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Kingsong S20/S22 (Confirmed)


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8 minutes ago, yoos said:

It's hilarious how Kingsong designs slow wheels that look like Ferraris while Gotway makes crazy fast wheels with the looks of soviet diesel locomotives. [Seriously though, the S20 is probably fast enough for most]

to me even s18 is fast enough, also the range was close to enough but i need the torque for climbing... now I have MSP HT and I never make it beep and I never used the full 1800w in one day, but I like to accelerate hard when I start moving

I really want to see this s20 but it's overkill for me, also 2k is what I wanna spend for a wheel and no more, and my 26kg of MSP already feel like a bit too much... so I'm more hyped over the rumored s16

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3 minutes ago, yoos said:

It's hilarious how Kingsong designs slow wheels that look like Ferraris while Gotway makes crazy fast wheels with the looks of soviet diesel locomotives. [Seriously though, the S20 is probably fast enough for most]

Yeah that is pretty funny. And one of the fastest looks like a tank...

Id take a fast ugly wheel over a cool slow one any day tho. TBH I actually really like how most of the gotways look, and the verterans look cool too. I am pretty sure that the s20 will be the coolest looking wheel though.

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24 minutes ago, UniVehje said:

Am I mistaken or is there actually real life noticeable power difference with higher voltage everything else staying equal?

Apart from the higher top speed due to higher critical rpm for the motor there are a few benefits:

One benefit is lower losses during (power) transmission: heat losses in cables depend on current (W = I2R). So, if you charge at, say 1Ampere, the 126V system will charge faster (at a rate of 126W) compared to a lower voltage one, while heat losses would still be the same (assuming same wiring). Since fast charging is sometimes limited by the thin charging connectors, the higher voltage helps. [However, simply using beefier charging wires would be an easier solution]. Another benefit is that voltage sag is reduced somewhat. Typically, voltage sag in a cell is proportional to current. If you work with higher voltage, then you need lower current to produce the same power. Hence, voltage sag is less, relatively speaking. 

However, I think that there are considerable disadvantages too: Most importantly, higher voltage require more cells in series in a battery. This means balancing is more difficult and long and there are more chances for a bad cell eventually appearing. The longer a chain the higher the chance for a link to break. Thus, it is more difficult/expensive to ensure proper quality/capacity/longevity for a 126V pack. This is partially solved by strict quality control, test running packs and sourcing good cells. 

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Lets not have another discussion about fast vs slow, it's been discussed to death and obviously there are many different preferences and opinions about speeds and there is no point wishing for arbitrary limits just because you have a personal preference, options are positive. 😊

Personally I'm hoping for at least 60kmh wheel with good torque, range, waterproofing and suspension that could do everything from ride in the rain, off-road and hit the Skatepark, that'd be a dream wheel.

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4 minutes ago, Rawnei said:

Personally I'm hoping for at least 60kmh wheel with good torque, range, waterproofing and suspension that could do everything from ride in the rain, off-road and hit the Skatepark, that'd be a dream wheel.

If they could also keep it under 30kg and make a convenient carry handle it would just be perfect!

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2 minutes ago, yoos said:

If they could also keep it under 30kg and make a convenient carry handle it would just be perfect!

Lets hope this time the "off road" wheel can also fit off road tires. (I assume it will if they are calling it a 20" wheel)

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1 hour ago, UniVehje said:

Is there something specific on 126V that is so complicated that you'd have to first practice with 100V? To me it sounds like just a decision of what the benefit is vs. cost of beefier components required.

I wouldn't know about anything special with 126V as opposed to lower voltages. Gotway tried it (with the Nik I believe). *speculation* Probably with too small components, and they gave up on it because they couldn't get it to work with the small components. If the S20 is 126V, I expect KS to use the right, beefy components. *end speculation*

Maybe it's just the right time for 126V. KS usually put a bit more engineering effort into their wheels, so maybe they just said "let's do this now" and put in the effort.

1 hour ago, UniVehje said:

Unless the higher voltage can actually be translated to some other benefit

You can have more motor windings for more torque, and the higher voltage allows you to keep the max speed you would usually lose from more windings without a voltage increase.

It seems the idea behind higher voltages is to keep "enough" torque without the wheel becoming too "slow" then (whatever "enough" and "slow" means for the manufacturer). For example, there's the RS HT and HS. With a voltage increase, you could have a wheel with the torque of the HT and the max speed of the HS, instead of having to choose between the two.

Apart from the lost flexibility of the battery configurations and a bit higher component costs, there really aren't any downsides to higher voltages, so why not:)

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Kingsong are trying to alleviate cut out. They have said that many times before. I think that's the motivation behind a higher voltage. I imagine they will treat the wheel like a lower voltage for everything, but have the extra voltage purely for headroom.

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Hey on the official King song sight when you click specs or info it wants a password… does anyone know that password? And will that show the specs? I put a pre order would it be that number possibly or the order number?? This wheel is gonna blow my socks off if it can just boost the speed/voltage/battery … looks like the suspension is even better as well 

 

thanks for your time guys! 

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10 hours ago, PourUC said:

I imagine they will treat the wheel like a lower voltage for everything, but have the extra voltage purely for headroom.

Interesting idea. But if they go through the trouble of making the system work with 126V, why would they go through even more trouble to build some kind of a step down voltage converter which besides creating heat itself would increase the heat of the whole system? Why not run at max voltage all the time? What would the lower voltage benefit? It doesn’t when the battery voltage is getting lower as the battery depletes either.

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1 hour ago, TheFoss0331 said:

Hey on the official King song sight when you click specs or info it wants a password… does anyone know that password?

It’s probably a company intranet password or something. I’m sure it won’t get leaked before the launch goes public.

 

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3 hours ago, mrelwood said:

Interesting idea. But if they go through the trouble of making the system work with 126V, why would they go through even more trouble to build some kind of a step down voltage converter which besides creating heat itself would increase the heat of the whole system? Why not run at max voltage all the time? What would the lower voltage benefit? It doesn’t when the battery voltage is getting lower as the battery depletes either.

I didn't mean they would use a 126v battery setup and then use a transformer to lower the voltage.

I mean they are not using the 126v purely for more performance. When 100v wheels came out, I don't believe anyones goal was to lower the amperage used, rather to keep the same amperage but to chase faster speeds at that amperage.

I believe Kingsong will artificially limit the top speed so that it's similar to that of a 100v wheel, thus lowering the overall ampdraw because ofc it's still 126v (or whatever they go with). They will keep the extra headroom this voltage allows to be used against cutouts and for hill climbing I imagine. Where as if Begode put out a 126v wheel, they would increase the speed ceiling and cutout would still be possible.

 

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52 minutes ago, PourUC said:

I didn't mean they would use a 126v battery setup and then use a transformer to lower the voltage.

I mean they are not using the 126v purely for more performance. When 100v wheels came out, I don't believe anyones goal was to lower the amperage used, rather to keep the same amperage but to chase faster speeds at that amperage.

I believe Kingsong will artificially limit the top speed so that it's similar to that of a 100v wheel, thus lowering the overall ampdraw because ofc it's still 126v (or whatever they go with). They will keep the extra headroom this voltage allows to be used against cutouts and for hill climbing I imagine. Where as if Begode put out a 126v wheel, they would increase the speed ceiling and cutout would still be possible.

 

All wheels have a safety margin already, it's just a matter what happens when you reach it, alarms or tiltback is what you can do, so what you are describing is already a standard feature on existing wheels.

Would not make sense to have more than 20-30% margin that would just lower the speed without much gain and make the wheel less attractive to the market overall.

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22 minutes ago, Rawnei said:

All wheels have a safety margin already, it's just a matter what happens when you reach it, alarms or tiltback is what you can do, so what you are describing is already a standard feature on existing wheels.

Would not make sense to have more than 20-30% margin that would just lower the speed without much gain and make the wheel less attractive to the market overall.

Not if the goal is to eliminate cutout.

The reality is, cut outs still happen despite there being tilt back. The point of this would be so you can ride at the edge of the wheels performance, which is still within a good performance level and never cutout.

Hut a pot hole, no cutout. Break really hard, no cutout. reshuffle your feet and put one too far forward, no cutout.

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6 minutes ago, PourUC said:

Not if the goal is to eliminate cutout.

The reality is, cut outs still happen despite there being tilt back. The point of this would be so you can ride at the edge of the wheels performance, which is still within a good performance level and never cutout.

Hut a pot hole, no cutout. Break really hard, no cutout. reshuffle your feet and put one too far forward, no cutout.

Cutouts happen because people overpower their wheels, you can overpower a tilt-back as well, the best way to make a overlean less likely to happen is to increase the potential speed and power of the wheel making it less likely that someone would accidentally go beyond what it's designed for but you can never prevent people from completely pushing beyond what they are supposed to if they have that intent it's the nature of these devices (run out of power = fall).

And by the way many people prefer an alarm instead of having a tilt-back, if you ride at higher speed it can be a really bad experience to get a sudden tilt-back, more audible alerts is a much better improvement that wheels need.

I also think this is a discussion for another topic (several exists already) because it's not relevant specifically to the S20.

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35 minutes ago, Rawnei said:

All wheels have a safety margin already, it's just a matter what happens when you reach it, alarms or tiltback is what you can do, so what you are describing is already a standard feature on existing wheels.

Would not make sense to have more than 20-30% margin that would just lower the speed without much gain and make the wheel less attractive to the market overall.

As you yap into higher speeds you need bigger safety margin. You cannot look at this as %. This is due to double speed take x4 energy. So any spikes you have on hitting an obstacle would require more power to deal with it. 5 or 10% is only a relative number not exponential as the energy step up. 

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3 minutes ago, Unventor said:

As you yap into higher speeds you need bigger safety margin. You cannot look at this as %. This is due to double speed take x4 energy. So any spikes you have on hitting an obstacle would require more power to deal with it. 5 or 10% is only a relative number not exponential as the energy step up. 

Semantics, I'm sure the engineers at Begode, Inmotion, Kingsong and LeakerKim are aware of these things.

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5 minutes ago, Rawnei said:

Semantics, I'm sure the engineers at Begode, Inmotion, Kingsong and LeakerKim are aware of these things.

Do you say this with ignorance to EUC safety records?

Kingsong seem to be the leaders in safety in regards to cutouts and how they manage them.

Begode don't really seem to care historically and operate as you said "This is our top speed, apply too much pressure at your own peril"

All that is being said here is that the 126v may not be for 'MORE SPEED' and is instead there to create a better buffer to prevent cutouts. Your reaction is basically to ignore everything up till now for some reason.

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I'm all for safe margin and cutoff prevention. 

BUT

There's not only the cutoff due to overpowering the whell, sadly having cutout for Mobo failure/burn is also a thing... it's rare but it happened, and supposedly if you plan to stick to your wheel for as long as it works, the day it will stop working it'll do so by giving up on you while you are riding, with any consequence possible. This is in my opinion the one and only weak point of our beloved eucs, and needs to be addressed. 

Don't know how they could do it though... maybe using 2 mobos, 1 to take control in case the other one fails? 

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Just now, Rotan said:

I'm all for safe margin and cutoff prevention. 

BUT

There's not only the cutoff due to overpowering the whell, sadly having cutout for Mobo failure/burn is also a thing... it's rare but it happened, and supposedly if you plan to stick to your wheel for as long as it works, the day it will stop working it'll do so by giving up on you while you are riding, with any consequence possible. This is in my opinion the one and only weak point of our beloved eucs, and needs to be addressed. 

Don't know how they could do it though... maybe using 2 mobos, 1 to take control in case the other one fails? 

This normally happens because you need a higher amperage when riding up gradients or because your battery sags voltage, so amperage is increased to maintain power. This leads to capacitors/mosfets having a bad day.

Having a higher voltage should allow lower amperages in regular use meaning that you have a mitigated risk of a mobo blowing.

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18 minutes ago, PourUC said:

 

Do you say this with ignorance to EUC safety records?

Kingsong seem to be the leaders in safety in regards to cutouts and how they manage them.

Begode don't really seem to care historically and operate as you said "This is our top speed, apply too much pressure at your own peril"

All that is being said here is that the 126v may not be for 'MORE SPEED' and is instead there to create a better buffer to prevent cutouts. Your reaction is basically to ignore everything up till now for some reason.

I think you are wearing brand selective goggles.

KingSong wheels have a history of problems specifically the S18 has stopped functioning in unexpected situations which is well recorded information and the 16x is easy to overpower.

Begode wheels have a great safety margin but their beepers should be much louder to be heard over wind.

Inmotion V11 same problem there should have a louder beeper to be heard over wind.

Not sure what you think I'm ignoring, higher specs = more safety it's really that simple.

Edit: I forgot Veteran Sherman, it's beeper is very audible which is great and when you are riding near 70kmh and trigger the (slow!) speed alert you are already very aware of what you are doing and it's not like you're gonna aggressively push the wheel at those speeds.

Edited by Rawnei
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Just now, Rawnei said:

I think you are wearing brand selective goggles.

KingSong wheels have a history of problems specifically the S18 has stopped functioning in unexpected situations which is well recorded information and the 16x is easy to overpower.

Begode wheels have a great safety margin but their beepers should be much louder to be heard over wind.

Inmotion V11 same problem there should have a louder beeper to be heard over wind.

Not sure what you think I'm ignoring, higher specs = more safety it's really that simple.

1) Regardless of brand perception. Kingsong have safety margin baked into their speed alerts and tilt back. Begode for example don't. They instead have a hard fixed speed tiltback. This means you could potentially overpower your wheel at a lower speed and never hit tilt back.

2) Higher specs are bought by people who want to go faster. If you are going faster you don't have an increased safety net.

3) This is higher specs where the safety part matters. With 100v specs elsewhere. If what I am saying is what they do, it's literally more safe than putting the speed right against the max power threshold.

Please can you actually step down from this wierd position you have taken. I am not saying anything crazy.

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1 minute ago, PourUC said:

Please can you actually step down from this wierd position you have taken. I am not saying anything crazy.

But you are, you are saying KS should magically invent new safety mechanisms that we don't already have and you argue for less options, I mean if they have a tilt-back that the user can select which speed they want it to tilt-back or disable it completely if they want, that would be a great option no? Same thing if the wheel can do 100kmh you don't personally have to go that fast but you will have plenty of margin for your personal style of riding.

The whole "I don't need this so you don't either" type of argumentation isn't constructive.

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  • mrelwood changed the title to Kingsong S20/S22 (Confirmed)
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