Kingsong S20/S22 (Confirmed)

[Tawpie]

Sooooooo. Does it really matter?

Does anyone really take a 3200USD wheel that they personally paid for up a 50° rock face that they know they can't get down except by sliding on their rear end (and that's without trying to manage a 70 lb wheel)? How much of a difference is this going to make in your riding? Really, the stuff you actually do, not the riding you see on TV...

I get it. I too need everything else to look a little worse in my mind, it helps me feel better about my purchasing choices. Smug self congratulation that at least I had the wisdom not to choose that wheel does help sometimes. But is it really relevant to harp on the fact that a Tesla Plaid can beat my Mazda 3 off the line? Or go on and on about how a Tesla Plaid is a POS because you can't load 3/4 ton of manure in the boot?

"mines-better-than-yours-is" Maybe, probably it is. Thank you for pointing that out.

Give the S20/22 fanbois a break. It was a terrific launch until we saw precisely what fire in a metal box looks like. They're already anxious enough.

 

(I still have my pre-order, and I'm shopping a lighter spring because I run around in the shower to get wet and want to use as much of the suspension as is available. Torque will not be a problem for me. Speed is already far in excess of my comfort zone. It still looks spot on for my riding. neener neener)

[Rawnei]

4 minutes ago, Tawpie said:

Sooooooo. Does it really matter?

Does anyone really take a 3200USD wheel that they personally paid for up a 50° rock face that they know they can't get down except by sliding on their rear end (and that's without trying to manage a 70 lb wheel)? How much of a difference is this going to make in your riding? Really, the stuff you actually do, not the riding you see on TV...

It's most likely not the norm but personally I've done some very steep and long off-road climbs, something which I like to do from time to time, sometimes it's a solo challenge sometimes it's a group ride challenge, don't always have to go down the same slope, so that considered it's actually one aspect I consider when looking at a new wheel now and I'm also a bit worried about how the S22 would handle that but it's impossible to draw any conclusions with all the conflicting information and subjective opinions right now.

[Ginger On Wheels]

On 4/8/2022 at 8:46 PM, techyiam said:

@Ginger On Wheels did say in his video that he felt his demo wheel S22 was a bit more powerful than his Sherman, as he was going up the incline. However, Hsiang said in his S20 vs Sherman video, that he felt his Sherman has a slight edge over his demo wheel KS S20B below 20 mph. 

I think to be clear and convincing, the easiest way to show the difference is to have a S22 and a KS S20B go up the same incline by the same rider back to back.

My gut feeling tells me that, for those who are expecting the S22 to outperform the RS19, EX-N, or better Begode wheels at the low end are going to be disappointed for the current batch. 

I think your gut feeling is right. It just doesn't compare to Begode wheels. The effort required to get the wheel moving is one portion, it just doesn't respond to the lean as fast as Begode wheels do. The other aspect between all the disagreement in this thread, I think, is the rider weight. I think people are underestimating the impact that has when you're riding these things. Begode reps in those videos doing insane climbs are probably 5'5" 150lbs. Adam comes in around 5'9" 165 I think. I'm 6'2" 220lbs. My RSHT simply floats up most hills, but on the S22 I need to sort of feather the weight on the end of my toes because I can feel that I'm near the limits of what the wheel can do. If you're getting the S22 strictly for hill climbs, wait for the Master or buy an RSHT. That being said, the S22 is a great all-around wheel. Super comfortable cruiser, very nimble with the high pedals, stability at speed is good with that huge tire, suspension gives me super powers in confidence when doing dumb things I shouldn't do, and it can really rip though off-road areas assuming there aren't steep sections you're needing to accelerate up. I'd bet that if someone put me on a trail and chip timed me with my RSHT and then on the S22 that I would be faster on the S22 simply because of the suspension, tire, and pedal height. It eats big bumps for breakfast off-road. Really my only complaint is that off the line it just feels like it needs more power. It feels software limited to an unnecessary degree. With the specs it's got it seems like it should be able to rip so hard that the tire looses traction off-road, but for me that's just not the case. 

[Rawnei]

2 minutes ago, Ginger On Wheels said:

I think your gut feeling is right. It just doesn't compare to Begode wheels. The effort required to get the wheel moving is one portion, it just doesn't respond to the lean as fast as Begode wheels do.

See this type of statement makes me super skeptical, how much did you play around with configuring the geometry and finding the right sag for you? The motor will just respond do your leans otherwise you would just face-plant, now if your pedals are above the axle yeah it's gonna be tougher, but it's adjustable on the S22 so you can get it right.

[Tawpie]

8 minutes ago, Ginger On Wheels said:

It just doesn't compare to Begode wheels. … Really my only complaint is that off the line it just feels like it needs more power. It feels software limited to an unnecessary degree. With the specs it's got it seems like it should be able to rip so hard that the tire looses traction off-road, but for me that's just not the case.

Thank you... well said. This is to me the meat of it! It's not a Begode wheel, the specs teased us into thinking perhaps it could have been… but it's a KS wheel—and they have a track record of conservative software that purposely limits performance.

It's actually not a high performance Begode wheel.

[fryman]

1 hour ago, Paul A said:

https://www.livescience.com/36470-human-population-weight.html

May 30, 2013

The Weight of the World: Researchers Weigh Human Population

The average body mass, globally, was 136 pounds (62 kilograms.)

In North America, which has the highest average body mass of any continent, the number was 178 pounds (80.7 kg).

North America has only 6 percent of the world's population, but 34 percent all the human biomass in the world that is due to obesity, the researchers said.

In contrast, Asia has 61 percent of the world's population, but only 13 percent of the world's biomass due to obesity.

 

If all countries had the same average BMI as the United States, the total human biomass would increase by 63 million tons (58 million metric tons), equivalent to the weight of of 473 million people, the researchers said.

The study is published today (June 17) in the journal BMC Public Health.

So all you fatties in America need to calm down and eat a salad.

[Grimm10]

I haven't been under 178 lbs since grade 10!

[UniBlab]

27 minutes ago, fryman said:

So all you fatties in America need to calm down and eat a salad.

Thank you.................I've been in denial.

 

 

[techyiam]

2 hours ago, mrelwood said:

Asian riders tend to be much lighter than even Adam WrongWay, which can explain the inconsistency of the various tests. Add a bit of US average in the mix and the results can again be quite different.

Certainly, we cannot dismiss Newton's 2nd Law of Motion.

However,  @Jack ex-KS has ridden the 50 degrees hill, and he weighs between 86-88 kg (~190 lbs). You can let Jack tell you his weight in the 2nd time-stamped video below.

Note that @Ginger On Wheels has actually met Adam Wrongway. He figures Adam comes in at 5'9" and 165 lbs.

 

 

 

 

 

[techyiam]

@Tawpie, if I am not mistaken, you actually have ridden an S20 demo wheel. If you don't mind sharing, how would you characterize the low end torque of the KS S20B to that of your almost-16X?

Edited April 11, 2022 by techyiam

[Tawpie]

I did get to ride the RevRides wheel, pre-updating of firmware... it was a few days old. I did not try to punch it, it wasn't mine and I already knew that the first person to drop it would break the front handle... didn't want that honor.

So can't say how the low end torque is! I did watch much heavier riders go from a basic standstill up the angled concrete support for the picnic area's roof, guessing it was 30°, probably quite a bit steeper. I also observed that when you push the wheel into a wall it would drop forward momentarily then recover—clearly doing something to protected itself from overcurrent. Other riders were happily penduluming around, going up and down the grass hills, and the RevRides rep was going up and over everything he could find during the group ride. It seemed like it would be ok enough for me. I don't know though, and I don't MJ lean off the line—just not my style.

I'll be sure to let you know later (hopefully this year!)… but again, I'm not a heavy rider by any stretch so it'll be unfair to extrapolate my experience very far.

Edited April 11, 2022 by Tawpie

[chanman]

Yeah I have a hard explaining it, in ginger's looks like a hill that I would do on the S18 quite comfortably and I'm not particularly lightweight.

Maybe we're seeing firmware differences where the S20 should be pulling 40A to get going on this hill but the controller isn't letting it, but it's somehow unlocked for this big hill the manufacturer is doing.

Edited April 11, 2022 by chanman

[Forwardnbak]

I need to see more, so many little snippets.

only ever little parts. 

On the video I saw it was only lights dipping maybe just suspension was doing that? 
maybe not?

 

one day the Eagle soars with range and reviews,

the next day it crashes like a flying whale 

[zeroSIXzero]

I think it is strange that i find NO more new videos people riding it. Did ALL of them burn???

SO.... How has th new firmware affected the performance. Just befor the fire I got the feeling the "new" firmware gave it a boost. 
So what have the new firmware after the fire done with it? Only BMS changes, or did the cripple it more again. Anyone tried the latest firmware?

[Paul A]

Why are Gotways high performance?

Is it possible for KS to merely copy Gotway's board design/software/firmware, and transplant into the Eagle?

 

[Forwardnbak]

1 minute ago, zeroSIXzero said:

I think it is strange that i find NO more new videos people riding it. Did ALL of them burn???

I also kind of expected a follow up announcement from KS? It seems quiet is best to let it all float away and be forgotten.

surely there are units out there with updated FW and people keen to get info out. 
maybe a quiet stop ride? From KS? 
 

who knows. 

 

[That Guy]

2 minutes ago, Paul A said:

Why are Gotways high performance?

I think it is a matter of design philosophy. Gotway simply risk it by leaving little to no safety margin in design in most cases. It is because everyone wants a suspension wheel no heavier than the 40kg weight, at least 100km range and at least 80kph riding speed...

[Brendan "nog3" Halliday]

8 minutes ago, Forwardnbak said:

maybe a quiet stop ride? From KS? 
 

who knows. 

 

Nothing like that, we're still riding them and they're releasing updated firmware in response to requests still.

[Brendan "nog3" Halliday]

6 hours ago, Ginger On Wheels said:

I think your gut feeling is right. It just doesn't compare to Begode wheels. The effort required to get the wheel moving is one portion, it just doesn't respond to the lean as fast as Begode wheels do. The other aspect between all the disagreement in this thread, I think, is the rider weight. I think people are underestimating the impact that has when you're riding these things. Begode reps in those videos doing insane climbs are probably 5'5" 150lbs. Adam comes in around 5'9" 165 I think. I'm 6'2" 220lbs. My RSHT simply floats up most hills, but on the S22 I need to sort of feather the weight on the end of my toes because I can feel that I'm near the limits of what the wheel can do. If you're getting the S22 strictly for hill climbs, wait for the Master or buy an RSHT. That being said, the S22 is a great all-around wheel. Super comfortable cruiser, very nimble with the high pedals, stability at speed is good with that huge tire, suspension gives me super powers in confidence when doing dumb things I shouldn't do, and it can really rip though off-road areas assuming there aren't steep sections you're needing to accelerate up. I'd bet that if someone put me on a trail and chip timed me with my RSHT and then on the S22 that I would be faster on the S22 simply because of the suspension, tire, and pedal height. It eats big bumps for breakfast off-road. Really my only complaint is that off the line it just feels like it needs more power. It feels software limited to an unnecessary degree. With the specs it's got it seems like it should be able to rip so hard that the tire looses traction off-road, but for me that's just not the case. 

If you haven't already, shift the pedals forward one notch. It's how they will come in production s22 and improves the tendancy for the wheel/rider cg to balance further back.

[supercurio]

1 hour ago, zeroSIXzero said:

I think it is strange that i find NO more new videos people riding it. Did ALL of them burn???

SO.... How has th new firmware affected the performance. Just befor the fire I got the feeling the "new" firmware gave it a boost. 
So what have the new firmware after the fire done with it? Only BMS changes, or did the cripple it more again. Anyone tried the latest firmware?

Reviewers are receiving the Master now, so you might see S20/Master comparisons pop-up, but you can predict that we won't see much more S20 content nowadays.

[supercurio]

On 4/9/2022 at 1:42 AM, Elliott Reitz said:

My wheel only charges to 124.2V according to the app.  I did use a multimeter to measure the charger directly and its outputting 127V.  So now I'm wondering what the actual battery voltage inside the wheel really is(?).  or is it another app problem.  hmm (except the KS app says the same).

Most likely your multimeter is inaccurate.
It's very unlikely that the charger outputs 127V, and that the board, BMS1 and BMS2 all three read the wrong voltage.

Now you may invest in a fluke or ISO-certified multimeter to have the privilege to discover that you should be provided a better charger  (or calibrate yours from this calibrated reference)

[supercurio]

8 hours ago, Ginger On Wheels said:

My RSHT simply floats up most hills, but on the S22 I need to sort of feather the weight on the end of my toes because I can feel that I'm near the limits of what the wheel can do.

Thanks for mentioning this.

I'll echo others as well, offsetting your feet forward onto the pedals (or offsetting pedals forward: same) should solve 100% the "effort" aspect for going up hill or accelerating.... up to the point where the wheel runs out of torque and the pedals dip forward as it can't sustain balancing and the power demand.

When you say that you are near the limits, can you tell if it's a feeling because the pedals give in as part of the firmware programming, or yeah it's an overpower/overlean situation happening unless you back-off to avoid faceplanting?

[Paul A]

Recent video of Firesak test by member GingerOnWheels.

Continuous, more credible.

Thanks to GoW for filming another test.

 

FireSak Vs. Lithium Battery - Does It Work?

2.5K views · 1 day ago

Ginger On Wheels
24.1K subscribers

https://youtu.be/CUeSSEoxQ1E

 

Edited April 12, 2022 by Paul A

[Elliott Reitz]

1 hour ago, supercurio said:

Most likely your multimeter is inaccurate.
It's very unlikely that the charger outputs 127V, and that the board, BMS1 and BMS2 all three read the wrong voltage.

Now you may invest in a fluke or ISO-certified multimeter to have the privilege to discover that you should be provided a better charger  (or calibrate yours from this calibrated reference)

You assert that without knowing the multimeter(s) I've used or what I've used them on.  FWIW, after my last ride the app said it was charging over an amp at 124.2V.  When I got this wheel, the charge-current tapered off to less than an amp at 123.8V.  So it affirms my previous impression that its a matter of balancing and why keeping on-charger with a bit of "exercising" optimizes battery packs (not the same as optimizing the cells). 

[supercurio]

I could be wrong, of course but I'll explain the reasoning.

If the charge is 1A at 124.2V, it means that the termination voltage, aka charger voltage is approx 124V (according to the wheel)
If the charger voltage was 127V, then it would be charging near 5A at up to 127V in the CC phase. 1A means it's in the CV phase - very close to the charger voltage.

Then all the chargers which were shipped from the first 40 wheels were outputting between 124-125.5V

That's where my conclusion "this multimeter is probably mis-calibrated" comes from.

In SoftTuner, what do the the BMS 1 and BMS 2 tell about the voltage?

Edited April 12, 2022 by supercurio