Kingsong S20/S22 (Confirmed)

[techyiam]

3 hours ago, Freeforester said:

Luckily, we won’t likely be seeing a repeat of the ‘V12 rider-self-test’ pantomime with the S20.

 

2 hours ago, techyiam said:

Based on what?

 

1 hour ago, Freeforester said:

Based on the likely assumption that few if any of sound judgement who are likely to risk repeating Jediah’s testing regime on a (by then ‘fixed’)wheel they’ve saved up for and bought themselves, in spite of all the bumps along this particular journey, irrespective of KS’s instruction manual content. 
 

So far, the jury still appear to be out on any definitive answer to what went awry, that is not in any dispute, but we can be pretty confident that, unlike Inmotion’s V12 self-‘test’, KS won’t be exhorting buyers to, eg stress test the acceleration/deceleration characteristics of their wheel to ‘ensure’ non-failure of whatever component, but by dint of some improvements made to the BMS circuitry and/or software programming and whatever else, guaranteeing that there won’t be any risk of a similar ensuing potential fireball, any more than buyers are likely to be so treating their new acquisition.

You just provided more of your assumptions. 

You are certainly entitled to them, but they are not very convincing, at least to me.

[Freeforester]

1 hour ago, techyiam said:

 

 

You just provided more of your assumptions. 

You are certainly entitled to them, but they are not very convincing, at least to me.

Quite so, but It would be incorrect of you were you to assume that my assumptions, as laid out in my answer were directed to you in particular.

Nevertheless, I’m sure I’m entitled to imagine similarly that those who base their purchasing decisions on such trifles either way will act accordingly.

[Rawnei]

This thread is starting to look like local politicans fighting over an issue (the issue just happens to be the S22) 😂

[techyiam]

11 minutes ago, Rawnei said:

This thread is starting to look like local politicans fighting over an issue (the issue just happens to be the S22) 😂

So, why are you making this post? Exactly! It isn't because you have just made an out-of-this-world insightful observation, but rather doing what everybody else is doing. Increasing post count why waiting for Kingsong to stop twiddling their thumbs, and perhaps for @Jack ex-KS to release his Master review so some of us can have a reason to go over to that thread.

[Paul A]

Copy and paste of a conversation from a YouTube video.

A viewer writing about the details leading up to a recent Gotway fire.

He had a crash, the motherboard burned and smoked, the motherboard was replaced, then two weeks later, the EUC burst into flames.

Similar in some respects to the S20 fire.

Perhaps Hsiang's 30mph crash caused unseen damage that also took a few days to manifest.

_________________________________________________________

Kingsong S20 Eagle - DEEP DIVE - Best off-road EUC ever?

5,493 views

Mar 2, 2022

RIDE & GLIDE

6.54K subscribers

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TstfwY5my6o&lc=Ugxt4BN_xaQtkN1BSCV4AaABAg.9ZROLDCJ41v9_WgidgEdHu

 

 

 

Markus Swärdenholt

3 weeks ago

Been riding for almost 10 years, my fifth machine burned down my apartment, killed my cats and almost killed me 6 months ago. Has my eyes on this wheel and this type of descriptor's "behind the looks" discussion has been the best video for the s20 I have heard. Cant wait to get back to life again.

 

 

Paul A

3 weeks ago

What are the details of the fire? Was it a Gotway?

 

 

Markus Swärdenholt

3 weeks ago

 @Paul A  MSP High HT. Not sure, nothing left of either hallway or machine, have my ideas but nothing

 

 

Paul A

3 weeks ago

 @Markus Swärdenholt  Thanks.

 

 

Markus Swärdenholt

28 minutes ago (edited)

 @Paul A  Two weeks prior to the fire I hit the pedals at really low speed, had my one leg in the air about to step down. At that point the machine jerked violently and ended up with me on the ground smoking (the motherboard fried). I went and bought a new motherboard the next day, still smelling the smoke. Got the motherboard replaced, machine worked as always, still smoke smell emanating from it. Rode for two weeks and the smoke smell persisted, thought it could be the residue of the old motherboard I had seen inside after the swap. Two weeks later I 3D printed out a modified handle with an "umbrella" to cover the back. Morning after my roommate saw the new print and started pulling it out and pressing it in repeatedly. Less than 20 seconds later when he had walked into the toilet the machine burst out plumes of fire. Think one cell got cooked after the incident but that battery pack was not voltage tested and the repair was done in less than a day. Had a similar thing happen from a low speed impact on the Msuper S+ years ago. That thing popped the motherboard to but there was no smell. My theory is that the "umbrella" shaped 3D print and the repeated usage of the handle forced in air into the machine. The unseen damaged cell got oxygenated and finally stopped cooking and started to burn instead. Going to make a video later on showing some of the damage.

 

 

[Forwardnbak]

Today I ordered a nice large fire blanket, and wifi smoke detector to park next to my wheels just Incase. 

[techyiam]

7 hours ago, Paul A said:

Perhaps Hsiang's 30mph crash caused unseen damage that also took a few days to manifest.

My opinion is that Hsiang's demo wheel should have been retired right after it struck a stationary object with similar mass with a speed of 30 mph at impact.

However, Kingsong admitted that all KS S20B's have the defective short circuit protection, since it said the the failure was due to software.

Edited April 7, 2022 by techyiam

[HerotheCat]

On 4/4/2022 at 6:47 PM, Tawpie said:

Sad, but possible. On the 'good' side, I haven't heard that any units have left China yet so other than airfreighting a few out, there won't be many in consumer hands for 6 weeks.

I did understand that eWheels was supposed to receive some non-demo units and "some" of the day 1 orders were actually slated to leave eWheels in late February (they were going to collect final payment). But since we haven't heard anyone bragging about getting their consumer wheel yet, either that was incorrect or eWheels didn't send the wheels out. Hoping that eWheels has still got our backs.

eWheels did in fact receive 40+ "first batch" non-demo wheels earlier this year. I am slated to get one of these. They were sitting in customs/transit when the fire video surfaced and as of today (4/7/2022) they are HOLDING the wheels until Kingsong provides more information/a better resolution.

Unfortunately though, Kingsong stated the firmware update would resolve the issues, but eWheels states "We've heard that this latest firmware update noticeably reduces power output and top speed." - I'm curious who these people they are hearing it from are, since Chooch and WrongWay seem to not have any issues at all!

It's a real cluster F_%k and better communication from all involved would be nice.

Edited April 7, 2022 by HerotheCat

[spitfire1337]

Just now, HerotheCat said:

eWheels did in fact receive 40+ "first batch" non-demo wheels earlier this year. I am slated to get one of these. They were sitting in customs/transit when the fire video surfaced and as of today (4/7/2022) they are HOLDING the wheels until Kingsong provides more information/a better resolution.

I've been wondering what was going on with those. I was also supposed to be in the first 40 as well when I asked but haven't heard anything since.

[HerotheCat]

1 minute ago, spitfire1337 said:

I've been wondering what was going on with those. I was also supposed to be in the first 40 as well when I asked but haven't heard anything since.

Unfortunately though, Kingsong stated the firmware update would resolve the issues, but eWheels states "We've heard that this latest firmware update noticeably reduces power output and top speed." - I'm curious who these people they are hearing it from are, since Chooch and WrongWay seem to not have any issues at all and the ohnly other wheels out are demos!    - seriously WTF?

It's a real cluster F_%k and better communication from all involved would be nice.

[Forwardnbak]

30 minutes ago, HerotheCat said:

eWheels did in fact receive 40+ "first batch" non-demo wheels earlier this year. I am slated to get one of these. They were sitting in customs/transit when the fire video surfaced and as of today (4/7/2022) they are HOLDING the wheels until Kingsong provides more information/a better resolution.

Unfortunately though, Kingsong stated the firmware update would resolve the issues, but eWheels states "We've heard that this latest firmware update noticeably reduces power output and top speed." - I'm curious who these people they are hearing it from are, since Chooch and WrongWay seem to not have any issues at all!

It's a real cluster F_%k and better communication from all involved would be nice.

That is a cluster.

wow.

Always little bit of info 

“we heard a board caught fire today”

”we heard power is reduced”

”we heard they will improve the bumper”

 

KINGSONG I think should be very vocal through this. Listing each improvement made on the back of the demo wheels tested  (that’s why they sent them… unless it was just for the hype) 

 

this custom thing sucks, Jason, and customs though might be the type of pressure they need to step up. I don’t think they will pull the SMOKESCREEN for customs, they will want to see real world change made I would think.

if the power and torque are reduced as I feel they kind of must do here, I think I’ll cancel. 

 

[Paul A]

"We've heard that this latest firmware update noticeably reduces power output and top speed." 

Where does eWheels state this?

[chanman]

I'm currently satisfied by the battery fire analysis and response, but maybe a more effective fuse for this failure mode would be a nice change if it doesn't compromise normal operation.

Determining the cause of the board failure is likely to be inconclusive give the extent of the battery fire damage. Board failure is a separate issue that unless we see repeated I'm currently willing to write off for the time being as a preproduction fluke.

(Rumors of more conservative firmware appear to be misinformed or exaggerated)

Edited April 7, 2022 by chanman
Correction on state of firmware

[HerotheCat]

26 minutes ago, Paul A said:

"We've heard that this latest firmware update noticeably reduces power output and top speed." 

Where does eWheels state this?

They stated it in an email response to my inquiry. As I said before, I'm not happy with that response, other reviewers have not mentioned ANY performance impact with the new firmware update.

[Bizra6ot]

1 hour ago, HerotheCat said:

 eWheels states "We've heard that this latest firmware update noticeably reduces power output and top speed." - I'm curious who these people they are hearing it from are

I saw it on FB, I could be wrong but if I remember correctly, it was @Ginger On Wheels who said it in a comment on FB when the last FW 'S22' was published after he updated it on his S22 firebird

edit https://www.facebook.com/groups/ElectricUnicycle/posts/4973778422720081/

Ginger On Wheels

"It seems the latest update reduced top speed and torque. It will overpower up hills now, and the freespin decreased from 106kph to 95kph."

Edited April 7, 2022 by Bizra6ot

[Forwardnbak]

It’s a sad song 

[HerotheCat]

5 minutes ago, Bizra6ot said:

I saw it on FB, I could be wrong but if I remember correctly, it was @Ginger On Wheels who said it in a comment on FB when the last FW 'S22' was published after he updated it on his S22 firebird

So one person. :-(

I'm hoping this isn't the person eWheels is "hearing" it from! He clearly states in his comment that he has version 15 and the reduction is minor!

Also an important note, Kingsong states the fix is in FW 2.19, so he wasn't even testing the same version

[Tawpie]

[Brendan "nog3" Halliday]

2 hours ago, HerotheCat said:

So one person. :-(

I'm hoping this isn't the person eWheels is "hearing" it from! He clearly states in his comment that he has version 15 and the reduction is minor!

Also an important note, Kingsong states the fix is in FW 2.19, so he wasn't even testing the same version

In my experience (since I have access to two sample units, daily) between 2.15 and 2.19 there was a significant increase in power delivery in the initial start and at braking.

Chinese whispers like this is incredibly unhelpful and rife in this community. I've spent several hours this week already answering enquiries from people who had been told by certain youtube personalities that KS had said in their statement RE the incident that they would further reduce power in the future. This is not the case.

[supercurio]

If there's any doubt with @Brendan "nog3" Halliday wrote (really should not), the 2.19 Changelog contains:

Quote

C. Optimized the motor drive part to make the output power larger.

 

Edited April 7, 2022 by supercurio

[Forwardnbak]

I totally  trust Nog. Nice info, cheers for chipping in. 

[Paul A]

Ginger was the one producing and selling the' Firesaks'.

In the YouTube video posted to demonstrate the Firesak's effectiveness, the video was stopped once the fire had commenced.

It was claimed that a farmer had appeared out of nowhere and ordered the experiment to cease.

An extremely hot and smoking Firesak was then presumably loaded into the back seat of a car, when the video continued.

[Paul A]

Further to previous post of YouTube regarding circumstances in lead up to a Gotway fire.

 

Markus Swärdenholt

11 hours ago

 @Paul A Given that I have had motherboards fry before but never have I had that smell persist afterwards for so long, that should definitely be a reason to open up any machine and check every cell for any type of damage. Can remember that it was fully charged when it caught fire (the fire started when the machine was of and not charging). The day I took the machine to a dealer I had not disconnected the battery so the wheel did not roll properly. Had to carry/roll it maybe 200 meters from the buss. Maybe in that state the batteries can still be charged when pushed along...overcharging but with the motherboard busted might have pushed a cell or two to get damaged

 

 

 

Edited April 8, 2022 by Paul A

[Blunzn]

 

[Elliott Reitz]

My S22 commute statistics today. The ride home had way more headwind.  38.9 is my top speed to date since after reaching 35mph on my MSX and doing too many speed bump jumps and grass I had to have suspention.  Now I've reached a new personal speed mark.  What limited it?  Headwind and caution.  

So now that I've pushed more headwind than before while remaining cautious of headwinds and wheel limits, considering the KS S20/S22 has:

Rated power = 3300w.  That means 3300/126V = 26A max sustained current.  Looks like I used about 20A max (long enough to show on current graph).  So it seems the headwind sense with vision wind limit only protected by glasses and visor is as close as I want to get to a cut-out.  I'm not out for speed as much as a nice ride.  More gear for higher speeds would risk the trust-limits on this wheel. 

 

There's a bug in EUC World here where the speed and battery % are way-off.  The top-speeds match the kph-mph converted speeds I saw on the S22 display today.

 

 

 

 

 

 

11

 

Edited April 8, 2022 by Elliott Reitz