Kingsong S20/S22 (Confirmed)

[Freestyler]

The modified monster v3 (sport) has 6 packs of 18650ga sanyo and 1 pack samsung 50e (or g, not sure).

I was told that the "stronger" pack might help alleviate the stress from the "weakest" packs.

I don't imagine it will be good in the long term, since the cells age at a different rate.

My brain hurts when trying to simulate in my head how the whole thing works. 

 

Edited April 15, 2022 by Freestyler

[techyiam]

For simplicity sake, can we not disable regen, and add a Schottky diode to each pack so that the packs with higher voltages cannot charge packs with lower voltages?

 

[chanman]

Something along those lines could be done, ignoring that disabling regen also disables the ability to brake for the moment. What I think you see then is the 40T pack initially providing most of the current, but it will drop in voltage quicker, so more current will be pulled from 50E pack to compensate.

This seems like it could be the worst of both worlds in performance actually, the range is reduced by the 40Ts reduced capacity, but the 50Es needing to pull their own weight in current demand means the 40Ts increased power output isn't benefitted from.

 

(/end amateur_theorizing)

[goatman]

ive ran different battery packs paralleled together with a 10amp fuse in between. a 25r pack and panasonic pd pack, purposely riding really hard (7amps/cell) about 3500 watts and bursts of 1500 watt regen for about 5 minutes doing laps up and down a hill full throttle/full regen. i couldnt blow the fuse and the pack voltages had only drifted about 1.5v apart which equalized after a  couple minutes at rest. the 40T will take a big capacity loss at cooler temperatures. summer i use 20ah and winter i use 30ah for the same trips. theyre good if youre always sunny and 75 or warmer but year round riding in cooler climates, they will be a disappointment.

[FunTech4Real]

To everyone who is thinking using 40T cells is bad in any way: ITS NOT. Its a huge win for us. You will likely get more usable range from the 40T cells. The reason EUC manufacturers have been using high capacity cells is because they are cheaper and for marketing - because they can show a higher watt hour number and 99% of people will think that is better, but its actually far worse. I can't ride any of my unicycles with less than 40% battery left without great fear of easily overpowering them (granted I'm huge and ride in an area with extreme hills - also all my unicycles have crappy high capacity cells - V11, S18, RS19). This will not be the case with high discharge cells - they can still put out great power even when they have very little charge remaining. The high discharge cells are also much safer in regards to preventing battery fires and in regards to preventing cut outs on the wheel. They can also deliver far more power... if the S20 controller and motor can handle it, then KingSong will likely increase the power output. 

Side note: I'm Morgan Yarbrough (the guy on Facebook who got ewheels to post this)

Edited April 15, 2022 by sevin7

[Chriull]

8 minutes ago, chanman said:

What I think you see then is the 40T pack initially providing most of the current, but it will drop in voltage quicker, so more current will be pulled from 50E pack to compensate.

Exactly - most current is maybe exaggerated. The currents will be divided according to the internal resistance. The different drawn charge will result in different "internal voltages".

These will be equalized after the burden situation, i.e. the m50t will recharchge the 40t again.

8 minutes ago, chanman said:

This seems like it could be the worst of both worlds in performance actually, the range is reduced by the 40Ts reduced capacity, but the 50Es needing to pull their own weight in current demand means the 40Ts increased power output isn't benefitted from.

No. One gets part of the 40t peak performance and part of the m50t range. The 40t could get shorter lifespan as it has many "microcycles" of providing peak charge and beeing recharged again?

... It's always the weakest who gets hit most ...

[chanman]

6 minutes ago, Chriull said:

No. One gets part of the 40t peak performance and part of the m50t range. The 40t could get shorter lifespan as it has many "microcycles" of providing peak charge and beeing recharged again?

We were discussing a hypothetical where the high capacity was not recharging the 40t during discharge through the use of a diode or otherwise, which I think my theory holds for. If you just connected them normally then I agree with that.

Edited April 15, 2022 by chanman

[goatman]

microcycling shouldnt effect the 40t from what ive seen during testing.

to continuously discharge and charge the cell with no break inbetween cycles,

it showed almost no capacity loss cycle after cycle, it actually likes it 

give a 2 or 30 minute break inbetween charge/discharge cycles it suffers capacity loss

then if you do a capacity test discharge to the cells/battery packs every 100 charge cycles it restores a good % of capacity that was lost and straightens out the discharge curve of the cell.

like giving a car a tune up

[techyiam]

2 minutes ago, goatman said:

if you do a capacity test discharge to the cells/battery packs every 100 charge cycles it restores a good % of capacity

What current (%C) would you use when you do the capacity test discharge to restore capacity? 

[goatman]

58 minutes ago, techyiam said:

What current (%C) would you use when you do the capacity test discharge to restore capacity? 

0.8 amp like the data sheet, heres the test data

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=106550&start=25#p1604360

some cells like the p42a like to "self heal" when you give them a break like in this thread

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=107573&hilit=p42a+cycle+test&start=25#p1616035

Edited April 15, 2022 by goatman

[irmatt]

This battery topic is quite large, but the 40T is most likely an eWheels exclusive. 

If so it will only effect eWheels clients.

 

 

[Cress]

Reference @supercurioposting about mixing battery models, above.   About 30 years ago I used a 'battery bank,' diodes to combine different batteries, building an eBike.  The 'battery bank' was an expensive way to learn that voltage/current discharge curves from battery Manufacturers are not as important as sustained high current and current above published battery discharge curves.  Battery solutions are better 30 years later but we're distracted by EUC marketing for high watt-hour capacity cells.

@U-Stridedid Kingsong a favor by testing the S20, likely over-heated cells in both battery packs by rapid acceleration/braking, then breaking a capacitor in the voltage-doubling circuit, followed by firmware/fuse failure.  The fire might help  eWheels adjust Manufacturers' understanding of EUC batteries and get everyone to focus on real-world data. I hope UStride isn't offended, I wish Manufacturers would make UStride work even harder and find something other than exploding batteries.

[DragonFZ]

Sorry if this question have already been addressed. From a stand still start, how does the S20/22 compare to the V11?

[Paul A]

Member Sevin's post regarding 40T higher discharge batteries, having greater usable capacity, safer, sounds too good to be true.  

Although at higher cost.

Would be helpful if eWheels would publicly state their reasoning/endorsement for the choice of 40T.

 

Is there a specific measurement for usable capacity?  

This would be more meaningful than a higher watt hour number for purposes of marketing.

[Wolverine]

2 hours ago, DragonFZ said:

Sorry if this question have already been addressed. From a stand still start, how does the S20/22 compare to the V11?

I've watched videos of the most popular youtubers about Kingsong S20/S22, and they often have a comparison between S20/S22 and V11.

V11 and S20/S22 have one thing in common and that is a suspension. However, all the other features are very different. V11 is a commuter wheel but the S20/S22 is aimed to be an off-road wheel. The V11 is more like a hybrid that you can drive on both asphalt and medium off-road. In the case of the V11, the rider can dial the suspension exactly as one wishes, however, the S20/S22 cannot do this. With the V11 Inmotion app, you can make the unicycle character just right for you. However, this cannot be done with the S20/S22. Riding a V11 is so enjoyable as if you were riding on a cloud. At the same time the S20/S22 constantly reminds you that you have a suspension machine under you. S20/S22 is zippier and has probably more power. With the S20/S22 you can ride hard off-road if you wish so, but the V11 can't do that.

These are two completely different unicycles. Both have their pros and cons. Which one you like depends on your preferences.

[Brendan "nog3" Halliday]

17 hours ago, irmatt said:

This battery topic is quite large, but the 40T is most likely an eWheels exclusive. 

If so it will only effect eWheels clients.

 

 

Before you all get excited, eWheels has several units from KS with different battery packs and the 40T change is likely to be eWheels only. They are large enough to be able to request this for their own units, but this does not usually extend to the whole production setup.

I've requested clarification from our KS rep, but previous questions about eWheels' molicel s18 version indicated this was a limited run for them only also.

 

Edit: Confirmed, this is an ewheels only special order.

Edited April 16, 2022 by Brendan "nog3" Halliday
Update

[Tawpie]

7 hours ago, Brendan "nog3" Halliday said:

Confirmed, this is an ewheels only special order.

And that's a start! It means that KS will demonstrate their ability to scale manufacturing of production packs with "other" cells and that ability opens up the possibility for other distributors. It'll be an internal part number at least, making it a SKU is the next logical step (especially with the obligatory upcharge)!

[sway2127]

7 hours ago, Brendan "nog3" Halliday said:

Before you all get excited, eWheels has several units from KS with different battery packs and the 40T change is likely to be eWheels only. They are large enough to be able to request this for their own units, but this does not usually extend to the whole production setup.

I've requested clarification from our KS rep, but previous questions about eWheels' molicel s18 version indicated this was a limited run for them only also.

 

Edit: Confirmed, this is an ewheels only special order.

Hmm… now the question is is it worth canceling a pre-order with another US distributor to get the ewheels version. Based on the discussion above I dont THINK so?? Need more solid details on price / availability

[Paul A]

The 40T battery is better and safer then?

[Rollin-on-1]

3 minutes ago, Paul A said:

The 40T battery is better and safer then?

Less likely to stress them by riding hard. But fewer charge cycles than the LG M50LT iirc.  

[yoos]

11 hours ago, Rollin-on-1 said:

But fewer charge cycles than the LG M50LT iirc.

The battery lifetime seems not to be the bottleneck for most EUC use cases (i.e. other failures throughout the machine happen earlier) so this seems currently of little importance [the reduced range on a single charge is more crucial]. I would even speculate that under aggressive riding the LG M50LT might degrade quicker because it handles stress damage from high currents worse than high-discharge cells. For relaxed long-distance commutes high-energy-density cells might be preferable but for intense stop-and-go traffic, off-road and tricks I'd prefer the 40T.

Edited April 17, 2022 by yoos

[Forwardnbak]

Saw on a FB post, JULY stated as the date they get stock production models at some store. 
I’ll see if I see it again and post maybe. 

[MrP-MrF]

Some guy at esprit-roue (french forum) talked about Samsung INR21700-50S 5000mAh - 35A

It should be nice. Same capacity, higher CDR !

[NErider]

On 4/16/2022 at 2:48 AM, Wolverine said:

I've watched videos of the most popular youtubers about Kingsong S20/S22, and they often have a comparison between S20/S22 and V11.

V11 and S20/S22 have one thing in common and that is a suspension. However, all the other features are very different. V11 is a commuter wheel but the S20/S22 is aimed to be an off-road wheel. The V11 is more like a hybrid that you can drive on both asphalt and medium off-road. In the case of the V11, the rider can dial the suspension exactly as one wishes, however, the S20/S22 cannot do this. With the V11 Inmotion app, you can make the unicycle character just right for you. However, this cannot be done with the S20/S22. Riding a V11 is so enjoyable as if you were riding on a cloud. At the same time the S20/S22 constantly reminds you that you have a suspension machine under you. S20/S22 is zippier and has probably more power. With the S20/S22 you can ride hard off-road if you wish so, but the V11 can't do that.

These are two completely different unicycles. Both have their pros and cons. Which one you like depends on your preferences.

What do you mean the S22 suspension can not be adjusted? It has an oil filled shock with a compression and rebound adjuster as well as a replaceable coil spring with a threaded shock body for adjusting preload, and multiple connection points of the suspension linkage to change the geometry and overall height. 

The V11 has...an air shock only.

[Forwardnbak]

16 minutes ago, NErider said:

What do you mean the S22 suspension can not be adjusted? It has an oil filled shock with a compression and rebound adjuster as well as a replaceable coil spring with a threaded shock body for adjusting preload, and multiple connection points of the suspension linkage to change the geometry and overall height. 

Cough…

there is also the SHOCK that comes from waiting so long, this is also being adjusted.

cough again.