Kingsong S20/S22 (Confirmed)

[Forwardnbak]

I think storage is ok.

it was just riding it with U-strides shoes that cooked it, they were already smoking before he stepped on. 
hot kicks 

[techyiam]

2 hours ago, Chriull said:

With the new bms firmware which does not reset itself after some overburden/short circuit the biggest problem should be resolved.

So either the upgrade or otherwise unplugging the battery should make the S20 quite risk free - if the statement of KS is about true.

In a reply to an e-mail, Jason showed that he doesn't trust Kingsong prowess, and insisted they get the wheel certified by a third party. Now, Kingsong has only promised to get their battery pack analyzed. But the results are not backed yet, since Kingsong hasn't shared the results with us yet. So what is Jason to do in the mean time. 80 battery packs are a lot of packs. The packs might have come separately already. If that is the case, he just may have to stored those packs outside separately, away from his regular warehouse and tech center.

[Chriull]

11 minutes ago, techyiam said:

In a reply to an e-mail, Jason showed that he doesn't trust Kingsong prowess, and insisted they get the wheel certified by a third party.

After beeing burnt once it'll be hard to rebuild trust

And the prowess they just showed does not help rebuilding anything.

The motherboard/microprocessor should never ever get into an uncontrolled state and _stay_ there forever- like this periodicly drawing huge currents. 

And a self reseting fuse with such short delay for a liion battery just blows ones mind...

Unfortionately ks is not alone - it's just a matter of time until the next manufacturer surprises us again.

[fbhb]

37 minutes ago, Chriull said:

After beeing burnt once it'll be hard to rebuild trust

Unfortunately, Jason has actually been burnt 3 times - Not Once!

1. Container arrived to him with GotWay wheels that had turned themselves on and started a fire in the container!

2. The more recent warehouse fire, that had him reconsidering staying in the EUC business (thankfully he decided otherwise.)

3. The S20 fire was his demo wheel, so who can blame him for his current stance on safety after these 3 instances!

37 minutes ago, Chriull said:

Unfortionately ks is not alone - it's just a matter of time until the next manufacturer surprises us again.

This statement is the real scary part, as Not one of the EUC manufacturers has been able to release a New EUC without some major drama/QC issues/safety concerns as of late.

@Jason McNeil has the clout to make these companies sit up and take notice, so we can Only hope that things slowly start to change (quicker would be far better, but I am a realist and been around long enough to see history repeat All too often!)

Edited April 5, 2022 by fbhb

[meepmeepmayer]

3 hours ago, Miko.cz said:

In the new model bug will be fixed not only in firmware, but also additional protection for electrical safety will be applied to individual cells and also battery pack.

Software update only would have been sketchy at best. This is so much better. Phew

[fryman]

5 hours ago, Miko.cz said:

I just read post by my distributor that KS will solve it also by hw update.
Source (2nd post, I dont have FB - unable to copy direct link)
"V novém modelu chyba bude odstraněna nejen ze firmwaru, ale budou použité doplňující prvky pro elektrickou ochranu samotných článku a baterii jako celku."
EN translation (mine... please ignore mistakes): In the new model bug will be fixed not only in firmware, but also additional protection for electrical safety will be applied to individual cells and also battery pack.

I could not locate on FB  or KS website where they stated they were changing any hardware.

[Miko.cz]

3 minutes ago, fryman said:

I could not locate on FB  or KS website where they stated they were changing any hardware.

I didnt write that, its information from CZ distributor. Maybe its a reaction on my discussion with them that HW change is needed in order to be accepted by us. (Im also trying to push our requests and wishes thru the channels available to me)
Feel free to verify it from other sources, Ill be even happier

[fryman]

37 minutes ago, Miko.cz said:

I didnt write that, its information from CZ distributor. Maybe its a reaction on my discussion with them that HW change is needed in order to be accepted by us. (Im also trying to push our requests and wishes thru the channels available to me)
Feel free to verify it from other sources, Ill be even happier

Okay, I know Ewheels is not content with the current fix that has been publicly communicated.

[DjPanJan]

Dont take any information seriously by ekolka.cz this seler stop sell veteran and begode wheels and start promoting selling V12 and S20 now after V12 mosfet drama and S20 fireball edition he is in trap with many euc in shiping state and he MUST sell what he receive or bankrupt this make him in bad situation.(not only him all selers worldwide)

I personaly buy my sherman from ekolka.cz and i have nothing against this shop/owner they are good seller but not take this shop like official kingsong information source thats all. Ekolka.cz have only one official EUC service in our country and i am like EUC shop/repair is here in Czech Republic.  

[supercurio]

Okay @DjPanJan I hope EKOLKA will make it, they've been producing good quality content with even an effort to make it accessible by an international audience.

Let's ask more distributors to see if they confirm that.

[supercurio]

Thanks for the previous links, I'll paste the whole content here:

Source from EKOLKA Facebook post
Content (auto translated)

Quote

KingSong's management decided that starting today the S20 model will be named S22. KingSong S20 had a critical fault in the firmware, which in exceptional cases could cause a battery overheating and the following fire. In the new model, the error will be removed not only from the firmware, but additional elements will be used for electrical protection of the article itself and the battery as a whole.

 

What do we think about it?

•  No S20 has been offered to the public so far, so far we only had pre-production testing pieces, which are designed for testing in different modes and to solve all possible problems. It's good that we have a similar option before the launch of the big robot and that KingSong immediately responds to the reported problems
• Today our S20 was racing in quite aggressive modes (gas/brake), fell several times and everything still works as it should
• So far we do not know exactly what happened to the machine in America, but it had at least one crash, they also reported that maybe it was drowned. The baseboard is on its way back to China. The manufacturer should comment on this.

Then they posted a copy of Kingsong's report, which does not include what EKOLKA says on "additional elements will be used for electrical protection of the article itself and the battery as a whole."

They kind of discredit their own post however by saying "they also reported that maybe it was drowned", which was not the case.

@DjPanJan, is this automatic CZ translation correct, with "drowned" ?

[Circuitmage]

7 hours ago, fbhb said:

Unfortunately, Jason has actually been burnt 3 times - Not Once!

1. Container arrived to him with GotWay wheels that had turned themselves on and started a fire in the container!

2. The more recent warehouse fire, that had him reconsidering staying in the EUC business (thankfully he decided otherwise.)

3. The S20 fire was his demo wheel, so who can blame him for his current stance on safety after these 3 instances!

This statement is the real scary part, as Not one of the EUC manufacturers has been able to release a New EUC without some major drama/QC issues/safety concerns as of late.

@Jason McNeil has the clout to make these companies sit up and take notice, so we can Only hope that things slowly start to change (quicker would be far better, but I am a realist and been around long enough to see history repeat All too often!)

Also, don't forget the 18L's had a glitchy start for the first 9 months (causing over current which required disassembly and battery disconnection). I had to take mine apart 2 times. 9 months is a long time to wait for a FW update to fix something.

[Miko.cz]

31 minutes ago, supercurio said:

 is this automatic CZ translation correct, with "drowned" ?

I believe "submerged in water" is used more often here on forum. As they are not native czechs, it could be a little "encrypted".
Unfortunatelly Im unable to identify if their post was created first and immediately attached KS reaction (one message) or there was some time delay (assumption and reality), I saw it was same day (I expected 1 splitted message). 28th we talked about it and I gaved them our big sceptic feeling in case of only fw solution.
They have good connection to China and imports more kind of different goods (higher ability to understand Chinglish? contacts?).
But I can agree, V12 and S20 is worring more sellers.
Long story short - I will ask them to verify the message.

[Forwardnbak]

44 minutes ago, supercurio said:

 

They kind of discredit their own post however by saying "they also reported that maybe it was drowned", which was not the case.

@DjPanJan, is this automatic CZ translation correct, with "drowned" ?

Yea that stood out. 
nowhere has it said anything about that wheel getting wet. Shaun wouldn’t hide that from his video. 

[Blunzn]

from thailand 

 

[Elliott Reitz]

15 hours ago, Miko.cz said:

I just read post by my distributor that KS will solve it also by hw update.
Source (2nd post, I dont have FB - unable to copy direct link)
"V novém modelu chyba bude odstraněna nejen ze firmwaru, ale budou použité doplňující prvky pro elektrickou ochranu samotných článku a baterii jako celku."
EN translation (mine... please ignore mistakes): In the new model bug will be fixed not only in firmware, but also additional protection for electrical safety will be applied to individual cells and also battery pack.

Well count me in for the after-market replacement batteries.  hmmm I wonder if I can make them hot-swap like the batteries on my Dewalt tools.  Maybe even use the same connector to connect them! 

Maybe the quick-swap could also solve the lack of a drain hole in the bottom too.  Like if the connectors at the top self-guide, and a latch rather than screws on the bottom.  hmmm

 

Edited April 6, 2022 by Elliott Reitz

[RayRay]

15 hours ago, PourUC said:

Loads of wheels have had their batteries go into thermal runaway. The jet like affect isn't some super defect that KS have discovered. It's just thermal runaway inside an enclosure with a small exit for the fumes and flames

Imagine a rider is momentarily stunned by being thrown off a wheel and can't get out of the jets way in time.

KS may not have discovered, but the KS20 made us aware of super unlucky possible thermal runaways risks.

[Jon Stern]

You can fix an issue that has shown up in your product, but what about the next one, and the one after that?

Rather than focusing solely on the one failure, better to focus on the flaws in the process that allowed the failure to occur in the demo unit. Fix an issue and you eliminate one problem. Fix the process and you'll prevent a thousand problems down the line.

I had an engineer working for me who had worked on Xbox. The infamous Red Ring of Death (maybe that's a good nickname for the KingSong S202 Eagle?) cost Microsoft a billion dollars. It would have killed a smaller company. In response, and to their credit, they instigated rigorous and comprehensive six-sigma training, brought in consultants including the excellent Philip Mayfield from SigmaZone, and overhauled every aspect of their product development process to avoid similar issues from happening again.

This is what KingSong should do: train their people in design for Six Sigma, and study the automotive ISO26262 "Road Vehicles - Functional Safety" standard to see what aspects of it could be applied to their business.

The overheads might add a little cost to their wheels, but it would help avoid the risk of them killing their company through mistakes of the magnitude we are discussing here. The costs could probably be more than offset by the marketing value of this new safety culture, in marked contrast to their competitors.

[Tawpie]

I want this culture to manifest itself in the EUC world... badly. But remember that we the consumers, have allowed it to persist. It sounds like eWheels is taking a stand, they've done it before. When we make purchasing decisions we are validating a company's practices as acceptable, this means we as individuals have responsibility as well. Processes need to change at all the manufacturers, even the performance leader—they don't get a break because their wheels go like the dickens, it sets a low bar that the rest are tempted to emulate. Maybe? we're seeing the start of changes. Openness. Independent design reviews. Delay shipping (or refuse to ship) if you need more time to fix something.

Vote with your wallet, and be sure apply the same standard to whomever you choose to purchase from.

[Paul A]

There are valid criticisms of six Sigma.  

Refer to wiki.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_Sigma#:~:text=Six Sigma (6σ) is a,to be free of defects.

 

Six Sigma might not be beneficial to current EUC manufacturing.  

Small size of EUC manufacturers, small workforce, low production volume.

Measurements and objectives of Six Sigma, might not be as well suited.

Seems similar to Japanese Kaizen.

Incremental improvements to well established processes.

Great for companies like Motorola, Toyota, maybe not as well suited to EUC manufacturing currently.

 

Might stifle large leaps in innovation/thinking.

Wiki references failures of Six Sigma.

[Jon Stern]

2 hours ago, Paul A said:

There are valid criticisms of six Sigma.  

Refer to wiki.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_Sigma#:~:text=Six Sigma (6σ) is a,to be free of defects.

 

Six Sigma might not be beneficial to current EUC manufacturing.  

Small size of EUC manufacturers, small workforce, low production volume.

Measurements and objectives of Six Sigma, might not be as well suited.

Seems similar to Japanese Kaizen.

Incremental improvements to well established processes.

Great for companies like Motorola, Toyota, maybe not as well suited to EUC manufacturing currently.

 

Might stifle large leaps in innovation/thinking.

Wiki references failures of Six Sigma.

I'm referring to Design for Six Sigma. This is different from the zero manufacturing defects drive.

[DjPanJan]

13 hours ago, supercurio said:

 

@DjPanJan, is this automatic CZ translation correct, with "drowned" ?

This text include 2 tergiversate

 Zatím přesně nevíme co se stalo se strojem v Americe ale měl minimálně jednu bouračku- /bla bla we dont know what realy hapened in New York and what this bad riders make to this amamazing s20 machine torture but this bad guys make minimal one hard CRASH with S20 demo unit.

 

, hlásili taky že možná byl utopen. Základní deska je na cestě zpátky do Činy. Výrobce by měl k tomu vyjádřit. Another  tergiversate new york riders maybe submerge s20 before crash.  (this is nonsence Firefighters submerge s20 inside bin and fill with water )= try to manipulate/propganda and say riders submerge s20 before crash(or just damage electronic with water before fireball

Základní deska je na cestě zpátky do Činy. Výrobce by měl k tomu vyjádřit. Control board id on way back to China, manufactorer propably make oficial info later. 

 

Sorry for this chaos i try translate this CZ words to English with all posible emotions and context what is realy deeper inside text.

 

Take original text like SHOP/seller statement.(ewerything be ok unicorns rainbows love and dont forget buy S22) 

PanJan declaration : I have nothing against ekolka.cz i like this shop services quality and events what they make to popularise EUC here. And i have V2 sherman from this shop(happy owner)

 

[FrenchUsa]

Don’t hate me, it is my own opinion

 

Edited April 6, 2022 by FrenchUsa

[techyiam]

26 minutes ago, FrenchUsa said:

Don’t hate me, it is my own opinion

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pRW1_Iq4DTg

Like everybody else, I initially dismissed the Begode Hero because the high price to specs ratio looked rather unfavorable. However, at the back of my mind, I thought something doesn't add up. Then I had a chance to hop on one. I can say that it has a premium, refined feel, that is higher than the V12, and many other wheels I have tried. Coming from a T3, it was more intuitive to ride than let say a V11. Despite what people say that it lacks a damper, when I jump up and down on it, the suspension action was clearly damped.

Thanks for your review.

Edited April 6, 2022 by techyiam

[Miko.cz]

just a note because it should be, I have updated my previous post (HW protection). Spoiler: dont expect too much