @Marty Backe and @eevees's S20 overheat hill test, we know that the extensive heatsink is sufficient to keep temperatures in check. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post meepmeepmayer Posted March 4, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted March 4, 2022 2 hours ago, supercurio said: current wheels were shipped with a 124.5V charger instead of 126V This is just deeply weird lol. They (KS) must know this affects the important initial range tests massively. Also it's something that should come up as soon as they charge their test wheels. How can that even happen? 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meepmeepmayer Posted March 4, 2022 Share Posted March 4, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, RagingGrandpa said: FETs-in-series implies increased resistance, and lots more space on a heatsink... but if there are no suitable single-part solutions, it's all we can do. Let's not pretend there are no suitable parts. There are no cheap suitable parts - Anyways, if the board works, it works. But boards failing under mild circumstances (just some rapid acceleration, that is not even sustained high stress!) is just not a good sign. They might try some firmware mitigation (current limits or whatever), but historically these didn't really help too much. How could they if the underlying hardware is limited. I sure hope this is some bug (hardware or software) they can fix easily. But I wouldn't be surprised if we have a V12-like situation where they might even need a different/heavily modified board in the end. This is their first >84V board after all. Just like Inmotion with the V12. Maybe it's not that easy (or the old approach and cheapo parts don't work). - Such a nice and sweet wheel, KS must get it right. Edited March 4, 2022 by meepmeepmayer 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paradox Posted March 4, 2022 Share Posted March 4, 2022 6 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said: This is their first >84V board after all. Just like Inmotion with the V12. KS has had the benefit of seeing the InMotion problem play out months before they (KS) went into full production. If the S20 has problems similar to V12 then they have nobody to blame but themselves. This would be catastrophic for them. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tawpie Posted March 4, 2022 Share Posted March 4, 2022 1 hour ago, meepmeepmayer said: boards failing under mild circumstances I must have missed a memo... there have been board failures (plural)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meepmeepmayer Posted March 4, 2022 Share Posted March 4, 2022 (edited) 27 minutes ago, Tawpie said: I must have missed a memo... there have been board failures (plural)? I'm just repeating what is said in the EVX video (timecoded 2:23, also check 10:14 for Mick's explanation): Edited March 4, 2022 by meepmeepmayer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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