Kingsong S20/S22 (Confirmed)

[Ronin]

10 hours ago, DjPanJan said:

This text include 2 tergiversate

 Zatím přesně nevíme co se stalo se strojem v Americe ale měl minimálně jednu bouračku- /bla bla we dont know what realy hapened in New York and what this bad riders make to this amamazing s20 machine torture but this bad guys make minimal one hard CRASH with S20 demo unit.

 

, hlásili taky že možná byl utopen. Základní deska je na cestě zpátky do Činy. Výrobce by měl k tomu vyjádřit. Another  tergiversate new york riders maybe submerge s20 before crash.  (this is nonsence Firefighters submerge s20 inside bin and fill with water )= try to manipulate/propganda and say riders submerge s20 before crash(or just damage electronic with water before fireball

Základní deska je na cestě zpátky do Činy. Výrobce by měl k tomu vyjádřit. Control board id on way back to China, manufactorer propably make oficial info later. 

 

Sorry for this chaos i try translate this CZ words to English with all posible emotions and context what is realy deeper inside text.

 

Take original text like SHOP/seller statement.(ewerything be ok unicorns rainbows love and dont forget buy S22) 

PanJan declaration : I have nothing against ekolka.cz i like this shop services quality and events what they make to popularise EUC here. And i have V2 sherman from this shop(happy owner)

 

What is this disinformation? The NYC demo wheel has never been submerged. It burned after hard brakings, its documented on hsiang and u stride channels. Idk why people try to find excuses to justify this disaster fire.... There are no excuses. Hope this disinformation will stop. This is about safety so this deserves to be called out... 

Edited April 6, 2022 by Ronin Ryder

[Forwardnbak]

It would be nice to see some more info from KS.

Clarify what is going on. Surely they know people are speculating. 

Are there any hardware changes, how is the third party evaluation? 
 

 

“Your ideal flagship-level device - PURPOSEFUL DESIGN” (from their website) 

is it still this? 

 

 

[Finn Bjerke]

Firmware upgrade is not enough- an added fuse should secure the batteries - Veteran sherman have that .... No more lithium fires pls.... Im not OK with the name change and limited inexpensive changes - Inmotion is more honest when they make mistakes I feel. 

[Curt8892]

9 hours ago, FrenchUsa said:

Don’t hate me, it is my own opinion

 

That is to bad. I think KS S22 has had some features that are slowly coming out like the ability the change the riding height. 
 

I road it and I have only been riding for a year and this was the easiest wheel to ride. (I am so excited, I may 🥹)
 

For all that cancelled their order “thank you”……Hopefully I will be getting it earlier. 

[jrhz06]

Funny how KingSong has 1 fire and now a bunch of people are ready to change to Begode, that’s had 30 fires. I’m still holding onto my S20/22 preorder for now. Can’t see anything with suspension that is convincing me to change.

[Driftcycle]

1 hour ago, Finn Bjerke said:

 - Inmotion is more honest when they make mistakes I feel. 

🤔 Hmmm - according to this thread on Reddit, Inmotion maybe attempting to payoff this rider to keep quiet about a V11 burning his house down. Disclaimer - no one has been able to independently verify that the Inmotion wheel is indeed the culprit.

 

[Tawpie]

1 hour ago, Finn Bjerke said:

Firmware upgrade is not enough- an added fuse should secure the batteries

They already have a fuse, the bad firmware meant the fuse couldn't work. When the firmware was fixed and the battery was shorted the fuse blew as expected. I sort of expect to see another fuse added just to shut us up, but cannot see how an extra fuse would have prevented this fire.

[Tawpie]

4 minutes ago, Paul A said:

precipitated

Maybe you meant "preceded"? We don't know that the crash had a material role in this fire, just that the crash happened before the fire.

Edited April 6, 2022 by Tawpie

[Paul A]

Yes, preceded would be more accurate.

Precipitated implies cause and effect.

Preceded merely implies timing of events.

__________

 

The repeated extreme torquing was in quick succession.

Is the fire therefore in the category of user error/attributable?

[Tawpie]

3 minutes ago, Paul A said:

The repeated extreme torquing was in quick succession.

Is the fire therefore in the category of user error/attributable?

Maybe, but what I saw looked completely reasonable and within my expectations. That said, the very first "Important" warning in my 16X manual is to not accelerate or decelerate rapidly. I ignore that advice. Perhaps at my own peril.

[meepmeepmayer]

1 hour ago, Tawpie said:

They already have a fuse, the bad firmware meant the fuse couldn't work.

Wut, how is this even possible? Either a fuse is a fuse, or not? 

[Tawpie]

12 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Wut, how is this even possible? Either a fuse is a fuse, or not? 

Yeah, see a fuse works because it eventually gets so hot that it melts. The fuse's rating is approximately how much current will eventually (after a second or two or ten) cause the fuse to melt. But in order to melt, the fuse's element has to get hot and if you pulse current into it, the element has a chance to cool down and the element may never get hot enough to actually melt.

The "not sure exactly when the fuse will blow" is why alternate means are now used as the primary protection. Ground fault interrupters for example. In this BMSs case, they use a FET to "cut" the battery power... this FET is under software control. The problem they had is that when the system rebooted, it rebooted with the FET connecting the battery when it should have booted with the FET disconnecting the battery. This caused the power to be pulsed, and the fuse didn't get hot enough to melt.

The big flash you see when a fuse 'blows' is because the power will arc across the melting element as it melts... the arc vaporizes what's left of the metal and self extinguishes because the electrodes are (supposed to be) far enough apart.

This is a strange case where SW found away around a passive HW protection. Unusual to be sure, and something to be watched for in future designs.

 

What's even stranger is KS probably did this to themselves by having the SW trip the overcurrent cutoff "aggressively" rather than letting it persist for a while. If they had let the short stay in place for a little bit longer, the fuse would have melted and all we'd have is a dead battery. And blown up motherboard.

Edited April 7, 2022 by Tawpie

[meepmeepmayer]

1 hour ago, jrhz06 said:

Funny how KingSong has 1 fire and now a bunch of people are ready to change to Begode, that’s had 30 fires. I’m still holding onto my S20/22 preorder for now. Can’t see anything with suspension that is convincing me to change.

If I understood it correctly, the Begode fires were mostly a certain batch of LG cells, and they changed the cells. So that would be a hardware fix. And the fires were more like actual fires - some cells going up and then the wheel burns out.

We don't have confirmation yet that any hardware fix has been made for this KS fire. And it was less like a normal fire and more like a crazy giant bunsen burner inferno, with all the cells going up at once, even cutting through the metal battery box.

So it's not exactly the same situation. The Begode problem seems to be fixed now. The KS problem is yet to be fully understood, and while we can expect it to be fixed, it really isn't yet in any testable way. So right now, some will rightfully see Begode as safer than the S20/S22.

I'm sure this will be a great wheel eventually, and maybe my next one (or a Master). But that will need some time (and credible reassurances by KS).

Also, this is KS's first prominent fire. Some people will be put off by that sudden change in what they expected.

[meepmeepmayer]

3 minutes ago, Tawpie said:

This is a strange case where SW found away around a passive HW protection.

Thanks for the explanation!

The quoted seems to be the problem then. How is it passive protection if it can fail in some cases? But I don't know anything about electronics, maybe things are not that easy. I still find it hard to believe that one can't do real passive protection.

[Paul A]

Great explanation, thanks TP.

KS explanation not as clearly expressed for lay people to comprehend.

Language barriers and translation limitations.

[Tawpie]

2 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

the Begode fires were mostly a certain batch of LG cells

This I find interesting actually. We, the community, have attributed these fires to the LG cells because, well, the fires were most prevalent when the LG cells were new and other than the form factor change the packs were basically the same as they always were—could still catch fire but the 21700 LG packs are… touchier. I could be very wrong here but here's to putting a foot in my mouth... BG never said that. LG never said that. LiTech never said that. @RagingGrandpa tried his best to light a pack on fire and it smugly sat there smiling at him (I don't remember, did a fuse even blow?). Does anyone really know why the 900 Wh packs had a spate of fires? Is anyone who represents Begode saying anything about what BG did so that they're not at the top of the "fires this month" list? Did BG fix something besides limiting the charge current and changing battery cells? If it was cells and they know it was cells, what do owners that aren't eWheels customers do? They haven't withdrawn the "don't charge or store indoors, and replace the batteries every single year" notice. I don't know if that's telling or just the lawyers CYA.

 

2 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

So right now, some will rightfully see Begode as safer than the S20/S22.

Honestly I don't know and have no place even guessing about whose battery is less fire prone than anyone elses. Not many Begode fires for half a year now? One super spectacular mini rocket caught on 4k video by not one but two YT personalties. Another "burned my entire house down" 1 star review. Maybe the short straw isn't in BG's hand this month. Maybe they truly have done something to help reduce the probability of fire (eWheels doesn't think so yet). Maybe it's just the eye of Sauron found an Eagle. I have zero idea.

I've been in new product HW and SW development for nearly 40 years and KS's report made good sense to me. I applaud them for out and out saying "this is how we forked it, here's how we are fixing it". They might be lying through their teeth or hiding something else for all I know, but at least they said something. Oh. I have no illusions that they're actually telling us the whole story... they haven't shared their look at what started the whole chain of events. That part's going to be far more difficult I think, given how effective fire is at obscuring evidence. (unless it's another firmware problem which is good because firmware problems actually stand some chance of being reproduced—random hardware failures are much more difficult. If you can't reproduce the fault, it's difficult to gauge the effectiveness of your fix.

aside: (who in the world is Litech? A 6 year old company? What's their track record? They're making Shermax batteries in addition to eWheel's batteries. I kid you not, you can buy a guitar hanger on their website (https://litechpower.com/product-detail/hbpj_070.html). Hopefully they're good—I will say they're definitely brave... when I used to do 'max recommended' load tests on batteries the packs were in blast boxes with class D fire extinguishers at the ready. We were cowering behind structural columns with a string tied to the power cable so that if the holder of the string so much as flinched the power cable was physically yanked out of the power supply. It was pretty stupid looking. Their guys just stand there holding a camera like they're filming a Hello Kitty action figure)

Edited April 7, 2022 by Tawpie

[Miko.cz]

also guys remember that it could be different what information we have, or we are able to verify. Remember YTubers etc. that spread blabla like a wind or our own mistakes, feelings and preferences.
I led 5 years one mid size manufacturer internal and external validations of electronics (low power only) and it was really another level of public info vs communication with distributors. For sure dont underestimate "wild" information, could be very useful but also just rumors. Well and the big factor of SALE is also there + different China manufacturers behaviours in compare with Western. Not so easy to select and verify the truth I say
However - no room for fires

[Freeforester]

8 hours ago, Paul A said:

Yes, preceded would be more accurate.

Precipitated implies cause and effect.

Preceded merely implies timing of events.

__________

 

The repeated extreme torquing was in quick succession.

Is the fire therefore in the category of user error/attributable?

Following on a little from this, it would seem timely to remind riders more generally that if a manufacturer’s (possibly ‘most important’) safe use warning/‘do not do this’ written instruction is basically set aside, then little by way of claim arising from the results of ignoring such a warning must surely be valid?

I get completely that U-stride was, as a test-pilot, quite right in testing the wheel as he saw best, and we should indeed be glad that the issue arose now and not much later, but surely it must be encumbent on all prospective purchasers to a) read the product manual, and b) heed any and all of the manufacturer’s advice and warnings?    It’s great that the S20 production wheels will be safer now that fixes are being enacted, but this does not absolve riders of their own responsibilities/liabilities in as far as correct use of the product within the ‘envelope’ as laid out by manufacturers.

Luckily, we won’t likely be seeing a repeat of the ‘V12 rider-self-test’ pantomime with the S20.

[Robse]

38 minutes ago, Freeforester said:

Following on a little from this, it would seem timely to remind riders more generally that if a manufacturer’s (possibly ‘most important’) safe use warning/‘do not do this’ written instruction is basically set aside, then little by way of claim arising from the results of ignoring such a warning must surely be valid?

I get completely that U-stride was, as a test-pilot, quite right in testing the wheel as he saw best, and we should indeed be glad that the issue arose now and not much later, but surely it must be encumbent on all prospective purchasers to a) read the product manual, and b) heed any and all of the manufacturer’s advice and warnings?    It’s great that the S20 production wheels will be safer now that fixes are being enacted, but this does not absolve riders of their own responsibilities/liabilities in as far as correct use of the product within the ‘envelope’ as laid out by manufacturers.

Luckily, we won’t likely be seeing a repeat of the ‘V12 rider-self-test’ pantomime with the S20.

Agree, but...  Its not easy to follow all the warnings;  how am i supposed to get the wheel moving, if i am no allowed to lean just a little bit forward?  Press my toes down on the frontend of the pedals and lean backwards ? ehhh  

[Freeforester]

Ha, yes, a bit nebulous to say the least, I hadn’t seen the KS manual before this; and i have to admit it doesn’t even look like U-stride, to me anyway!  

 

[techyiam]

1 hour ago, Freeforester said:

Luckily, we won’t likely be seeing a repeat of the ‘V12 rider-self-test’ pantomime with the S20.

Based on what?

Kingsong admitted that all KS S20B's have defective short circuit protection at all levels. And Kingsong hasn't shown cutouts don't lead to sparks, flames and smoke.

They don't know for sure what caused the cutout.

They say it may be caused by the loss of a proper hall sensor signal. How do you tied the wheel being successively accelerated then decelerated to the loss of signal?

Kingsong still hasn't provided the reason for the loss of hall sensor signal, nor a preventive measure for the loss of signal.

Once the battery packs catches fire, Kingsong still hasn't provided a solution to the turning of the "battery packs in metal enclosures" into rocket-engine-like fireball and the blast of flames.

Edited April 7, 2022 by techyiam

[Miko.cz]

5 minutes ago, techyiam said:

Kingsong admitted that all KS S20B's have defective short circuit protection at all levels. And Kingsong hasn't shown cutouts don't lead to sparks, flames and smoke.

I think they meant that their new protective (not now) function in case of hall sensor failure instead of helping caused a cascade of problems.
I can imagine U-Stride tries could be the source of wrong decision of (un)protective function.

[techyiam]

13 minutes ago, Miko.cz said:

I think they meant that their new protective (not now) function in case of hall sensor failure instead of helping caused a cascade of problems.
I can imagine U-Stride tries could be the source of wrong decision of (un)protective function.

Thank you for your effort in filling the blank for Kingsong. But Kingsong should know definitively what happened, and announce their findings.

[Freeforester]

 

10 minutes ago, techyiam said:

Based on what?

Kingsong admitted that all KS S20B's have defective short circuit protection at all levels. And Kingsong hasn't shown cutouts don't lead to sparks, flames and smoke.

They don't know for sure what caused the cutout.

They say it may be caused by the loss of the hall sensor signal. How do you tied the wheel being successively accelerated then decelerated to the loss of signal?

Kingsong still hasn't provided the reason for the loss of hall sensor signal, nor a preventive measure to the loss of signal.

Once the battery packs catches fire, Kingsong still hasn't provided a solution to the turning of the "battery packs in metal enclosures" into rocket-engine-like fireball and the blast of flames.

 

Based on the likely assumption that few if any of sound judgement who are likely to risk repeating Jediah’s testing regime on a (by then ‘fixed’)wheel they’ve saved up for and bought themselves, in spite of all the bumps along this particular journey, irrespective of KS’s instruction manual content. 
 

So far, the jury still appear to be out on any definitive answer to what went awry, that is not in any dispute, but we can be pretty confident that, unlike Inmotion’s V12 self-‘test’, KS won’t be exhorting buyers to, eg stress test the acceleration/deceleration characteristics of their wheel to ‘ensure’ non-failure of whatever component, but by dint of some improvements made to the BMS circuitry and/or software programming and whatever else, guaranteeing that there won’t be any risk of a similar ensuing potential fireball, any more than buyers are likely to be so treating their new acquisition.

I’ve made zero assumptions as to the failure of the BMS or any other circuitry or components as to the outcome we have all seen. As someone who was never interested in the wheel as a possible addition to those currently owned, I merely point out the ridiculousness of the V12 self-test advice, to check if a clearly underspecced component might hold up to stress testing or not - it was assumed (though not a given) that a stress failure would not lead to a full blown thermal runaway incident - a fortunate assumption in that case, but not any preordained ‘given’.    The KS fire should and will serve as a wake-up call across the board, with thoughtful riders and manufacturers alike - stuff like this can happen.

As to the nature of and the characteristics of a battery fire in an enclosed battery housing,  I personally don’t imagine this will be the last such occurrence,  nor will other makes of ‘encased battery’ type wheels escape such an outcome, sooner or later one of these cliff climber videos will end with a glowing and flaming performance. As such, there is little to do to try to prevent such an occurrence, save perhaps making one or more panels of the battery enclosure more readily venting or otherwise destructible (but then again, why? - if the outcome is going to be a destroyed unit irrespective, the manufacturer may as well use the most cost effective means of ‘protection’ of said battery packs, unless they specifically wish to go for the ‘safely self immolate’ sector of the market, a somewhat niche segment,  I’m imagining). 
 

Any wheel catching fire in anyone’s home, irrespective of battery pack housing design ain’t going to be pretty, especially if you’re the owner of said wheel and home; the pattern of the flames and the fury of the fire are unlikely to be meaningfully altered within the current design template, and I fear it may be a little late in the day for a battery box redesign for the S20/22…

 

[Robse]

18 minutes ago, Freeforester said:

 

 

"the ridiculousness of the V12 self-test advice, to check if a clearly underspecced component might hold up to stress testing or not - it was assumed (though not a given) that a stress failure would not lead to a full blown thermal runaway incident"

 

This was exactly what made me not buy a V12, or in fact any kind of Inmotion wheel (the thought of myself standing with this wild spinning +29kg wheel and smoke coming out...)