Kingsong S20/S22 (Confirmed)

[techyiam]

My guess would be a whole lot less cost. Nothing of precision of the sliding mechanism is required. Low stiction and smooth sliding action be damned. Total disregard for maintenance and service life considerations. Not much to engineer except for the spider. To be fair, I am excluding the rising rate links and shock.

Perhaps another factor could be related to production/assembly. It could be that the current S20 slider design may be easier and cheaper to get right during assembly than let's say a more expensive, but better design. Poorly assembled sliders could yield a similar or worse suspension performance. Good design go hand in hand with good production quality. This line of thinking could perhaps sway them to consider the current design. Perhaps they were looking for the right balance and struck too low.

Edited March 14, 2022 by techyiam

[Curt8892]

3 hours ago, techyiam said:

My guess would be a whole lot less cost. Nothing of precision of the sliding mechanism is required. Low stiction and smooth sliding action be damned. Total disregard for maintenance and service life considerations. Not much to engineer except for the spider. To be fair, I am excluding the rising rate links and shock.

Perhaps another factor could be related to production/assembly. It could be that the current S20 slider design may be easier and cheaper to get right during assembly than let's say a more expensive, but better design. Poorly assembled sliders could yield a similar or worse suspension performance. Good design go hand in hand with good production quality. This line of thinking could perhaps sway them to consider the current design. Perhaps they were looking for the right balance and struck too low.

Is there another design that would work with this quick tire replacement and height adjustment ability that this design offers. 
 

I am just thinking, you gain on modularity but loose on efficiency. Maybe we can not have everything in this current EUC market. If we ever got to the popularity of say bikes, then  we would get the best and at a good price. 
 

Just want to be positive and enjoy my wheel. I have a S18 and have not done anything to it except pads and it is doing it’s job. 

[Tawpie]

well, this isn't good, Shenzhen went into full lockdown until March 20 https://apple.news/AXlr1ONv7Q1W4Vp5ifzD1HQ

or, maybe it is good and KS will have a bit more time to noodle on things like grit in the suspension sliders! (covid coming back is never 'good' though, don't get me wrong)

Edited March 14, 2022 by Tawpie

[Rawnei]

11 minutes ago, Tawpie said:

well, this isn't good, Shenzhen went into full lockdown until March 20 https://apple.news/AXlr1ONv7Q1W4Vp5ifzD1HQ

or, maybe it is good and KS will have a bit more time to noodle on things like grit in the suspension sliders! (covid coming back is never 'good' though, don't get me wrong)

Someone on Telegram (3rd hand source) wrote that production was already a bit delayed anyway to fix some things (don't have the details exactly what), if that is the case no big difference but we might not get the first wheels until june worst case.

[Paul A]

Shenzhen likely to be affected by the covid surging in Hong Kong.

Vaccination rate in Hong Kong only 72.3% fully vaccinated.

 

USA is currently 65.8% fully vaccinated.

Currently 993, 811 fatalites, approaching 1 million.

[techyiam]

5 hours ago, Curt8892 said:

Is there another design that would work with this quick tire replacement and height adjustment ability that this design offers. 

That is the crazy thing. Neither Kingsong nor distributors / dealers have officially lay claim to the quick wheel removal feature. Kevin who helps Afeez Kay at e-rides removed the S20 wheel using the conventional method. Afeez has direct contact with Kingsong. The only person who has removed the wheel from the bottom that I am aware of is Wrongway. And he explicitly warned that that was the wrong way to do it. Also, the top rubber stopper attachment was damaged during the process. 

But with the use of permanent thread locking compound, it may not be that quick anyways for many.

My opinion is that the quick removal method is not tied to a particular slider design, as much as starting the design of the euc with quick wheel removal in mind at the outset. After all, for suspension to work, the wheel assembly need to slide down already.

As for suspension travel adjustment, that mainly has to do with providing more than one position for the shock links to attach to the slider. Again, to do it properly, this feature has to be set out to be included in the design right from the start. Clearances, rising rates, and etc. have to be taken into account.

I think at this point in time, the jury is still out on the theoretical possible quick wheel removal and suspension travel adjustment features since permanent thread locking compound is used. I think they are in a bind here. I have a feeling they can't really not use permanent thread locking compound with the little screws and the extruded metal battery box.

5 hours ago, Curt8892 said:

I am just thinking, you gain on modularity but loose on efficiency.

I suspect it has to do with cost more than anything else.

Edited March 14, 2022 by techyiam

[Curt8892]

44 minutes ago, techyiam said:

That is the crazy thing. Neither Kingsong nor distributors / dealers have officially lay claim to the quick wheel removal feature. Kevin who helps Afeez Kay at e-rides removed the S20 wheel using the conventional method. Afeez has direct contact with Kingsong. The only person who has removed the wheel from the bottom that I am aware of is Wrongway. And he explicitly warned that that was the wrong way to do it. Also, the top rubber stopper attachment was damaged during the process. 

But with the use of permanent thread locking compound, it may not be that quick anyways for many.

My opinion is that the quick removal method is not tied to a particular slider design, as much as starting the design of the euc with quick wheel removal in mind at the outset. After all, for suspension to work, the wheel assembly need to slide down already.

As for suspension travel adjustment, that mainly has to do with providing more than one position for the shock links to attach to the slider. Again, to do it properly, this feature has to be set out to be included in the design right from the start. Clearances, rising rates, and etc. have to be taken into account.

I think at this point in time, the jury is still out on the theoretical possible quick wheel removal and suspension travel adjustment features since permanent thread locking compound is used. I think they are in a bind here. I have a feeling they can't really not use permanent thread locking compound with the little screws and the extruded metal battery box.

I suspect it has to do with cost more than anything else.

I thought that the height adjustment was the key to fast wheel change as other than the three bolts connecting the suspension to the wheel frame I did not see anything else attaching the wheel/frame/fender to the battery frame. This video was the first one that commented on the height adjustment of the wheel. 

 

It also does not make any sense to have four more holes for adjustment of the height if that was not the plan.

 

Also in WW video he has the suspension pulled apart but later you see that he unscrewed the three screws. Why would you pull the suspension apart when the three screws would be enough to release the suspension from the wheel.

 

I am try hard to understand why no one has shown the complete method of the tear down process.  Everyone is complaining about lock tight.

 

Video (comments about height adjustment is close to the end)

 

Edited March 14, 2022 by Curt8892

[Miko.cz]

41 minutes ago, techyiam said:

That is the crazy thing. Neither Kingsong nor distributors / dealers have officially lay claim to the quick wheel removal feature. ...

Just adding some note to this swap topic:

• Jack about tire swap (pre-prototype days): YT Mike old video.
• Ekolka YT video how to swap the tire.

[fryman]

37 minutes ago, Curt8892 said:

I thought that the height adjustment was the key to fast wheel change as other than the three bolts connecting the suspension to the wheel frame I did not see anything else attaching the wheel/frame/fender to the battery frame. This video was the first one that commented on the height adjustment of the wheel. 

 

It also does not make any sense to have four more holes for adjustment of the height if that was not the plan.

 

Also in WW video he has the suspension pulled apart but later you see that he unscrewed the three screws. Why would you pull the suspension apart when the three screws would be enough to release the suspension from the wheel.

 

I am try hard to understand why no one has shown the complete method of the tear down process.  Everyone is complaining about lock tight.

 

Video (comments about height adjustment is close to the end)

 

They talk about the suspension adjustment at 34:28

[techyiam]

7 hours ago, Curt8892 said:

I thought that the height adjustment was the key to fast wheel change as other than the three bolts connecting the suspension to the wheel frame I did not see anything else attaching the wheel/frame/fender to the battery frame. This video was the first one that commented on the height adjustment of the wheel. 

 

It also does not make any sense to have four more holes for adjustment of the height if that was not the plan.

 

Also in WW video he has the suspension pulled apart but later you see that he unscrewed the three screws. Why would you pull the suspension apart when the three screws would be enough to release the suspension from the wheel.

 

I am try hard to understand why no one has shown the complete method of the tear down process.  Everyone is complaining about lock tight.

 

Video (comments about height adjustment is close to the end)

 

There were already a discussion on the suspension travel adjustment feature on the S20. It is certainly possible. But no one actually is showing the process in details. It is either already apart or the bolts already lossen.  And there is no official word on the travel adjustment other than what was in the original promotional material. 

For the bottom-out wheel removal method, the suspension travel adjustment block doesn't need to be removed. Wrong way and others have chosen to remove the bolts from the suspension pivot joints instead. Then they come back to the adjustment block after the wheel is out. It is indeed confusing. 

 

 

 

 

[fbhb]

King Song International just posted this announcement on Facebook today, with regard to the current COVID spread in Shenzhen China, unfortunately affecting the production schedule of the S20 with even further delays:

 

Edited March 15, 2022 by fbhb

[techyiam]

7 hours ago, Miko.cz said:

Just adding some note to this swap topic:

• Jack about tire swap (pre-prototype days): YT Mike old video.
• Ekolka YT video how to swap the tire.

Thanks for the links.

As to the S20 launch podcast, Jack basically speculated as to how hard it would be to remove the wheel, since he himself has never remove one before on the S20. Nothing here of value pertaining to wheel removal since videos are already out on this. 

The wheel removal portion of the Ekolka video is of value since they made it clear that the bottom-out wheel removal method for the S20 is not a quick and easy task at all. They also spoke about having to remove the fender, and the suspension links and shock sub-assembly. The suspension travel adjustment block was not removed initially. They came for it afterwards. At least based on the experiences of both Wrongway and Ekolka on the pre-production S20, I am no longer going to refer to it as the quick and easy wheel removal method.

[Wolverine]

Don’t be sad, here's something to cheer you up:

[Paul A]

The King Song International YouTube channel usually uploads an assembly/disassembly video for their wheels in due course.

They have done so for the S18, 16x, 14..

[fryman]

Have no idea if space would allow for brush weather stripping on each side of the slider channels similar to this.

 

[FrenchUsa]

On 3/10/2022 at 8:10 PM, Paradox said:

Interesting WW said he mounted the foot plates backwards and it improved the ride. 

This review done by French man had to switch foot plates for a better experience.

Nice to be bilingual . He can be very annoying since he talk like Poetry, he can be to much but still good reviews!

 

 

[Paul A]

Speedy Feet's opinion of teardowns.

 

https://www.youtube.com/post/UgkxEh6bMLFGvLUzWjnqYqEbbUhTMNXXK5cc

Speedy Feet UK

5 hours ago (edited)

 

Brilliant news its all crashed then!

Tear downs are not something we find useful, in terms of real life usage; what we find useful is riding wheels to 1000km to quality check them, year after year model after model this as been proved to be THE way to quality check.

Getting a new wheel, tearing it apart and guessing what will last and what wont isn’t the most accurate; if it lasts 1000km with no issues, you can be pretty sure its all good! Thats the aim of our videos.

We do repair videos as well as, now those kinds can be useful because they handle issues that many come across.

As for pure teardowns without cause; not something we can afford to spend $$$ on as well.

[conecones]

2 hours ago, Paul A said:

Speedy Feet's opinion of teardowns.

 

https://www.youtube.com/post/UgkxEh6bMLFGvLUzWjnqYqEbbUhTMNXXK5cc

Speedy Feet UK

5 hours ago (edited)

 

Brilliant news its all crashed then!

Tear downs are not something we find useful, in terms of real life usage; what we find useful is riding wheels to 1000km to quality check them, year after year model after model this as been proved to be THE way to quality check.

Getting a new wheel, tearing it apart and guessing what will last and what wont isn’t the most accurate; if it lasts 1000km with no issues, you can be pretty sure its all good! Thats the aim of our videos.

We do repair videos as well as, now those kinds can be useful because they handle issues that many come across.

As for pure teardowns without cause; not something we can afford to spend $$$ on as well.

I usually find Speedy Feet good at providing common-sense advice, but his comment above misses the mark on multiple levels. The Inmotion V12 disaster is exactly why teardowns need to be taken more seriously - many riding reviewers with many kms all gave the thumbs up. The one ECODRIFT teardown showing concern with 100V mosfets did not get much attention - likely many customers looked the other way/didn't care (myself included) because the "working wheel" spoke for itself. 

Other issues with Speedy Feet's logic:
- Sample size of one. Yes, it's the same with a tear-down but you can get overall idea of build quality and design choices that would be similar across all units. You can't get this info by just riding it.
- If the wheel breaks down before 1000km, you'll want to know why right? Which means a teardown anyways. Why not do it first to reduce risk of riding a potentially faulty wheel for 1000kms? If it does break down before 1000kms, wouldn't it be useful to know what the insides looked like BEFORE it broke?
- A teardown costs time, but the wheel can still be sold after, so there is no significant $$$ loss. Yes, time is money, but how much time was just spent riding 1000kms? A teardown is a few hrs, much faster than riding 1000kms.

If they were going to spend the many, many hours to ride 1000kms to test the wheel, they can spare the few hrs of time to do a teardown. The main caveat of teardowns is that it depends heavily on the experience and knowledge of the person doing said teardown. Since this can vary significantly between each reviewer, we might get some misleading information, for example Adam from WW with no background in EE or involvement in designing the S20 mainboard, should not be commenting on the fuse specification. Even so, the images/video provided by the teardown is extremely useful for the community and the community shared experience/knowledge can more than make up for knowledge gaps of one reviewer.

[Tawpie]

I too think there's value in teardowns, but rarely agree that making a technical judgement of goodness or badness is possible from simply looking at things. We don't have enough information to be able to "know" something is good or bad, all we can do is say "it has these parts" and "it's put together this way". I mean, if you don't understand what a suspension is for you might complain that a suspension wheel is loose in the up-down direction and this is simply terrible because wheels are supposed to be rigidly fixed to the body so you have control.

Finding things like the permanent locktite or missing cable tiedowns or big holes for water to come in or 100V parts in a 100.8V circuit are things should raise your eyebrows, but I don't know that you have enough information from just looking at it to claim it's a priori "bad". Just because blue shrinkwrap was how batteries have been packaged in the past doesn't mean that blue shrinkwrap was a good or adequate solution that must be carried forward in order for the design to be solid.

The reason I like Ecodrift teardowns is because they don't add as many editorial "uhm... yeah" comments, and they point out areas that could use improvement so you as the buyer can act accordingly.

Edited March 16, 2022 by Tawpie

[Rawnei]

If nobody did the teardowns it would take longer time to find things that is already going to get fixed like the screws, motor cable cover, etc. only made possible from finding those things in a teardown and fixed already in first batch.

[supercurio]

SpeedyFeet approach is usually fine thanks to others completing teardowns which are filmed or not.
However it's kind of comical how their general conclusion is "no problem whatsoever" with every wheel.
To the point they're still continuing publishing raving riding reviews on their "absolutely flawless" V12 which we know should not be ridden before a motherboard upgrade.

There's a lot to learn from their coverage, but not about technical or maintenance issues.
They highlighted range concerns very well still.

I hope that Ecodrift will get a S20 unit to analyze.

[RagingGrandpa]

10 minutes ago, supercurio said:

I hope that Ecodrift will get a S20 unit to analyze.

Likewise. But they're in Moscow... and now is a bad time to own a business there  

[UniMe]

Now that the flurry of suspension posts have cooled...

Does anyone have a thought on the hall sensor redundancy and if this may have something to do with the wheel being slow off the line?

As I (in a very limited way) understand, there is an old style hall sensor that is in direct contact with the motor. This sensor is responsible for starting the wheel. Once the wheel is up to speed (whatever that means, exactly) then the contactless hall sensor takes over. This sensor is more robust and less prone to catastrophic failure.

I'm wondering if this transition from the old to new hall sensor can only occur under certain motor loads, or below a certain speed. Or, if the older hall sensor responsible for starting the wheel up is somehow under performing...?

[techyiam]

10 minutes ago, UniMe said:

Now that the flurry of suspension posts have cooled...

Does anyone have a thought on the hall sensor redundancy and if this may have something to do with the wheel being slow off the line?

As I (in a very limited way) understand, there is an old style hall sensor that is in direct contact with the motor. This sensor is responsible for starting the wheel. Once the wheel is up to speed (whatever that means, exactly) then the contactless hall sensor takes over. This sensor is more robust and less prone to catastrophic failure.

I'm wondering if this transition from the old to new hall sensor can only occur under certain motor loads, or below a certain speed. Or, if the older hall sensor responsible for starting the wheel up is somehow under performing...?

I highly doubt it. @Jack ex-KS  has stated in his latest S20 review video, it was due to the limiting of the current through the mosfets. This was done in order to protect them. And he said in the video that, that was what was explained to him.

Edited March 17, 2022 by techyiam

[fbhb]

2 hours ago, UniMe said:

As I (in a very limited way) understand, there is an old style hall sensor that is in direct contact with the motor. This sensor is responsible for starting the wheel. Once the wheel is up to speed (whatever that means, exactly) then the contactless hall sensor takes over. This sensor is more robust and less prone to catastrophic failure.

As I understand it, the Hall sensor is used all the time and the "sensor less" mode (back-EMF sensing) is used ONLY as a backup, in case of Hall sensor failure!

 

Edited March 17, 2022 by fbhb