Kingsong S20/S22 (Confirmed)

[Chester Copperpot]

People thought it was odd when they put out the announcement that they would deliver a report on the 1st. It seemed pretty quick give all of the circumstances.

Now that we see the report, it seems plausible that they already had a fix in the works before the fire occurred. Not that they knew it could fail so spectacularly but that the next software/firmware update had at least some of the fixes already planned. 

Edited April 3, 2022 by Chester Copperpot

[Grimm10]

Anyone ride the S22 yet?  Are the kickstand, front bumper and off the line torque improved?

[Rollin-on-1]

9 hours ago, Paul A said:

S22 might be in reference to 2022.

Renamed to disassociate from disaster.

It will be like Gotway/Begode...we shall forever call the S22 the S20.  

[Brendan "nog3" Halliday]

16 minutes ago, Grimm10 said:

Anyone ride the S22 yet?  Are the kickstand, front bumper and off the line torque improved?

The s20 sample unit I have here now identifies itself as an s22. Thus far the kickstand and front bumper have not broken on it and it exhibits more torque than the earlier firmware revisions.

On a more serious response, S22 is the name for the final production model which nobody has yet. At best we currently have S21 or S20 and 3/4.

[Grimm10]

1 minute ago, Brendan "nog3" Halliday said:

The s20 sample unit I have here now identifies itself as an s22. Thus far the kickstand and front bumper have not broken on it and it exhibits more torque than the earlier firmware revisions.

On a more serious response, S22 is the name for the final production model which nobody has yet. At best we currently have S21 or S20 and 3/4.

I was just joking about an over the air update improving the bumper and kickstand. 😁

Good to hear an improvement on torque though. 👍

[Meso]

Now tha KS rename the wheel s22, Begode should hurry to rename there wheel EX22S or maybe even EX24S so they have a BIGGER number

 

[Blunzn]

3 minutes ago, Meso said:

Now tha KS rename the wheel s22, Begode should hurry to rename there wheel EX22S or maybe even EX24S so they have a BIGGER number

 

EX2s -> EX20s was first  

[Robse]

8 minutes ago, Meso said:

Now tha KS rename the wheel s22, Begode should hurry to rename there wheel EX22S or maybe even EX24S so they have a BIGGER number

 

Thou shalt not make fun of this. 

Even Audi has published a conversion table to make it easier for their customers and everybody else to understand, that the number 55 equals 256 kW, and the number 70 equals 420 kW.  

[lazybones99]

31 minutes ago, Robse said:

Thou shalt not make fun of this. 

Even Audi has published a conversion table to make it easier for their customers and everybody else to understand, that the number 55 equals 256 kW, and the number 70 equals 420 kW.  

logical & decipherable naming conventions are good 👍

[meepmeepmayer]

Just for reference, what is the actual tire diameter (as measured with a ruler) of the S22?

Renaming this wheel is both surprisingly understandable and pathetic. And wheel names, supposedly named after tire sizes, are even more meaningless now.

[meepmeepmayer]

Quick, which is better?!

• A software "fix" (that's what we have to believe, that it fixes... everything!)
• A fuse or something somewhere that any electrical amateur can confirm to prevent this, guaranteed, with no ambiguity or uncertainty

Not sure what a qualified opinion of their solution is. But my unqualified opinion: I sure am not overly enthusiastic.

[Tawpie]

9 hours ago, techyiam said:

They can no longer say that the Hsiang demo wheel is a one off since it was improperly flashed

I must have missed this... at least in the official announcements?

 

9 hours ago, techyiam said:

They blamed everything on software

Likewise, I only recall them blaming the fire on software—I haven't seen the "why it cutout in the first place" report, nor have I seen the third party battery analysis (there may be physical things wrong with the pack as well). Besides—software always has problems so it's the logical place to look first.

 

9 hours ago, techyiam said:

What else did they not test, or test properly?

Plenty. Guaranteed.

And if we're shocked or angered by that, I think we need to step back and get a grip because inadequate testing is a fact of life. Having untested failure modes is not new. Not new for wheels, not new for rocket ships, or airplanes, or mobile phones, or cars, or training AI to curate your feed, or band aids or anything for that matter. Mistakes are made. Things you didn't expect are discovered. Sh*t happens. Nobody can anticipate everything, nobody is willing to test everything. We will never see a perfect product out of the lab, it has to get out in the real world. If it has software in it, there's a 99% chance it'll include undiscovered problems. Get used to it. Accept or refuse the risk. Vote with your pocketbook.

What I want to see is when mistakes are made, they are acknowledged and fixed. I want to see that internal processes are changed to reduce the frequency or severity of future mistakes. Future mistakes will happen. Up until this incident, we've gotten crickets and deflection from our beloved manufacturers. In addition to sitting on my high horse and declaring that I would have done so much better in my testing that this would never ever have happened, I should applaud KS for stepping up to the plate and eating crow and sharing what they did wrong and how they're trying to make it right. They demonstrated that the software fix prevents red hot nickel strips in the scenario they tested (inadequate as I may think it might be).

This is a huge step in the right direction, let's encourage openness. If we read a translated summary and respond by ripping them a new one because we can imagine how it could be improved, the typical human response is to close the kimono and return to secrecy.

Edited April 3, 2022 by Tawpie

[Tawpie]

I apologize for the rant. I agree 100% that KS needs to do better. Because of how they've handled this, I have confidence that they will. Let's see if their example can encourage the other manufacturers to do better as well. Please, let's keep the (constructive) pressure on... it's better for all of us in the long run.

[John A Peters]

Nice!

[Forwardnbak]

It’s just the rename for me that sits in my mouth wrong. 
 

it feels to me and others I think like avoidance and if this is their mentality, what else have the noticed and avoided doing during design. 

[Robse]

After reading a lot about problems with batteries, tires, joints, bumpers,

firmware, chargers etc. etc. on pretty much any wheel there is... including

a wheel that i then ended up not buying because there were unresolved issues

(blown mosfets.. no need to say more),   I now think that Kingsong deserves a little

praise for, after all, having taken care of the matter.  Thumbs up from here

 

 

 

[Sprite]

1 hour ago, Forwardnbak said:

It’s just the rename for me that sits in my mouth wrong. 
 

it feels to me and others I think like avoidance and if this is their mentality, what else have the noticed and avoided doing during design. 

Not just you, the rename isn't sitting right with me either and I'm thinking about canceling my preorder. Kind of reminds me of Comcast trying to rebrand as Xfinity because the Comcast name is so damaged.

[Finn Bjerke]

Kingsong are trying to camouflage the problem, they are not solving the problem.  Maybe theyll come up with a better solution in the coming days. Firmware upgrade is not enough. Interesting debate here:  A fuse is also needed. 

 

Edited April 3, 2022 by Finn Bjerke

[Paul A]

It would be disturbing if KS only changed the name, without any other substance.

Gotway has had the most fires.

Gotway changed their entire brand name to Begode.

 

Facebook changed their company name to Meta.

https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2021/10/28/facebook-changes-company-name-to-meta.html

OCT 29 2021

Facebook changes company name to Meta

But sceptics have suggested this is just an attempt to move attention away from the so-called Facebook papers.

The documents, leaked by a former Facebook employee, revealed how Facebook ignored or downplayed internal warnings about the negative and often harmful consequences its social network algorithms created or magnified across the world.

[Paul A]

Claim that KS is trying to camouflage the problem is supposition.

 

supposition

/ˌsʌpəˈzɪʃ(ə)n/

Learn to pronounce

 

noun

1. a belief held without proof or certain knowledge; an assumption or hypothesis.

   "they were working on the supposition that his death was murder"

[Mango]

Essentially, the S20 has been an overhyped and failed vapourware wheel that will never reach consumers.

Long live the S22.

I’d wait another year, or never, before buying the S22 because I don’t feel software fixes hardware problems. Shizzies about to hit the fizzie with KS in the coming months.

[Paul A]

If KS is merely making a name change without real efforts to ensure safety.....

If and when hundreds/thousands of S22s are released to many far away international markets....

And they start blowing up and flame throwing....

 

KS would suffer incredibly significant damage to intangible brand reputation, as well as tangible monetary loss in recalls.

KS have a lot at stake in ensuring the problem is actually fixed, and not just a name change to deceive customers in the short term.

[NErider]

I am NOT canceling my pre-order. This wheel is what I always wanted since the 1st moment I learned about EUC's. I have an S18 with a TR1 tire and Kingsong Power Pads. It's really close. And with the improvements in mechanics and design of  the S20 or S22 what ever they call it. I don't care. The thing is awesome. 

My take is that a pre production demo model was passed between multiple testers who crashed and abused it and it failed. No surprise. All EUC's are a risk. You need to be willing to accept the risks if you want to rip around on these crazy things. 

[Mango]

36 minutes ago, NErider said:

My take is that a pre production demo model was passed between multiple testers who crashed and abused it and it failed. No surprise. All EUC's are a risk. You need to be willing to accept the risks if you want to rip around on these crazy things. 

There are plenty of EUCs that have sustained crazy amounts of crashes, overleans, etc but they don’t spontaneously turn into a massive fireball. This may be the first pre-production EUC in history that had their battery blow up after an overpower situation / blown MOSFET.

If you are willing to take the risk, why not pre-order the Begode Master. Spec-wise, it trumps the S22 in almost every metric. I hope you are not buying the S22 based solely on looks.

[NErider]

I primarily ride off road. More than 80%. I see the suspension of the KS much closer in line with what I do. 

If I had to compare the two wheels to another vehical, I think of the Master as a Suburu WRX, and the S20 as Ford Raptor.

I dont believe the suspension of the Begode is really geared to being in the woods. It has a high speed rally car type look with its air canister shock and copy cat linkage. 

Also the typical wire management and overall quality for the money on a Begode hasn't really won me over. 

I am absolutely open to it. The display seems much better, there is probaby more power. But as of right now I am not totally sold on what Begode is offering as far as ride experience.